New klipsch reference premiere series will be shipping soon.

Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
The most recent revision of the Klipsch Reference line, the Reference Premeire series, was a huge step in the right direction for klipsch. It brought their speakers closer to "neutral" sounding, by eliminating the harsh high end resonances that plagued their previous generations of reference speakers, while retaining the benefits of Klipsch's commitment to horns/waveguides, higher than average efficiency, low distortion at high volumes, controlled directivity, and life-like dynamic range. While I do not have permission to share the graphs on here, @Dennis Murphy measured the RP-160m, and remarked that drivers within their passband, were some of the smoothest and flattest measuring he has ever come across, with very low linear and non-linear distortion. @KEW and I both spent a good amount of time comparing the Premeire series to speakers costing anywhere from 2-10x as much and were surprised to see that even when put up against speakers costing $1500-$3000 a pair, they performed close or comparably to the higher end speakers.

I'm addition, unlike previous versions of the reference series, where the tweeter was a few microseconds ahead of the woofer, the step response of the RP series shows that the woofer and tweeter are almost perfectly time aligned. Whether time alignment is beneficial or not, is a matter of debate (@Tlsguy seems to be of the opinion that it is).

There are still a few issues that need ironed out with the Premeire series, a rising response peaking at 16khz beginning at 10khz, not due to breakup or resonance, but likely as a function/failure of the phase plug or waveguide, gave them a slight bit of extra "air" in the presence region. While not objectionable sounding, it falls short of Klipsch's fourth principle of design: a flat frequency response with no unnatural highs or lows. The Rp-160m also has a bit of extra brightness due to the tweeter being about 2dB louder than the woofer (I have no idea why they were designed this way, as the 250c and 150m are flat at the xover point). If the latest design manages to smooth this out, these may just be the last speakers I'd ever need to own.


As for what's obviously been improved in the series, the tweeters are now vented. This should lower the tweeters fs and increase power handling, which is good because klipsch tend to cross their tweeters low.

They've also added a dual 6.5" center channel and 4.5" center, towers, and bookshelves. In addition, the new Atmos enabled module is now paired with a 5.25" woofer and larger horn, vs the smaller 4" rp-140sa. Not only will this increase efficiency and dynamic range, but the larger woofer and larger horn will better control directivity down at lower frequencies, I haven't had a chance to measure the Atmos modules off axis behavior, but I do know that at 90 degrees off axis the spl above 1khz of the rp-150m is down by about 12dB compared to the on axis spl. Since our brain determines directionality of a sound source at high frequencies mainly by level difference vs phase difference, this should theoretically improve the illusion that the sound is originating from the ceiling bounce rather than the speaker, especially in rooms with shorter ceilings (8'), where the early reflection will likely be only -6dB below the direct on axis sound, hopefully resulting in the reflected sound from the ceiling being louder than the off axis direct sound.

Cosmetic differences include a copper trim ring in the horn, and cast aluminum on the base, doing away with the plinth, which I found to be ugly and annoying. The front baffles are now also a satin black vs brushed aluminum texture. It also appears that cherry is no longer an option, only black and walnut. Personally I like the walnut and felt the cherry was too bright looking.

I know @KEW was planning on trying out the new premiere series when they're released, so hopefully he will update us on whether they're an improvement or not.


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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
These are currently shipping (may have been for a while, I haven't been maintaining a vigil).
Anybody checked them out yet?
I have a couple on order, but am backlogged, so not sure how soon I'll get to compare!
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I'm addition, unlike previous versions of the reference series, where the tweeter was a few microseconds ahead of the woofer, the step response of the RP series shows that the woofer and tweeter are almost perfectly time aligned. Whether time alignment is beneficial or not, is a matter of debate (@Tlsguy seems to be of the opinion that it is).
The absurd thing about time-aligning these drivers to such a fine degree is that it is well beyond human audibility. Furthermore, that only happens at a single plane in space on the horizontal axis. EVERYWHERE else is not time aligned. All acoustic reflections that occur in a vertical space will not be time-aligned so perfectly, and that is like 99.9% percent of them. If you want a real time-aligned sound, you need either an amazing coaxial speaker, or a full-range driver. Full-range drivers can have all sorts of problems.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
These are currently shipping (may have been for a while, I haven't been maintaining a vigil).
Anybody checked them out yet?
I have a couple on order, but am backlogged, so not sure how soon I'll get to compare!
I know that yepimonfire is a big fan of the newer Klipsch speakers, but I want a detailed measurement set before I get on board. I am not convinced they are as amazing as he says. Not to say they are bad speakers, but I want some hard evidence to prove the engineering that he thinks is evident.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
I know that yepimonfire is a big fan of the newer Klipsch speakers, but I want a detailed measurement set before I get on board. I am not convinced they are as amazing as he says. Not to say they are bad speakers, but I want some hard evidence to prove the engineering that he thinks is evident.
I have a few measurements I can post, also @dennismurphy took a FR measurement of the 160m and I don't believe I have permission to post them on here, but the individual response of the drivers is incredibly flat. One problem with the 160m is the tweeter is 2dB hot, and does show a rising response from 10khz to 16khz, however he doesn't believe it is due to breakup, perhaps the phase plug or waveguide.

