Newbie needs help with speaker options

S

Sounds Simple

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>First, I want to say I'm really happy I've found this site. The reviews and the forums are a caliber above any others sites I've visited.

I'm converting a small(approx 10x10x8) unused bedroom to a media room. Unfortunately, the wall lengths are further compromised by doors and an &quot;angled corner&quot; that makes the 2 longest walls measure only 8&quot;. The room will be used for both home theater and music (most everything except country and little classical).

I'm trying to decide if I should go with minis or monitors.  I've listened to a number of sat-sub systems but they all seem to come across as thin. But I'm concerned that the small dimensions of the room will make placement of monitors very difficult, especially if they are ported in the rear.

I'm also pondering the trade-offs between wall-mounting and stands. Since, we just had our downtown destroyed by an earthquake this week, I'm thinking that wall mounting may be a better choice than using stands but I'm again concerned for how this will effect the sound.

Any general guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks-
Bob</font>
 
S

Sounds Simple

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Okay, I'm going to try this again but fleshed out a bit better.

As I said above, I am building a home theater in a small room. The leading contender for speakers right now is a Monitor Audio Bronze setup with the B2 bookshelfs as mains, the Bronze Center and Bronze FX rears, most likely in bipolar mode. I have family members who LOVE bass so I am thinking SVS 25-31PCi. This will be driven with either a HK 630 or the Denon 3803.

I know that this system is overkill for the room but it will likely end up used elsewhere in a couple years. Any thoughts or experience on this potential setup would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob.</font>
 
R

RX-V2400

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Having a small room I would first pad the walls to stop sound reflections. Styrafoam or heavy drapes, carpet on walls, cork etc. Then use high power quality full range floorstanding speakers for the front and keep the bookshelves for souround.

I wish I had a dedicated audio room and would do this too.</font>
 
S

Sounds Simple

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Thanks Mark.

I am considering bringing in a custom installer to address such issues but would welcome any input of questions to ask or things to watch out for.</font>
 
goodman

goodman

Full Audioholic
<font color='#CCCCCC'>You may want to reconsider using this room at all, because with such a small room of roughly equal dimensions, you will be hearing the room (i.e. reflections) more than you'll be hearing the speakers. &nbsp;RX-V2400 is right-on about adding dampening and diffusion devices. &nbsp;You'll need a lot of it. &nbsp;You may be better off just making the small room a media storage room for your source materials, and use one of your larger rooms for your sound and video system.</font>
 
S

Sounds Simple

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Thanks Goodman.

I realize that this room is far from ideal. Unfortunately, my options are somewhat limited in this house. The idea is to create as good a setup as possible in this small space which is away from the hustle-and-bustle of the main part of the house (which can become quite noisy).

I recognize that acoustic treatment of the walls will be necessary. At least the room is carpeted.</font>
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
<font color='#000000'>Carpet on the walls?? Yow!! I'm havin' a '70's acid flashback!


Your media storage will make good diffusers. For sound absorption consider wall hangings, paintings on canvas (or velvet Elvises!) and such. A machine-made &quot;oriental&quot; rug would make an attractive wall hanging and soak up ricocheting sound, for instance. But don't make the room too dead!

Biggest challenge will be boomy bass because the room nodes (where standing waves occur) will be packed tightly together and the resonant frequency of your room will be in the upper bass where it's most annoying. Very little in the way of treatment can fix that. You'll need to futz with speaker placement a lot.

If you *do* go with the carpet on the walls, it's gotta be shag, andd at least one lava lamp is mandatory!
</font>
 
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S

Sounds Simple

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Thanks Rip.

I meant carpet on the floor but shag on the walls is an interesting concept (&quot;shagadelic, baby!&quot;) and a lava lamp sounds cool too.  


I figured that the room is going to require a fair amount of treatment and I foretunately have the odd &quot;corner&quot; that will help in breaking up standing waves to some degree.</font>
 
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R

RX-V2400

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>And of course with a room that small don't light more than one jos-stick at a time!</font>
 
S

Sounds Simple

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Well, I thought I was pretty content with the sound of the Monitor Audio Bronze speakers but I was in Santa Barbara yesterday and listened to a couple of more systems.

