no bass using analog outs

[supervij]

I've recently noticed (I can't believe it took me so long to notice!) that my receiver doesn't seem to accept any LFE or bass when it comes to its multi channel analog inputs. So when I listen to SACD or DVD-A, my sub gets absolutely no signal. If I listen to DTS music with receiver accepting digital input, the sub gets a workout. But the same DTS music with receiver accepting multi channel analog input, the sub doesn't even turn on.

A friend suggested two options, and wanted to get some advice on how good these options are.

1. I can set my fronts (go down to 35 Hz) as "large" and keep my centre (down to 60 Hz) and surrounds (down to 50 Hz) as "small".

2. I can send a cable going from my player's sub output directly to my sub. I'm thinking the sub would receive a pretty weak signal from the player, considering it's not being amplified or powered by my receiver. I'm also concerned about . . . I dunno . . . something melting, or shorting out, or something bad happening with this option. Is it doable?

There was a third option of hooking up my sub to my fronts using speaker wire, but I've enough of a cable/wire mess back there, and it's enough of a pain to clean. I don't wanna add to the mess back there.

The first option I'm gonna try for a while, but I wanted to hear opinions on both options. Thanks so much, guys!

cheers,
supervij

 

[Methost]

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14516

This thread may shed a light on your problem. I have not made my coneections yet so Im not sure whats going to happen when I try the same thing.

I read this to mean that using a DVD player to play SACD requires some sort of bass managment. This seems silly to me. Whats the point of having all the analog outs and ins if this doesnt work for bass?

 

[supervij]

I did see that previous thread earlier, but for some reason, didn't connect it to my situation. And it is silly. We've got 7.1 analog inputs on our receivers. One of them clearly says "Subwoofer", and yet it seems I could have it plugged in or not, it would make no difference. Frickin' ridiculous!

Before I even think of dropping $250 on the Outlaw thing, I'd like to see what else I can do first. I'm still thinking of option one on my original post. Would this really give garbage sound, as someone stated in that other thread? Are there any other options I've overlooked?

cheers,
supervij

 

[BGLeduc]

First, what player are you using? Knowing what you have will be helpful. And I assume you have made sure you don't have a bad cable?

If not, I will bet dollars to donuts that the problem is your player. Many universal players have a problem with the sub output channel, such that it is very low relative to the main channels, as much as 10dB.

If you search the term "Low LFE" at the Home Theater Forum or at AVS, you will get dozens, if not hundreds of hits.

Putting that aside, you want to be sure your player is set with all main channels to small, and subwoofer turned on. If it has internal channel trims, start be setting them all equal. Then, using a test disc (I recommend the Chesky Ultimate DVD-A), run the channel balance tones.

If you have the common problem, you will see that the sub is getting a signal, but its extremely low. The solution is to get some gain in the sub channel. That may or may not be doable, depending on your gear (you would need channel adjustments for the 5.1 analogs on either the player, receiver, or both), but that is the only way to solve it, if this is in fact the problem.

Brian

 

[j_garcia]

If not, I will bet dollars to donuts that the problem is your player. Many universal players have a problem with the sub output channel, such that it is very low relative to the main channels, as much as 10dB.

Not as much as, it is EXACTLY -10dB. DD and DTS tracks have a built in +10dB offset that is factored into them during processing. Hires DVD-A and SACD do not, thus the seeming lack of bass. Some players and receivers have functions in them to accommodate this, such as many Denon receivers and DVD players, because this is a known issue. One solution, as mentioned in the mentioned thread is to use an Outlaw ICBM.

 

[shokhead]

I've recently noticed (I can't believe it took me so long to notice!) that my receiver doesn't seem to accept any LFE or bass when it comes to its multi channel analog inputs. So when I listen to SACD or DVD-A, my sub gets absolutely no signal. If I listen to DTS music with receiver accepting digital input, the sub gets a workout. But the same DTS music with receiver accepting multi channel analog input, the sub doesn't even turn on.

A friend suggested two options, and wanted to get some advice on how good these options are.

1. I can set my fronts (go down to 35 Hz) as "large" and keep my centre (down to 60 Hz) and surrounds (down to 50 Hz) as "small".

2. I can send a cable going from my player's sub output directly to my sub. I'm thinking the sub would receive a pretty weak signal from the player, considering it's not being amplified or powered by my receiver. I'm also concerned about . . . I dunno . . . something melting, or shorting out, or something bad happening with this option. Is it doable?

There was a third option of hooking up my sub to my fronts using speaker wire, but I've enough of a cable/wire mess back there, and it's enough of a pain to clean. I don't wanna add to the mess back there.

The first option I'm gonna try for a while, but I wanted to hear opinions on both options. Thanks so much, guys!

cheers,
supervij

This,that,buy. Geez. Just set the sub channel abit higher in the player DVD-A/SACD menu. Snap.

 

[j_garcia]

Not all players will allow you to do that. Case in point, my 2900, in which you can only LOWER various levels from 0, not raise them. That means I have to lower all the other channels to match the sub's level, then crank it on my receiver. I ended up splitting the difference by lowering individual levels on the 2900 and raising the sub's at the receiver for the multichannel input.

 

[Tomorrow]

Putting that aside, you want to be sure your player is set with all main channels to small, and subwoofer turned on. If it has internal channel trims, start be setting them all equal. Then, using a test disc (I recommend the Chesky Ultimate DVD-A), run the channel balance tones.


