New speakers for a/v room

[allengarman]

<font color='#000000'>I am moving my a/v system into a different room in my home and planning to upgrade my front or rear speakers.

The new room is 11.5x15 with wood floors and an 8-foot ceiling.  The TV will be oriented on the long wall.  

My current system includes:
55&quot; Mitsubishi Widescreen
Onkyo Receiver 5.1 TXDS474 (55w)
Toshiba Progressive Scan DVD
JBL Center (TLX Center2)
4&quot; JBL Fronts (Wall Mounted) G100 bkshlf w/ titanium tweeter
10&quot; Eosone Sub (100w 80-120hz)
Small rears (Wall Mounted) don't laugh they are Optimus

I would like to move my current front speakers to the rear  and purchase new larger bookshelf speakers or floor standing speakers.  Conversely, I may purchase new JBL rears and keep my current fronts, although this is unlikely since the 4&quot; speakers seem to be lacking some full range.

My goal is to stick with JBL since I already have 3 speakers that I would like to keep.  I wish to improve the realism of my movie experience without overpowering the room.  I feel that my current 4&quot; JBLs lack something in the mid-range and bass frequencies.

The room has a 5x8 oriental rug, large soft couch, and leather recliner that will dampen some of the reflective sound.

I have been looking at JBL's new Northridge E-series speakers.  Does anyone have any thoughts on simply purchasing the small E10's to replace my current rear speakers or moving up to larger bookshelf or floorstanding speakers.

Any opionins relating to hard rooms, JBL speakers, and speaker size are greatly appreciated.  I don't want to regret my purchase a month later.

Allen</font>

 

[av_phile]

<font color='#000000'>Personally i prefer floorstanders for my speakers, whether front or back. That's also in preparation for those SACDs and DVD-As that are touted to have low bass even for surrounds and requires full rangers all around.

I am sure there are excellent JBL floorstanders in its line-up. I know what's at the back of your mind when you want to have the same brand all around. &nbsp;That's for timbre matching. &nbsp;In general, it is safe to have just one brand for all your speakers. &nbsp;But I think that only applies when you talk of speakers in the SAME SERIES or MODEL series. &nbsp;It's possible the timbre of another speaker in another series of the same brand could be off. &nbsp;To be sure, you may want to bring your small speakers with you when auditioning for a floorstander, whether JBL or another brand.

Hard rooms can easily be tamed with the right treaments. &nbsp;Try clapping you hands at your listening position, if you hear echoes, then it would be a good idea to further deaden the room. &nbsp;In my small room, i just use area rugs and discarded stuffed toys placed in corners as bass trraps. &nbsp;My windows use blinds as diffusers and I hang a large persian rug across my speakers, use tall plants and bookshelves behind the speakers and generally have shelves and paintings all around to further diffract the sound. &nbsp;A comfortable room is still &nbsp;reverberant. But the echoes from the front speakers should decay early on prior to reaching your ears at the listening position. &nbsp;One fast rule to consider is that there should be no two opossite and parallel suirfaces that are reflective. &nbsp;So one either treats the ceiling or the floor, not necessarily both. &nbsp; Or just one facing wall. &nbsp;(A totally dead rom is not very comfy as you could almost hear your blood gushing though your head.)

For one not to regret his buying decision will require a lot of research. &nbsp;Field research. &nbsp;That means listening a lot in many AV shops. &nbsp; &nbsp;If you could arrange a home demo of the products you have shorlisted, better. &nbsp;

Just my 2 cents</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Thank you for the response. &nbsp;I am now leaning toward floorstanding speakers as they will provide the most realism to my movie experience. &nbsp;Will my Onkyo 60w 5.1 receiver have sufficient power to drive these speakers to their full potential during movies?