The first was NHT SB3 fronts with a SC1 center and Mirage Omnisats as the rears. These were driven by a NAD T73 and sounded great. The shop had done this installation in another tight space and it worked out well they claimed. As an aside, after listening to this mundane setup, we sat around and listened to some Coltrane on Bel Canto electronics on some HUGE towers that sounded incredible.

I decided to listen to the DefTechs again. I took a brief listen to the StudioMonitor 350s which he paired with the ProCenter C2, BR1.2x rears and a lowly ProSub100. The 350s sounded pretty nice although I think if I go this route I will step up to the ProCenter2002 and a bigger sub.

I've also added NAD into the mix for a receiver. I've heard it driving the above NHT system above, as well as some PSBs and it does an incredible job of articulating music.

I still plan to give a listen to the Paradigm MiniMons at my PITA local dealer. I'm pretty sure he'll suggest a Denon receiver since everything thing else he has is $$$$$$$$.

Anyone with experience/opinions of any of the above speaker systems- especially in a small room?

Thanks for any input.

Bob</font>
 
austinbirdman

austinbirdman

Audioholic Intern
<font color='#000000'>Here's my two cents for your project, which I envy. The listening tests sound like fun - just beware they are not going to tell you much, if anything, of relevance to your room. In fact, they will probably be very deceptive. Many a speaker will sound terrific in the listening rooms but won't work in your room. For instance, I own and love a pair of Axiom M60tis, a 37&quot; floorstander with good musical bass. But I would not try to use it in a 10'x10' room (and I note you're wisely looking at bookshelves as sats) because they need at least 7'-8' of separation and 1' from the wall to acheive their best soundstage and imaging -- which are one of their strongest selling points. And then ideally you need to sit 8'-10' back from them, which is not practical in a 10'x10' room.

If I were outfitting your room, I'd definitely audition everything at home under the same acoustic conditions -- so maybe after some initial basics (drapes, bookshelves) were in place. The Monitor Bronze's sound great, as do the Monitor Silvers if you can locate a dealer who will let you try them at home. I also recommend the Axiom bookshelves -- any of them -- and that you consider the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170. You'd have to do an Internet-shipping audition, which could incur return costs, but since you're starting from scratch, you have the chance to audition either or both the Axioms or Ascends side by side with the Monitors on an A/B test then go with your favorite.

One of the selling points of the Monitors and the Axioms (especially the Monitor Silvers, IMHO) is that the upgrade paths are clear and appealing. This gives you lots of flexibility. (These speakers are said to share sonic qualities as well -- a main difference is the Monitors look better and cost more. Axioms looks nice, however -- I'm very happy with the look of mine.) For example, if you go with Axiom M2tis ($255) as mains and surrounds, then some day want to upgrade to the much acclaimed Axiom QS8s ($470 and similar in ways to the Monitor FX speakers) as surrounds, then you'll have a nice, sonically matched pair of Axiom M2s to use in a 7.1 config or in another room. Likewise if you go with M22tis ($400) as mains now, you'll probably be able to use them indefinitely, even in a larger room some day ... And for what it's worth, were I auditioning bookshelves for this room, I'd try the Axiom M3tis vs. Ascends vs. Monitor Silver or comparable Bronze bookshelves, to see what kind of bass fullness I could get on music. If you only/mainly want HT, I'd try the Axiom M2tis or M22tis vs similarly priced Ascend &amp; Monitor. Point is, if you go with a line that matches, like Monitor or Axiom (while using your SVS sub), you'll have lots of options moving ahead. You could add a pair of their floorstanders if you move into a larger room, and still find practical, timbre-matching uses for the extra bookshelves you had accumulated. The Ascend Acoustics line is more limited, since they only offer two bookshelf speakers. But they are well-priced and excellent by all reports.

By the way, I think you can get great sound out of this small room -- just use appropriately small speakers and enjoy all the acoustic tweaks. Sounds like a very cool way to spend some time.

Birdman</font>
 
S

Sounds Simple

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Thanks for your response, Birdman.

I realize that an in-home audition of speakers would be the best way to make a purchase decision and had considered the Axiom and Ascend speakers (the Ascends, unfortunately, just don't appeal to me aesthetically).

I could most likely arrange an in-home demo of the Monitor Silvers but they cost more than I am willing to spend at this time. In one of those strange twists, the local Monitor reseller only stocks the Silver and Gold series but could order the Bronzes for me so I doubt I'll be able to arrange anin-home demo of the Bronzes. BTW, the room will be used for both HT and audio.