Brian

I have to agree this should be your first step. Go into the player settings menu and double check that the sub is turned on and the mains are set correctly. Sometimes with power outages, players reset themselves to factory defaults (or perhaps it has always performed this way?).

 

[supervij]

Wow, lots of responses -- thanks, everyone!

Well, I can tell you that the configuration of my player (all my gear is listed in my sig, by the way) has all my speakers as "small" and my subwoofer as "on". Brian and shokhead, I can set the speaker distances, but I can't adjust anything for the sub -- it's either "on" or "off". Even when I set all my speaker distances as one foot away, the sub still doesn't receive any signal.

The cables going from the player to the receiver -- I swapped the one for the sub and the one for the centre, and the centre played just fine, so as far as I can see, no, it's not a bad cable.

Okay. Now here's the part I hate -- admitting my own ignorance. Of course, compared to most of you guys on AH, I have nothing but ignorance, so it's okay. See, I had always thought that when using the multi channel inputs, I'm bypassing everything in the receiver: all the speaker levels and distances, the crossovers, everything. I figured that in using the multi channel inputs, I'm using only the settings on the player. So imagine my surprise when I go back to my receiver, increase the gain on the sub . . . and see the subwoofer blinking on when using the multi channel inputs. (I'm not proud of being this stupid. Really I'm not.)

YPAO and my own little adjustments had put the settings at: FL+R +7.0 dB; C +6.0 dB; SL+R +8.5 dB, sub -5.0 dB. It seemed to work fine with movies, DTS music and 2-channel music -- everything sounded pretty good. But it seems that when listening to SACD and DVD-A, I now have to up the sub a bit (I'll have to check later to figure out exactly how much).

So I apologize for being such a bo-bo head. And thanks for all the help!

cheers,
supervij

 

[j_garcia]

I have to do the same thing, though on my receiver the speaker levels are set independently for the multichannel input from the rest of the inputs. This is what some were referring to earlier, that you should try adjusting the sub level at the receiver if the player does not have an adjustment for the sub's level.

 

[shokhead]

Wow, lots of responses -- thanks, everyone!

Well, I can tell you that the configuration of my player (all my gear is listed in my sig, by the way) has all my speakers as "small" and my subwoofer as "on". Brian and shokhead, I can set the speaker distances, but I can't adjust anything for the sub -- it's either "on" or "off". Even when I set all my speaker distances as one foot away, the sub still doesn't receive any signal.

The cables going from the player to the receiver -- I swapped the one for the sub and the one for the centre, and the centre played just fine, so as far as I can see, no, it's not a bad cable.

Okay. Now here's the part I hate -- admitting my own ignorance. Of course, compared to most of you guys on AH, I have nothing but ignorance, so it's okay. See, I had always thought that when using the multi channel inputs, I'm bypassing everything in the receiver: all the speaker levels and distances, the crossovers, everything. I figured that in using the multi channel inputs, I'm using only the settings on the player. So imagine my surprise when I go back to my receiver, increase the gain on the sub . . . and see the subwoofer blinking on when using the multi channel inputs. (I'm not proud of being this stupid. Really I'm not.)

YPAO and my own little adjustments had put the settings at: FL+R +7.0 dB; C +6.0 dB; SL+R +8.5 dB, sub -5.0 dB. It seemed to work fine with movies, DTS music and 2-channel music -- everything sounded pretty good. But it seems that when listening to SACD and DVD-A, I now have to up the sub a bit (I'll have to check later to figure out exactly how much).

So I apologize for being such a bo-bo head. And thanks for all the help!

cheers,
supervij

So now hows it sounding?

 

[supervij]

I haven't had a chance to properly set the level of the sub, I just upped it from -5 dB to 0 dB for now. I tried two DVD-A tracks, from different albums, and both sounded much better -- very rich and warm, but not overly bass-y. I haven't had a chance to listen to any movie scenes, DTS music, or 2-channel music, so I don't know if I've now wreaked havoc with those sources. But I'm sure I'll find a happy middle ground soon. Thanks!

cheers,
supervij

Edit: Man, I really need to pick up an Avia or DVE disc sometime. My SPL meter always reads so much bass when I can't feel/hear much at all. So I "calibrate" the bass by playing "Don't Give Up" on DTS from Peter Gabriel's DVD "Play". I always get tons of bass with that song. When I adjust the bass level so that it isn't boomy (-5 dB), movies seem to lack that oomphy bass that I like. When I adjust the bass level using a movie scene (I always use the chapter 3 of "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow" -- the giant robots attacking) till it's where I want it (0 dB), "Don't Give Up" is too too TOO bass-y. So I guess I'm gonna leave the bass level at 0 dB, and just adjust down when playing "Play". At least, until I finally get my hands on an Avia or DVE disc.

 

[Methost]

I was hoping that the new bass setting would only be in effect when you choose the analog input on the receiver. I have not set up my receiver yet, but I guess I assumed that each input could have it's own sound settings. That would make sense anyway because each input device may output different signals.

 

[supervij]

Hopefully, that will be the case with your receiver. Sadly, 'twas not so with mine. My receiver is able to remember the last audio setting (2-ch stereo, PLIIx Movie, etc.) for each input (DVD, DTV, VCR, etc.), but that's it. Oh well, that's what I get for buying a low-end receiver . . .

cheers,
supervij