Off topic discussion about reviews and MSRP

[Shakatak]

Hello All

In any price comparison, MSRP as well as everyday street price should be included, to provide a true comparison.

 

[9f9c7z]

... MSRP, joke or not, is the fairest measuring stick to gauge to which consumer these speakers are targeted. The fact that they can be had for lower is immaterial.

I kind of disagree. I don't think the MSRP is a fair measuring stick if the MSRP is not reality. I subscribe to a publication that does unbiased evaluations of marine products. They list the price they paid and the name of the place/business they purchased the item from. It gives you a ball parked estimate of what the item really costs (street price), what you could expect to pay. That’s what matters. They do not shop for the lowest price, that’s up to you to do. And like Consumer Reports, they do not accept advertising.

I think it is important to indicate the source of the samples being tested, lest you preserve the suspicion of quid pro quo. But since Audioholics accepts advertising $$$, any suggestion of unbiased evaluations becomes a moot point, anyway.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I kind of disagree. I don't think the MSRP is a fair measuring stick if the MSRP is not reality. I subscribe to a publication that does unbiased evaluations of marine products. They list the price they paid and the name of the place/business they purchased the item from. It gives you a ball parked estimate of what the item really costs (street price), what you could expect to pay. That’s what matters. They do not shop for the lowest price, that’s up to you to do. And like Consumer Reports, they do not accept advertising.

I think it is important to indicate the source of the samples being tested, lest you preserve the suspicion of quid pro quo. But since Audioholics accepts advertising $$$, any suggestion of unbiased evaluations becomes a moot point, anyway.

It's probably not fair to list "street" price when reviewing products. Manufacturers have their own ideas why they list msrp where they do.
Many sell at msrp (SVS), while others are a fraction of msrp (BIC). I can see RLA's point.

I'm pretty confident everyone will know the street price soon after the model numbers are posted and the review is completed.

I think this is an excellent idea to review 4 completely different, very reasonably priced bookshelves. I'm betting there will be huge differences right off the bat.

 

[9f9c7z]

I guess it depends on the targeted audience or benefactor of the reviewer. If you are reviewing spkrs to the benefit of the manfr, listing the MSRP makes sense because that is what the manfr would like to promote as the cost of their product. If you are reviewing for the benefit of consumers, a realistic expectation of what the consumer would pay (not necessarily the MSRP) makes more sense.

 

[HookedOnSound]

MSRP is the best yard stick to compare with. MSRP's are set by the mfg's for various reasons such a marketing, brand comparison shopping, etc. But you can bet it's done for their own interests first and not the general public.

Most ppl shop with a budget in mind and is their first criteria. Whether or not they have the resources and/or skill to research a better price is totally unpredictable.

I'm with RLA on this one.

 

[9f9c7z]

Doesn’t matter. Still comes back around to whom is intended to benefit form the review, the manf or the consumer, you can’t have it both ways. Manfs need their MSRPs marketed, consumers need realistic expectation of what they should expect to pay. Even Consumer Reports rounds out the prices they list for ‘retail’ without quoting MSRP...because that’s what consumers need. But then CR might also be a little bit different because it doesn’t have a bias or allegiance toward a specific manfr or any industry as a whole.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Doesn’t matter. Still comes back around to whom is intended to benefit form the review, the manf or the consumer, you can’t have it both ways. Manfs need their MSRPs marketed, consumers need realistic expectation of what they should expect to pay. Even Consumer Reports rounds out the prices they list for ‘retail’ without quoting MSRP...because that’s what consumers need. But then CR might also be a little bit different because it doesn’t have a bias or allegiance toward a specific manfr or any industry as a whole.[/

Great point, 9f

I'd like to know how much advertising dollars each of the contestants has given towards this site. Should that be public knowledge?

What would happen if BIC advertised as much as Axiom does here, and Axiom was never in the loop? Could that affect the outcome?

Will we see any negatives on the Axiom bookshelf? If we do (which I'm sure there are - few bookshelves produce excellent bass), to what degree?

How'd you like to do an open review of your immediate higher up versus a competitor's manager? Yikes!

 

[Tex-amp]

I have to say that sometimes the MSRP is the sales strategy. It is the mark it up to mark it down technique. It plants the idea of their value being twice what you are paying.

I think price is a sales strategy on the high end too. I've heard really good speakers that get little respect from the audiophools because they aren't priced high enough. I've also heard speakers that were nothing special that get respect due to their price point. But does anyone really think that putting a wood veneer on a monitor cabinet and putting another $100 into the drivers commands an extra $1000-1200 even with marking up the extra costs 3 to 4 times? $800-900 as the price for that product I can see. $1,500 a pair is a fat extra profit on top. On the other hand, do you have to have a $1,500 price tag to get taken seriously? Ever notice how few monitors there are between the $5-600 price point and the $1,500 point? And how many there are on each side of that price range?