Within their pass band however, the drivers measure +-1dB. Once I get situated moving I will take some extended thd measurements and test out their dynamic range.

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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I know that yepimonfire is a big fan of the newer Klipsch speakers, but I want a detailed measurement set before I get on board. I am not convinced they are as amazing as he says. Not to say they are bad speakers, but I want some hard evidence to prove the engineering that he thinks is evident.
I'm not sure if you are really talking about the new models as they were just released within the last months.
I am a fan of the Reference Premiere series that was introduced a couple (?) of years ago as it is the first Klipsch I have heard that I could point directly at me without feeling assaulted. My Klipsch RF-82ii's do not qualify on this count, but I find with careful adjustment of toe-in I can get an acceptable sound and they are "exciting" speakers for HT.
My intent was to replace the RF speakers with the RP model, but when I found out that a new RP series would be released this Summer/Fall, I decided to wait in case the newer version had something significant to offer.
Calling it the new RP series is confusing because the original RP series is still so new.

However, the model numbers are more clear.
Old 6" bookshelf is RP-160m
New 6" bookshelf is RP-600m
Old 8" tower is RP-280f
New 8" tower is RP-800f

The change most likely to be audible is the tweeter has been replaced. The new one is vented. I don't know if it is the exact same tweeter with a vent added or a substantially different driver.
So far I have not seen any commentary on the new models and even Amazon does not yet have any written reviews from customers, so it may be that it was just released!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
If you want a real time-aligned sound, you need either an amazing coaxial speaker, or a full-range driver. Full-range drivers can have all sorts of problems.
Do you know if most headphones attempt to attain time-alignment? It seems they would eliminate most of the sources of error you mentioned.
 
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S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Kew - Are you considering an Atmos theater setup in that room?
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Do you know if most headphones attempt to attain time-alignment? It seems they would eliminate most of the sources of error you mentioned.
Most headphones would definitely be time aligned. Most headphones only have one driver per ear and so are minimum phase systems.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
The absurd thing about time-aligning these drivers to such a fine degree is that it is well beyond human audibility. Furthermore, that only happens at a single plane in space on the horizontal axis. EVERYWHERE else is not time aligned. All acoustic reflections that occur in a vertical space will not be time-aligned so perfectly, and that is like 99.9% percent of them. If you want a real time-aligned sound, you need either an amazing coaxial speaker, or a full-range driver. Full-range drivers can have all sorts of problems.
I'm not sure if time alignment is that important either, but I do know it's easy to hear large differences in bass time alignment even if the FR appears flat. For example, one of the major corrections audyssey does is correction of both the response but also the phase. Sitting along the rear half of the room causes certain ranges of the bass to be almost 180 degrees out, and I can easily hear a difference between the corrected phase response and the uncorrected response, even though the response was flat to begin with. Out of time bass sounds slow and sloppy.

I don't think that the minor high q variations in time introduced from the room reflections really matter, but the question remains, if the tweeters output arrives earlier than the woofers, is that noticeable? I am not really sure, it'd be interesting to test out. I do know however that based on the step response of the RP series they're aligned, whether this is audible or not.

Everything past 6ms is room reflections.


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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Kew - Are you considering an Atmos theater setup in that room?
Not yet, I am somewhat HT illiterate! I am probably 95/5 music/HT and most of the TV I watch is talking heads rather than quality audio-video productions... I really don't watch movies at home very often. I have heard great things about atmos, but until I experience a good example of it, I am not in much hurry.
 
B

Beave

Audioholic Chief
I'm not sure if time alignment is that important either, but I do know it's easy to hear large differences in bass time alignment even if the FR appears flat. For example, one of the major corrections audyssey does is correction of both the response but also the phase. Sitting along the rear half of the room causes certain ranges of the bass to be almost 180 degrees out, and I can easily hear a difference between the corrected phase response and the uncorrected response, even though the response was flat to begin with. Out of time bass sounds slow and sloppy.

I don't think that the minor high q variations in time introduced from the room reflections really matter, but the question remains, if the tweeters output arrives earlier than the woofers, is that noticeable? I am not really sure, it'd be interesting to test out. I do know however that based on the step response of the RP series they're aligned, whether this is audible or not.

Everything past 6ms is room reflections.


Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

This measurement shows a speaker that isn't time aligned either; it's just way too large of a scale to see the details of the driver responses. Zoom in and just show the first 5 or 10 milliseconds and you will see individual peaks for the tweeter response followed by the woofer response.
 

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