I am considering JBL's E80 or E90 floorstanding speakers. &nbsp;The stats:

E90
3-way magnetically shielded speaker with dual 8&quot; PolyPlas woofers
3/4 titanium-laminate dome tweeter
225-watt power maximum handling
Sensitivity: 91dB
Impedance: 8 ohms
Frequency Response 36 Hz - 20kHz (- 3dB)
Enclosure color: cherry
Product Height 40-1/4&quot;
Product Width 9-7/8&quot;
Product Weight 48-1/2 lbs.
Product Length 15&quot;
Crossover Type Straight-line signal path SSP
Connectors Gold-plated, 5-way binding posts, biwirable
Midrange 4&quot; PolyPlas cone, shielded
Tweeter 3/4&quot; titanium-laminate dome, shielded, in Elliptical Oblate Spheroidal (EOS) waveguide

E80
Sensitivity: 91dB
Impedance: 8.0 ohms
Frequency response: 38Hz - 20kHz
Product Height 36-1/2&quot;
Product Width 8-3/8&quot;
Product Weight 42-1/8 lbs.
Product Length 13-3/4&quot;
Connectors Gold-plated 5-way binding posts
Woofer Dual 6&quot; PolyPlas cones, shielded</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Allen,

Both JBLs' spec look fantastic, highly efficient (good for your Onkyo) and extended frequency response. &nbsp; But speakers are very hard, almost impossible, to be judged by specs alone. &nbsp; Even super flat frequency response may not guarantee good sound. &nbsp; You might want to audition several brands, preferrably at home with your system, before spending you money. &nbsp;

A few other brands you may want to consider is PSB, Paradgm, Axiom which are highly regarded within audio circles and also reasonably priced (at least in audio terms .
The rule of thumb is: SPEND MOST OF YOUR BUDGET ON SPEAKERS, as they are the most critical link.

Good luck.

Abe</font>

 

[av_phile]

<font color='#000000'>The E90 seems better. &nbsp;I would imagine that model is more expensive of the two. &nbsp;If you can afford it,go for it. &nbsp;I would further suggest that you audition it at home with your other JBl speakers to make sure they share the same timbre which, if they belong in the same model series, should. &nbsp;

It appears to me that your brand choice is being dictated by the fact you already have JBLs for center and fronts that you will relegate to the back surrounds. &nbsp;Nothing wrong with that. Like what Abe said, it would be a good idea to audition other brands. &nbsp;Either that will convince you your first choice is the best, or there are better ones. &nbsp;

With regards your receiver, 60 watts per channel may not deliver the bang needed for a really hair-raising movie-watching experience. &nbsp;Either the E90 or E80 has a good enough sensitivity to extract the most from that. &nbsp;A more senstiive Klipsch speaker could make them sound louder though. &nbsp;We have about the same room size, my 100 watt onkyo is room filling enough, but I use only 90db sensitive speakers, so maybe the SPLs may be about the same. I also noticed the max power handling of the E90is 225 watts. &nbsp;I wonder what the minimum is. &nbsp;Just make sure your present receiver will not appear underpowerd to the amp. &nbsp; Perhaps if your budget permits later on you may want to upgrade to a more powerful amp or receiver. &nbsp;Just my thoughts.</font>

 

[allengarman]

<font color='#000000'>Thank you for the responses. &nbsp;I will stop by Tweeter/BestBuy/Circuit City to check for some of the brands that have been mentioned.

I emailed JBL and they indicated that my current TLX series center and my G100s are not perfectly matched to the new E90s. &nbsp;However, they should be a close match.

It would definitely be fun and informative to audition speakers at home, but it seems troublesome to purchase and then return several pairs of speakers. &nbsp;Is there any other way?

Unfortunately, the local BestBuy does not have a dedicated listening room for the JBL E90s. &nbsp;I may stop by on a weeknight and request that the speakers be moved to one of the listening rooms. &nbsp;BestBuy is currently charging the full list price of $399 each for the E90s, so I will likely purchase from soundpros.com.

Last night I purchased a Lutron remote controlled dimmer for my new A/V room to control a set of 5-halogen track lights from Ikea.