 

[surveyor]

University of Texas- unofficial Big Ten champs 2005!

You will make the OSU (big 10) fans mad!

 

[Xsound]

If you don't like the way the review is being handled, start your own site full of journalistic integrity, and conduct the reviews the "right way." Please get a life.

Whether people actually pay MSRP or not, doesn't really matter. When a manufacturer sets a price for a product, they set their product in the ring with other products in that price range.

And by the way, consumer reports sucks!

 

[Tom Andry]

Doesn’t matter. Still comes back around to whom is intended to benefit form the review, the manf or the consumer, you can’t have it both ways. Manfs need their MSRPs marketed, consumers need realistic expectation of what they should expect to pay.

When I include the MSRP in my reviews, it is definitely NOT to benefit the manufacturers. The fact is the MSRP is a stable metric. The MSRP rarely changes. The street prices change weekly/daily/hourly. When you give the MSRP, the reader knows they should pay no MORE than that price. If I listed the priced I saw the product listed from an unauthorized dealer based out of bankok without listed the exuberant (and overly inflated) shipping price, the reader would have an unrealistic expectation on what something costs.

But since Audioholics accepts advertising $$$, any suggestion of unbiased evaluations becomes a moot point, anyway.

This is an absurd statement. What you should have said, “But since Audioholics accepts advertising $$$, the perception of unbiased evaluations becomes more suspect.” To suggest that a publication or anyone really MUST be biased because they accept money from advertisers is ridiculous. I’ve done many software reviews and am currently branching out to hardware reviews for this site. Never has either Gene or Clint balked at any of my reviews, positive or negative. They print my reviews basically as is with little editing (most of which is for my excessive us of the words “subtle” and for run-on sentences).

The truth of the matter is that Audioholics only has those manufacturers with quality products as advertisers, because they are the only ones that get the good reviews. Does this limit the pool of potential advertisers? Yes. Does this mean that they provide overly glowing reviews for those manufacturer’s products? Emphatically NO. And I, personally, resent the implication…mostly because I wouldn’t be associated with a publication that operated is such a manner.

And by the way, consumer reports sucks!

No they don’t.

 

[9f9c7z]

Bias??? Probably...maybe...absolutely???

If you don't like the way the review is being handled, start your own site full of journalistic integrity, and conduct the reviews the "right way." Please get a life. ...

Don’t have to. This is a perfectly good venue with a forum for discussing such things. Discussing this, or anything here, creates ‘hits’ to the postings counter. That postings counter is often used to determine the value/cost of compensation for advertising on web sites. Any participation in this, or any other forum, creates the opportunity for increased advertising revenue for the forum owner(s). Forums are not free to operate. So as long as the discussion is civil, Xsound, this forum as a whole benefits from this (and any other) topic being discussed.

And if it helps, none of us have seen the review yet. The previous review that RLA did on the Velo subw was outstanding, couldn’t imagine his dinky-spkr shootout being anything less.

When I include the MSRP in my reviews, it is definitely NOT to benefit the manufacturers.

Myself, or anyone else that is not in the executive circle of Audioholics, has no way of knowing if this is true. I can only presume that it is, because you said it is.

The fact is the MSRP is a stable metric.

The MSRP is a stable metric of what the manfr would like the market to perceived as the value of their product, nothing more. It is like the use of the word ‘value’. It does not necessarily equate into reality.

The MSRP rarely changes. The street prices change weekly/daily/hourly.

Exactly! The stable metric (MSRP) has little real-world value to consumers.

Example: company “X” manf and distributes their product online. The price is fixed at $1000 MSRP, no negotiating. Company “Y” manf and distributes their $1200 MSRP competing product thru retailers and discount websites with a typical street price of around $800, give or take. Both products get identical reviews. From the reviews, the “X” product at $1000 would appear to be the better buy, but the “Y” product at $800 is actually the better value, but the reader of the reviews wouldn’t know that.

I guess one could make the argument that the use of MSRP’s could be misleading in a market where the products are routinely discounted, as they are with entertainment-ware.

Of the reputable, bona fide organizations that I know of that do unbiased evaluations of products, they all have three things in common:

(1) They do not accept any form of advertising.

(2) They publish realistic prices a consumer would expect to pay, not the MSRP.

(3) They do not accept free samples for evaluation.

Any compromise to any of those three points will create the opportunity for the perception of biased reviewing, regardless of whether or not any bias actually exists, hence, any suggestion of unbiased evaluations becomes a moot point.

“But since Audioholics accepts advertising $$$, any suggestion of unbiased evaluations becomes a moot point…”

“But since Audioholics accepts advertising $$$, the perception of unbiased evaluations becomes more suspect.”

Both statements say the same thing. You were just able to say it with one less word.

The truth of the matter is that Audioholics only has those manufacturers with quality products as advertisers, because they are the only ones that get the good reviews.

