G

gebco

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>I was listening to a fairly bassy part of some Pink Floyd (CD)at about 85% volume when I heard one distinct pop sound (not loud) come from one speaker, almost like a turntable needle skipping. I immediately turned down the sound. (Bass setting was kept at neutral, where it always stays.) I was able to reproduce the sound once more at the same spot by playing the same part about 3 times.
Obviously I rarely listen to music at that volume, but I do on occasion. To my ears there was absolutely no distortion up to that point (or after): the sound was clean. My system consists partially of:
Integra DTR-5.4 (120 W continuous power at 6 ohms, 150 W maximum at 6 ohms)
Wharfedale Diamond 8.3 fronts (6 ohms, 86dB, 100W)
Budget Panasonic 5 disc DVD/CD player

Is this what is referred to as the woofer bottoming out? Is this related to my receiver reaching its limit or my speaker or both? Is a rare occurence of this happening going to cause permanent damage? If I still want to listen at this level and not cause damage, what are my options? I had read to set the speaker to small and let the subwoofer take over, but I prefer the &quot;fuller&quot; sound coming from the towers. Any advice is appreciated.</font>
 
RLA

RLA

Audioholic Chief
<font color='#000000'>Hi
When a driver reaches its maximum excursion or maximum peak X-Max &nbsp;it will hit the stops in the woofer spider assembly &nbsp;This most often sounds like a hard knuckle rap on a hardwood door or a clack sound
doing this repeatedly &nbsp;can cause permanent damage to your speaker &nbsp; The Diamond 8.3 is not a high SPL
speaker design Try to limit the low frequency &nbsp;to the speakers by setting your crossover higher in the receiver &nbsp;If you like to rock I suggest a speaker that can produce high SPL levels without distortion
Klipsch is a good brand for this &nbsp;I would also note that listening at these levels can &nbsp;cause permanent damage to your hearing if you hear ringing in your ears after listening damage has occurred &nbsp;
Ray</font>
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
<font color='#000000'>Your volume is WAY too high. Just a notch past half-way is probably max output. Also, sounds like you ARE trying to make the speaker produce more bass than it can handle at such a high volume level. You are DEFINITELY into distortion levels. &nbsp;
</font>
 
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G

gebco

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>Hello,

Thank you for the info. As I said, I RARELY listen to music at that level and for very short periods of time. However the sound was clean even at that listening level (although, as you can probably tell by the equipment I own, I am not an audiophile, so perhaps there WAS distortion without me even knowing it.) However, if I play at 50% volume (the readout on the receiver reads &quot;Volume 50&quot;; I assume it means 50%) the sound is audible but nowhere near loud. My old Technics produced more sound at half-volume, and that was the maximum it could put out before clipping. The Integra is putting out less sound at half-volume than the old Technics. Why? That being said, it seems that I can get cleaner and louder sound from the Integra as opposed to the Technics, but I definitely have to put the volume considerable higher than half, I would say probably at least 65 to 70%. Usually the loudest we go is 75% and quite rarely 80%. The 85% indicated in the previous post was the first time.
Shouldn't I be able to use higher volume with the Integra without distortion?</font>
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
<font color='#000000'>WAY WAY TOO LOUD! The reason you think the Technics was louder is because you are associating distortion with loudness. The Integra, I would imagine, is alot cleaner.

Were you using the same speakers on the Technics?</font>
 
G

gebco

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>Yep, same speakers. Really, on my Integra, 50% is not loud at all. It is a nice listening level, but not loud. I'm not sure what this indicates. . .</font>
 
G

gebco

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>Correction to one of my previous posts: On the old Technics I could go to about 40% volume maximum, after which point the sound became distorted. That 40% still put out louder sound than even the 50% on the Integra.</font>
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
<font color='#000000'>Are there only two speakers hooked to the receiver? If so, be sure it is set to 2-channel or direct stereo operation.</font>
 
zipper

zipper

Full Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Gebco

&nbsp;If the older receiver is a straight 2-chan stereo model it may play louder than a newer 5-chan unit. My ex &amp; I had a pr of klipsch fortes that were driven by an older Pioneer receiver.Not sure what model it was(it was 1 of those that claimed surround sound but had no digital inputs at all) &amp; don't know what the power rating was.But it drove the klipschs' beautifully &amp; could make you leave the room.Then I hooked up a Yamaha 5x100(rx-v620) to them &amp; the bass disappeared as did the quality of sound. The old beast outperformed the rookie w/o breaking a sweat.
&nbsp;Just found out the Pioneer model was a vsx-5000.</font>
 
G

gebco

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>The Technics was a 5.1, the Integra is 6.1. When playing music it is definitely in stereo mode, plus the powered sub.</font>
 
RLA

RLA

Audioholic Chief
<font color='#000000'>Hi
How far the Gain control knob is turned &nbsp;
between receivers is not a good indication
of how loud or how much of the Amp's power you are using
Technics and Panasonic receivers ramp up there out put voltages much quicker than most receivers  (the gain control is or volume is turned less)
A THX certified receiver for example takes many turns  to hit reference level or 0db on the indicator The best way to check your listening levels is with a SPL meter set at the listening position &nbsp;This should be used to calibrate your system to reference levels</font>
 