Today, I ordered a new Sony RM-AV3000 universal remote to control the dimmer and my audio/video components. &nbsp;The remote is programmable, so that you can write macros to perform multiple functions with the touch of a button. &nbsp;It will be really satiflying to punch one button and have the receiver turn on, the dvd player begin paying, the TV turn on and switch to the appropriate source (I hope it can perform this annoying function), and dim the lights. &nbsp;An early Christmas present for me

. &nbsp;

I painted my a/v room a medium tan color over the weekend and will submit a photo to this website in a couple of weeks when I have finished moving furniture in and setting up the a/v equipment. &nbsp;(As a side note, a Wagner Power Painter may sound cool, but I think an old-technology roller and paint brushes is easier.)

Allen</font>

 

[allengarman]

<font color='#000000'>I auditioned Sapphire and Boston Acoustics last night at Tweeter.  

It is funny how my price range keeps getting higher as I shop.  My original plan was to stick with JBL and merely replace my front speakers with new JBL towers, keeping my JBL center and rears.  Now I am considering replacing all five speakers since tonal matching for movies is most important for me.

I was originally considering the JBL E90s, but the $800 pair price tag and the inability to adequately audition them at Best Buy has been discouraging.  I found them at an e-tailer for approximately $600 including shipping.

Last night I auditioned the new Sapphire ST2 (www.sapphireaudio.com) against a pair of old VR950 model Boston Acoustics floorstanders.  The Sapphire and Boston’s were on sale for $800 pair and $350 pair, respectively.

I used a Billy Bragg CD that contains acoustic guitar and rich vocals.  Both speakers, powered by an 80w Sony receiver at 17dbls were very bright due to their high sensitivities.  I was amazed at how much louder these speakers sounded at that output compared to my current bookshelf speakers powered by my home 60w Onkyo receiver.  I am not sure what impact the difference in power output between the receivers actually makes on the perceived loudness.

The Bostons seemed a bit warmer in tones than the Sapphires, but that may have been partly due to the Sapphires greater sensitivity.  Both speakers were incredible to me, a vast improvement over my current small JBLs (it was difficult to contain my excitement).  Obviously, these speakers are larger than my current bookshelf model, with greater frequency response and more drivers.  I wish I could hear the JBL E90 towers next to the Sapphires and Bostons.  The Sapphires side firing 10” woofer seems really hi-tech and produced improved base over the Bostons.  The Bostons seemed a bit overwhelmed and confused when I demoed an action DVD.  Conversely, the Sapphires were so bright and in-your-face that they bordered on harsh (I think I just needed to turn them down a bit, as the vocalist sounded like he was singing in my ear) I may return on Wednesday with a different CD and DVD.  Perhaps an old Yaz (Allison Moyet) CD and The Fifth Element DVD.

I also recently tested a pair of Polk Rti70s at Circuit City.  Last year’s model on closeout at $600 pair.  Both the Bostons and Sapphires were far superior to me.

Boston Acoustics
I liked the Boston’s warmth and low price ($450 cheaper than the Sapphire).  Despite the Boston’s very good low frequency response, the Sapphire’s were clearly superior in that regard.  The inability to bi-wire and the “sock” cover with loose top were a bit disappointing.  The sock cover over the whole speaker is actually very ugly to me.

Appropriate rear speakers of both the Boston and Sapphire line were $300 pair.  The Boston center channel was $50 more expensive at $400, but seemed superior in construction.  The Boston center utilized four distinct drivers, two-base, a tweeter, and a mid driver.  

Sapphire ST2
The Sapphire seems to be technically a superior speaker, with a side firing 10” base speaker and the ability to be bi-wired.  The cabinet is also more attractive, with a traditional speaker grill and it is significantly taller at 44”, which is advantageous since my center speaker is at a height of 52” mounted on top of a projection TV.  The center speaker is rather diminutive in size relative to the Boston Acoustic’s center.  The Sapphire has two mids and a tweeter.  Since the center is supposed to be the most important speaker in a home theatre setup, this is an important factor in my ultimate decision.