The truth of the matter is that we don’t know what the truth of the matter is. I can’t, no one can, except those in the executive circle…unless Audioholics wants to subscribe to the three points listed above. Absent that, any suggestion of unbiased evaluations becomes a moot point.

The #1 Buckeyefan brought up a salient point. Without quantifying and/or qualifying the advertising income, any evaluation of advertised products here is very suspect, indeed. And thus, I (anyone/everyone) has to wonder about the integrity of the reviews here for non-advertising manfr’s products.

How a forum is administered will also affect its perception for bias. I had a problem with SVS, one of the worst experiences I have ever had with any company in my life, and I started a thread here based on that problem. Admin for this forum took it upon themselves to rename the thread, reword my posting, and they even went so far as to create a whole new, non-existent problem (that I wasn’t having with SVS) and embedded that factious issue it into my posting. SVS is an advertiser here. Based on my experience, it appears to me there is a tremendous bias toward the advertisers on Audioholics, at least toward SVS. Otherwise, why would Audioholics’ admin care what my beef with SVS was?!?

Also, I posted some possible corrections/updates to the pre/pro matrix here. My input was ignored, the matrix not updated. If I think there are errors in that matrix for the product I am familiar with, I have to wonder what errors are in there for the pre/pros I am not familiar with. In other words, I suggest totally disregarding the pre/pro matrix on Audioholics for comparing products. We have no way to know its accuracy, only that errors may exist...perhaps to bias in favor of an advertiser's product?!? ... I don't know.

All-in-all, Audioholics is a great website. And what makes it great are the members on the forums, their knowledge and their willingness to freely share that knowledge and their experience. Over the last couple of days I have been reading some of your reviews of multi-chan software. Good stuff!!! As far as the hardware evaluations go, I recommend anyone/everyone take those reviews with a grain of salt. Whenever any publication (website or printed) accepts advertising and publishes an evaluation, common sense dictates the necessity of the salt. So with that in mind, you should include (or exclude) whatever price(s) you are most comfortable with.

 

[malvado78]

I will solve your problem. Go out and find the prioces on the internet. I'm sure they are out there. Then you will know both the MSRP and the street price. It really isn't that big of deal. If it makes you feel even better you can come and post those price in this thread to let everyone who cares know what the best prices you found these speakers for.

 

[Tom Andry]

“But since Audioholics accepts advertising $$$, any suggestion of unbiased evaluations becomes a moot point…”

“But since Audioholics accepts advertising $$$, the perception of unbiased evaluations becomes more suspect.”

Both statements say the same thing. You were just able to say it with one less word.

There is a huge difference between saying that Audioholic's reviews are definitely biased (your statement) and that they have an increased perception of bias (my statement). May be one word, but it is an important one.

The truth of the matter is that we don’t know what the truth of the matter is. I can’t, no one can, except those in the executive circle…unless Audioholics wants to subscribe to the three points listed above. Absent that, any suggestion of unbiased evaluations becomes a moot point.

Also, I posted some possible corrections/updates to the pre/pro matrix here. My input was ignored, the matrix not updated. If I think there are errors in that matrix for the product I am familiar with, I have to wonder what errors are in there for the pre/pros I am not familiar with. In other words, I suggest totally disregarding the pre/pro matrix on Audioholics for comparing products. We have no way to know its accuracy, only that errors may exist...perhaps to bias in favor of an advertiser's product?!? ... I don't know.

No, the truth of the matter is you don't know what is going on at consumer reports or that other company any more than you know what is going on at Audioholics. You PERCEIVE less bias because there are no ads, but the manufacturers could be slipping them money under the table. You are taking them at their word that there is no bias, so why shouldn't you take me at mine? Audioholics has never shied away from a bad review or controversy (check out our cable articles).

As for your corrections/updates, check out my first post on this site. You'll see I had some suggestions as well. They didn't answer my suggestion either. Perhaps we should start some sort of support group? Once we figure out how to clone Gene and Clint and couple of hundred times, maybe they will be able to answer every email and thoroughly investigate every suggestion. At some point, they have to do reviews.

As for disregarding the pre/pro matrix – it’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation (bringing me back to my first post in this thread). If you don’t offer a comparison, people scream for it and claim you are biased for not doing one. If you offer one, they nitpick it and say it needs to be overhauled or eliminated. Ray here is doing a review of some speakers (a shoot out no less which I KNOW people have been asking for forever). He was nice enough to give a preview of what’s to come, and within 5 posts, people start finding faults with the review.

Believe me, if Gene and Clint were monks, living lives of chastity and solitude in the Tibetan mountains, testing equipment they purchased from $ made before the dotbombs, someone would have a reason to call them bias.

 

[gene]

(1) They do not accept any form of advertising.