G

gebco

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>The reference level on my Integra is 82 (0 dB). And it's true, it takes several turns of the volume to get there. In reading the owner's manual a bit more, I discovered that I can change the volume display from absolute (0 to 100) to relative (-81 to +18). As a result, absolute 50 = relative -31 dB.
So, what is considered loud, what is considered really loud, and what is considered ear bleeding loud? Plus, will the same relative volume (eg. -12 dB) give the same loudness on all speakers? Given that mine are inefficient (6 ohms, 86dB), would they produce less sound at that level than more efficient ones? Is there an inherent advantage to speakers with specs like mine?</font>
 
RLA

RLA

Audioholic Chief
<font color='#000000'>Measured dB


Rocket launching 180   Danger level
Threshold of pain
Gunshot
Jet engine taking off
140   Danger level
Military jet
Air raid siren
Shotgun
Hydraulic press (3 m away)
130
512 times as loud
Limited ability to hear amplified speech.
Noise may cause pain.

Can damage hearing after  3.75 minutes exposure per day

Car horn
Propeller aircraft
Air-raid siren 120 256 times as loud Can damage hearing after  7.5 minutes exposure per day
Sand-blasting
Squealing pigs
Inboard motorboat
Typical night club
Unsilenced motorcycle (7m away)
110
Over 128 times as loud!!
 Maximum vocal effort.

Can damage hearing after  30 minutes exposure per day

Amplified Rock Music 110-130  Over 128 to 512 times as loud!! Can damage hearing after  
3.75 – 30 minutes
exposure per day
Helicopter
Motorised/power mower 105   Can damage hearing after 1 hour
exposure per day
Jet takeoff @ 500m
Train horn @ 30m
Diesel truck
Pneumatic drill/jackhammer
100
64 times as loud
Can damage hearing after 2 hours exposure per day

Heavy truck @ 15m
Busy city street
passing motorcycle
Lawn mower
Loud shout
Sreaming child
90
32 times as loud
Very annoying.

Can damage hearing after
8 hours exposure per day

Average factory
Electric shaver 85    
Busy traffic intersection
Motorway construction site
Outboard motor
Alarm clock (with bell)
Freight train (15m away)
80
16 times as loud
Annoying .

Motorway traffic @ 15m
Roadside traffic
Train horn @ 500m
Vacuum cleaner
Mixer
electric sewing machine
Noisy restaurant
Conversation in a loud voice
70
8 times as loud
Telephone use difficult.

Washing machine/dishwasher 65    
Light car traffic @ 15m
City or commercial areas
Noisy office
Normal conversation
Clothes dryer
Background music
60
4 times as loud
Intrusive.

Quiet office
50
2 times as loud
Speech interference.

Refrigerator 45    
Quiet residential area
Kitchen/bathroom
Public library
40
Arbitrary Base
Reference Level
Quiet .

Leaves rustling
Very soft music
Recording studio
Living/dining/bedroom
30
1/2 as loud
Very quiet.

Threshold of sound perception
10
1/8 as loud
Just audible.

Threshold of hearing
0
N/A
Not audible.</font>
 
Mudcat

Mudcat

Senior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>RLA,

You forgot to include a nagging spouse. &nbsp;While only 88 - 90 dBA, it can damage hearing in about 15-30 seconds.
</font>
 
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RLA

RLA

Audioholic Chief
<font color='#000000'>

LOL</font>
 
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G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Spl meter to the rescue!

&quot;You forgot to include a nagging spouse&quot;

That alone makes the rocket launch seem like childsplay!!!

&quot;would they produce less sound at that level than more efficient ones? Is there an inherent advantage to speakers with specs like mine?&quot;

Yes, and
. &nbsp;The advantages and disadvantages of any given loudspeaker are dependent on your point of view and perspective. &nbsp;All loudspeakers have their adv's and dis-adv's...its really a game of compromise and wallet girth!!!



best,</font>
 
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G

gebco

Audiophyte
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
Guest : <font color='#000000'>&quot;would they produce less sound at that level than more efficient ones? Is there an inherent advantage to speakers with specs like mine?&quot;

Yes, and
.  The advantages and disadvantages of any given loudspeaker are dependent on your point of view and perspective.  All loudspeakers have their adv's and dis-adv's...its really a game of compromise and wallet girth!!!</font>
<font color='#000000'>Oops! Given that my speakers are INefficient, I meant to write in my previous post: &quot;is there an inherent DISadvantage to speakers with specs like mine. . .&quot;

That being said, I am happy with the Diamonds. I know they are nowhere near the audiophile quality many on this forum own, but I wanted a clean sounding speaker that could do double duty for music and for home theater at a price that wouldn't break the bank. Any other speaker I tried at the similar price point just sounded muddy in comparison, even though they seemed to give a &quot;louder&quot; sound.

I will certainly keep watching this forum for great tips and info. Although I'm happy with my Integra / Wharfedale combination, I know that one day I'll want BETTER! I'm somewhat sure that I've caught the audiophile wannabe bug!</font>
 
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