F       R      C
Sapphire 800+300+350=$1,450
Boston 350+300+400=$1,050

Boston Acoustics (VR950)
VR-950 Floorstanding Speakers Full Product Specifications
Recommended Amplifier Power 15-150 watts
Nominal Impedance 8 ohms
Frequency Response +/-(3dB) 46-20,000Hz
Bass Unit Dual 5-1/4&quot; (135mm) copolymer
Tweeter 1&quot; (25mm) anodized aluminum dome
Crossover Frequency 3100Hz
Sensitivity (1 watt (2.83v) at 1m) 90dB
Finish Charcoal gray cloth with gloss black top
Weight 37 lbs.
Dimensions (HxWxD) 38-1/4 x 9 3/4 x 12&quot;


Sapphire
Frequency Range 30 Hz- 20Khz +/- 3 db
Sensitivity 93 db
Impedance 8 ohms
Recommended power 15-150 watts continuous
Acoustic Design Rear Vented Bass Reflex
Tweeter 1&quot; shielded polycell dome
Midrange 2 x 5.25&quot;
Material Aluminum Cone
Woofer 10&quot; side firing
Material Coated Paper Cone
Crossover 12 db @ 150 Hz woofer
18db @ 3000 Hz tweeter
Size 44&quot;H x 6.5&quot;W x 15.2&quot;D
Weight 54.1 lbs.
Finish Black Ash vinyl
Features Black glass top inlay
Bi-wire capable, leveling spikes
Construction
Cabinet Sleeve 18 mm MDF
Baffle front 30 mm MDF
Front Grille Black Cloth
Side Grille Black Cloth</font>

 

[allengarman]

<font color='#000000'>I bought the Sapphire ST2 fronts, Sapphire center and surrounds last night. &nbsp;sapphireaudio.com

The cost of the five speakers at $1,700 was way over my original budget. &nbsp;I hope that I don't experience &quot;buyers remorse&quot;.

I was surprised to discover that the center channel speaker is very deep. &nbsp;When I saw the center speaker at Tweeter it was sandwiched between two speakers with larger fronts (taller and wider). The small front gave it the appearance of being lower in quality and I was concerned that Sapphire had skimped on its design and materials. &nbsp;However, upon opening the impossibly large box, my build quality concerns were allayed when I discovered that it is actually deep and heavy. &nbsp;The center also has a handy adjustable strut that enables the speaker to be tilted down toward the listener when placed on top of my Mitsubishi projection television.

My second trial of the Boston Acoustics VR950s and the Sapphire ST2s revealed the richer full range sound of the Sapphires. &nbsp;The Boston VR950s were an incredibly good speaker, with nice rich tones, but ultimately I wanted front speakers that could produce lower frequencies (30hz – 20khz) for home theater listening. &nbsp;The 10” side-firing woofer produces some nice rich bass.

I connected the front ST2s to my Onkyo receiver last night and listened to a classical and a jazz CD. &nbsp;The violin music on the classical CD was incredible, but the older recording of the jazz CD was less impressive. &nbsp;It is interesting to have speakers that reveal the lower quality of some CD recordings. &nbsp;Tonight, I will connect the center-speaker and wall mount the surrounds. &nbsp;It will be most interesting to try a DVD movie and a DVD audio. &nbsp;I was originally going to spend $300 on a pair of the Sapphire bookshelf speakers, but ultimately splurged on the Sapphire specialty “dipolar radiation” surrounds at $500. &nbsp;The cabinet on the surrounds is shallower and wider, which will look less obtrusive when mounted on the wall.

The ST2 fronts, being very tall (44”), narrow (6”), deep (15.2”) and heavy (54.1 lbs) were extremely awkward to unpack. &nbsp;But that attractive and quality design was one of the contributing factors to my decision.