(2) They publish realistic prices a consumer would expect to pay, not the MSRP.

(3) They do not accept free samples for evaluation.

Any compromise to any of those three points will create the opportunity for the perception of biased reviewing, regardless of whether or not any bias actually exists, hence, any suggestion of unbiased evaluations becomes a moot point.

Sounds like you would be much happier reading consumer reports. I recommend you subscribe there, from what I can remember it isn't that expensive and they have nice 1-2 paragraph reviews that objectively analyze products

Also, I posted some possible corrections/updates to the pre/pro matrix here. My input was ignored, the matrix not updated. If I think there are errors in that matrix for the product I am familiar with, I have to wonder what errors are in there for the pre/pros I am not familiar with. In other words, I suggest totally disregarding the pre/pro matrix on Audioholics for comparing products. We have no way to know its accuracy, only that errors may exist...perhaps to bias in favor of an advertiser's product?!? ... I don't know.

Admin for this forum took it upon themselves to rename the thread, reword my posting, and they even went so far as to create a whole new, non-existent problem (that I wasn’t having with SVS) and embedded that factious issue it into my posting. SVS is an advertiser here. Based on my experience, it appears to me there is a tremendous bias toward the advertisers on Audioholics, at least toward SVS. Otherwise, why would Audioholics’ admin care what my beef with SVS was?!?

Ah more false assumptions again. You know the old saying about making assumptions Neither myself or Clint are aware of this. We do have many mods and perhaps your tone was inappropriate. Send me the thread info so it can be examined.

All in all it seems like you have a little axe to grind. We neither have the time nor desire to debate your false assumptions about our alleged biases. If you don't find our 15+ page reviews with objective measurements, facts and analysis useful, you can always turn to a print magazines glossy 2 pager that combines unrelated products into one review, or again GOTO Consumer Reports. We will however address any misinformation in our checklist that you claimed to have noticed since despite your assumptions, we are very meticulous about publishing accurate information.

Again I recommend Consumer Reports. They give nice circle graphic ratings for each of their categories.

Did you even bother to email us about the so called errors you found on the product you own listed in this chart? If it was in a forum thread, it may have been overlooked. It is sometimes difficult to keep track of forum posts, 100s of daily emails, while running the industries largest home theater review site Feel free to email me the issues at: gds@audioholics.com and I will update the checklist if it does in fact warrant updating. Isn't this more productive and beneficial to all than making false assumptions?

This checklist was created long after the review samples were in house so all we had to go by was what our reviewers recalled from their experience and review.

All-in-all, Audioholics is a great website.

Are you sure? Biases included

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I get a red chicklet at 2:31pm on this thread for asking a question? Please. If you can't ask questions, why bother with a forum?

This was the response in my user cp rating:

"its so easy to question ethics when you're not involved"

So should we assume the person making this comment is involved? I would only hope people don't need to question themselves about ethics.

 

[Audioholics]

I think it's a conspiracy. Call your congressman.

 

[mulester7]

.....we ALL, have a +/- db difference concerning our hearing perceptions top-to-bottom....one full-range speaker could sound magnificent to one person, and the same full-range speaker sound quite decent to another, but in no way attain a level of magnificance....sound quality must be experienced by each individual's ears in making decisions to lay out money....

.....along the same lines, being in this hobby much longer than someone else, does not bring any magic to the hearing of....just because one might have learned a few terms to interpret or classify what is being heard, in no way does that mean someone else who just got into this hobby yesterday can't hear the same sound qualities....imo, we need to take what is said at this site as opinion only, to be applied as possibly, let's say, a guidance tool....to purchase equipment based solely from another's preference, stands a very good chance of bringing disappointment down the line, quite probably all too soon....it doesn't really matter what is said at this site, by anyone, since no one, can put a gun to our heads to purchase what they might prefer or endorse....nor should it really matter how they arrived at their preference....the individual's ears should decide, when money is being spent......

 

[Xsound]

I didn't intend to come off as less than civil, though after reading my post I can see how it may have come across that way. must admit I was a little bothered by the way the thread seemed to progress from this review will be great, to it will be good but you should do it the way i want it done, to well they aren't doing it the way I think they should so I will cast aspersions on their integrity.

though I am not interested in any of these speakers, I am excited about this review for several reasons. One of them being that in the past Audioholics has, as I understand it, purposefully stayed away from shootout style reviews. I know that they have done them, i.e. the bookshelf shootout where the audioholics staff was first introduced to the M22 in a shootout with MA, RBH & other speakers, but fairly infrequently. I would hate for them to shelve the shootout idea because people are more interested in *****ing about formats and biases, than the actual reviews.

Once again, apologies for a less than civil tone. I must admit tha I still believe that Consumer reports sucks (though I still read it), especially in the realm of audio equipment reviews.

 

[Daz3d&Confus3d]

I for one, am looking forward to the review!!!