I do like the upgrade potential afforded by the timbral matching in the Monitor Audio and Axiom lines and it appears this is also a strong suit in the DefTech line. One family member (the bass nut) prefers the DefTech which I find a bit more forward than the Monitor Audios. I'm guesing that the Axioms are a somewhat laid-back speaker like the PSBs - can you confirm this?

Bob</font>
 
austinbirdman

austinbirdman

Audioholic Intern
<font color='#000000'>The Axioms have a laid-back branch of the family, but their premier speakers are, with one exception, known for accuracy and revealing clarity. I have not tested the M3tis, but the consensus among users and Axiom folks is that the M3tis are the most laid back of the Axioms, because of the way they roll off the bass. And it's considered one of their best. Here's the basic family tree:

More laid-back: M3tis (bookshelves), M40tis &amp; M50tis (floorstanders).

More accuracy- and clarity-oriented: M2tis, M22tis (bookshelves - the M2 is basically half an M22), M60tis, M80tis (floorstanders).

I've heard reviewers compare the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 and the Axiom M3ti -- favorable to both, with personal preferences going either way. (The M3ti is about $70 cheaper.)

The M2ti is compared to many clarity-oriented smaller bookshelves -- it's really accurate, as you can see at this index of speaker measurements from soundstage.com. (That site is a great starting point for considering speakers, by the way -- except they don't cover too many speakers, AND YOU HAVE TO LISTEN, the numbers only tell you what they tell you.)

The M22ti is just loved by many music-lovers, especially at its price point. Though some prefer the laid-back qualities of the Ascend or M3ti. I believe in general the Monitor Audios compare more closely with the M2/M22/M60/M80 branch of the family -- the Silvers do, I know this. Can't speak for the Bronzes, or for their smaller bookshelves.

Please post results if you do any listening tests.

Birdman

PS - if you do a search on the Axiom forum for Paradigms, you'll see where some people compare some of their specific models to Axioms -- or better yet, just put up a post and ask people for comparisons. You'll get a lot of responses from people with much listening experience.</font>
 
S

Sounds Simple

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Thanks again Birdman....especially for the link.

I'll definitely consider the Axioms. I'm going to check out the forums at their site.

Bob</font>
 
S

Sounds Simple

Junior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>I went to the local Paradigm dealer here yesterday and they suggested MiniMons up front with a CC-270 (I think) and either Atoms or with Titans or Focus as the rears. They also suggested the PDR-10 as the sub. Unfortunately, they were sold out of the MiniMons so I was unable to audition them. I know the MiniMons are more speaker than I need to fill the space but I also am looking for equipment which I will enjoy when it is moved into a new room, hopefully in the next two years. The MiniMons will have to really impress me to knock off the Monitor Bronze setup. I am also going to see if I can find someone locally who has the Axiom M2s/M22s to both listen and see build quality.

I'm concerned about having direct radiating-speakers as the rears in this room since the seating is going to have to be near the rear wall (I've linked a sketch of the room below). I'm anticipating using the wall at the top of the pic for my front speakers.

Any thoughts on the suggested Paradigm setup or suggestions for speaker placement in this room?


Room sketch</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>It seems that you might wat to think about MB Quart. My top pics were B&amp;W &amp; Monitor Audio. The problem was price, and a dealer that was too high class for me, or so he thought. I found the Quarts at Yawa online. They come with a 30 day in home test, 5 years waranty, and this place gave me the service that I could not get from any dealer around here. I have them on a Yamaha rx-v1400, and never had the volume above 0. I stay in the negative. I trusted MB Quart because I used them in my younger years in car audio and there was no speaker that could come close in clarity and duribilty. Anyway, you can save alot of money &amp; get the sound you want. My speakers are two QLS-830's main, one QLS-330 center, two QLS-830's for surround and a NHT SW-12 powered sub. All can be had for around $3000.</font>
 
S

shaishav

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>i have recently acquired a pair of Cadence arita bookshelf speakers with stands, for a room just little bigger than yours. maybe you may want to check them out. &nbsp;www.cadenceaudio.com is where you could get more information.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>The Axiom M3tis are a great idea, for the price, to be used all the way around, Also consider the Paradigm studio 20s. The best bookshelf speaker I have ever heard anywhere near the price or even several times tha price. They are strong down to 50hz.</font>
 
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