My thanks to everyone who enjoyed reading or responding to my posts in the last few days. &nbsp;It is nice to have a community of people who enjoy discussing A/V equipment, as virtually everyone I know has virtually no interest in a subject that brings me great pleasure.</font>

 

[goodman]

<font color='#000000'>Congratulations, Allen. &nbsp;I hope you get years of enjoyment out of your new speakers.</font>

 

[allengarman]

<font color='#000000'>Last night I wall mounted the new Sapphire surrounds 5’ off the floor and a few inches behind the prime listening position. &nbsp;I left 2” between the speakers have the rear wall. &nbsp;I am not sure of what the ideal placement is for these speakers that feature a center woofer flanked by tweeters on angled side panels. &nbsp;Unfortunately, my couch is against the rear wall, so I don’t have the option of moving them farther back. &nbsp;Instinctively, I thought it better to leave them 2-inches from the corner. &nbsp;The Sapphire manual advised the 5-foot floor height and the horizontal position seems to be consistent with Dolby Labs recommendations of a side wall mount, slightly behind the listener’s head. &nbsp;

I temporally ran the speaker wire across the floor until I have time this weekend to properly run the wires through the floor into basement and up behind the receiver. &nbsp;I am also considering investing in some higher quality wires with spade connectors. &nbsp;Let me know if anyone has any suggestions on discount cables. &nbsp;I may check out Radio Shack’s offering, or splurge on something online. &nbsp;I would like to get something like the flat paintable cables from Monster for my rear speakers, as the wires must be run on the outside of my plaster walls. &nbsp;Does anyone have any experience with the ideal way to attach this type of flat speaker cable to the wall? &nbsp;Glue or 2-sided tape seem like potential options. &nbsp;Any sort of mechanical fasteners would seem too conspicuous.

Since my room is 11.5’ x 15, the 5 speakers all ended up being approximately 7-feet from the center of the couch. &nbsp;I am not sure what effect playing with the speaker distances on my Onkyo TXDS474 receiver will have on my sound field. &nbsp;The handy strut on the Sapphire center-speaker made angling it down toward the listener quite easy, which is something I never did with my old JBL center-speaker. &nbsp;

This is the first set of timbre-matched speakers that I have ever owned, so I expect significant improvement in sound quality. &nbsp;I have always been highly attentive to speaker placement with my old speakers all optimally wall mounted, but my front JBLs were not of the same series as my center JBL, and my rear Optimus were obviously a completely different brand. &nbsp;My lady and I watched our first movie with the new setup, “Finding Mahoney”. &nbsp;Not only was this movie boring and depressing, but also it was devoid of music or any interesting sound effects. &nbsp;I do have several other films at home, but thought it unwise to ask her to sit through the opening of “Gladiator” or “Saving Private Ryan”. &nbsp;“X-Men” is one of the films that I recall with the fantastic THX intro!

Later I tried out a DVD-A of organ music and the Talking Head’s film “Stop Making Sense”. &nbsp;

The high-resolution sound of the DVD-Audio organ music was spectacular as expected. But, it also sounded spectacular with my old setup. &nbsp;The new larger Sapphire fronts definitely gave a more impressive performance though, and the surrounds added the nice hall effects intended by the recording artists. &nbsp;In general, I felt a greater sense of being immersed in the music. &nbsp;The speakers now blend away into the room.

The second track of Stop Making Sense film contains a nice duet between the lead singer David Byrne playing acoustic guitar and the bass guitarist Tina Waymouth singing the haunting melody “Heaven”. &nbsp;Most of the audio in the disk comes from the front and center speakers, while the rears are primarily for ambient crowd applause and reflective sound. &nbsp;I don’t recall formerly hearing the way Tina’s voice echoed from the back speakers, creating a really incredible hall experience. &nbsp;You really feel that you are in the concert hall listening to the show. &nbsp;

I can’t wait to try out some of my old CDs or movies with good musical scores or sound effects. &nbsp;Having new speakers is a nice way to rediscover your old media.</font>