New house need help / advice

[dave181]

Hey all. Just purchased a house a week ago and there are in ceiling speakers in a few rooms. i was able to locate the wires in my living room and was able to separate them and see what goes to what. My living room where the speakers come in off of has a set of wires 2 left and 2 right so that's the easy to work with. The other 3 locations, have 2 speakers each and volume controls (per 2) and it seems all 6 speakers are ran and use a single 4 conductor speaker wire that comes out of the wall. I have them plugged into a Sony STR-DG500 which is 100 watt 8ohm receiver. When i have them plugged in, my living room works great since they are ran independently but my other speakers don't work so well. My hallway speakers sound great, my den is pretty low, and then the outside is barely audible (with the volume knob turned all way up too).

My question is what do i need to buy in order to power these correctly?

 

[Gryph]

You’re working with a lot of unknowns so I’d suggest trouble shooting before any purchases.

It could be as simple as volume controls being wonky to the connections/voice coils in the speakers being corroded from exposure to lord knows what. So make sure you’ve found all the volume controls and start with them as a likely problem area.

I’d personally pull each speaker and visually inspect and have a jumper line from a verified signal source I could test each speaker with.
Then if all checks out at the speakers I’d start testing the wiring.

That’s just my non expert advice, I’m sure you’ll get further advice from those far more knowledgeable on the subject.

Best of luck.
GB

 

[2channel lover]

Hey all. Just purchased a house a week ago and there are in ceiling speakers in a few rooms. i was able to locate the wires in my living room and was able to separate them and see what goes to what. My living room where the speakers come in off of has a set of wires 2 left and 2 right so that's the easy to work with. The other 3 locations, have 2 speakers each and volume controls (per 2) and it seems all 6 speakers are ran and use a single 4 conductor speaker wire that comes out of the wall. I have them plugged into a Sony STR-DG500 which is 100 watt 8ohm receiver. When i have them plugged in, my living room works great since they are ran independently but my other speakers don't work so well. My hallway speakers sound great, my den is pretty low, and then the outside is barely audible (with the volume knob turned all way up too).

My question is what do i need to buy in order to power these correctly?

On the surface it sounds like you may have more speakers than your AVR can power in stereo mode or even mono mode. The wiring may be set up for mono playback which by itself is not a problem but who knows exactly what you're working with from a wiring standpoint.

In order to ensure that all 6 speaker have a power source, I think you need a multi-ch amp like this one...https://emotiva.com/collections/amps/products/a-800.

Linking that to your Sony is another question though....Or, an AVR or integrated stereo amp capable of powering 6 speakers.


Hopefully BMX will see your thread.

 

[BMXTRIX]

There is a lot going on here.

First, ignore your family room. The 4 speakers are likely setup to try to be the rooms left and right and surround left & right speakers for a 'surround' setup. Builders almost never know what the heck they are doing, so, they are likely the wrong speakers in the wrong location and not setup right at all. But, at least each speaker was individually run.

The rest of the house is still a HUGE question mark. I disagree that the Sony can't power them. Or, I partially disagree. The speakers should all sound the same. That is, they would all be quiet if the Sony didn't have enough power for one pair of speakers, it wouldn't have enough power for any of them.

So, it sounds like the wiring is SUPER wonky.

Three pairs of speakers (6 speakers) requires 12 wires to run them. The question becomes, how are things actually wired? Why aren't there 12 wires in your family room? One pair for each of the speakers? What is going on with the wiring such that it is so messed up?

My guess is that they ran four wires to the first volume control, then four wires to the next volume control, and so on. That they completely messed up the wiring.

If you turn up the volume all the way in the quieter areas, does adjusting the volume in the first area impact the volume in the other areas?

I'm not even sure of a good way to correct this, but I would think that you could rewire things, once you know what is going on behind the volume controls and I expect that behind the volume controls instead of four wires coming in (power from the amp) and four wires going up to speakers in the room, there is ALSO another set of four wires which is going on to another volume control.

If that's the case, how things are wired starts getting wonky and you will want to take photos and post them and describe what is going on behind the volume controls.

In a proper system, if you remove one volume control, it should have no impact on other rooms with other volume controls.

You shouldn't need to remove any speakers, but it really wouldn't hurt considering how screwy things are, just to make sure there is only one pair of wires going into each speaker and there aren't any stray wires connected up to the speakers as well.

 

[2channel lover]

There is a lot going on here.

First, ignore your family room. The 4 speakers are likely setup to try to be the rooms left and right and surround left & right speakers for a 'surround' setup. Builders almost never know what the heck they are doing, so, they are likely the wrong speakers in the wrong location and not setup right at all. But, at least each speaker was individually run.

The rest of the house is still a HUGE question mark. I disagree that the Sony can't power them. Or, I partially disagree. The speakers should all sound the same. That is, they would all be quiet if the Sony didn't have enough power for one pair of speakers, it wouldn't have enough power for any of them.

So, it sounds like the wiring is SUPER wonky.

Three pairs of speakers (6 speakers) requires 12 wires to run them. The question becomes, how are things actually wired? Why aren't there 12 wires in your family room? One pair for each of the speakers? What is going on with the wiring such that it is so messed up?

My guess is that they ran four wires to the first volume control, then four wires to the next volume control, and so on. That they completely messed up the wiring.

If you turn up the volume all the way in the quieter areas, does adjusting the volume in the first area impact the volume in the other areas?

I'm not even sure of a good way to correct this, but I would think that you could rewire things, once you know what is going on behind the volume controls and I expect that behind the volume controls instead of four wires coming in (power from the amp) and four wires going up to speakers in the room, there is ALSO another set of four wires which is going on to another volume control.

If that's the case, how things are wired starts getting wonky and you will want to take photos and post them and describe what is going on behind the volume controls.

In a proper system, if you remove one volume control, it should have no impact on other rooms with other volume controls.

You shouldn't need to remove any speakers, but it really wouldn't hurt considering how screwy things are, just to make sure there is only one pair of wires going into each speaker and there aren't any stray wires connected up to the speakers as well.

You may be right on the AVR, but looking as the back of it...I didn't see a way to connect 3 pairs of speakers without using CC, or surround speaker terminals. Maybe those would be okay to use, but output is sketchy.

 

[BMXTRIX]

You may be right on the AVR, but looking as the back of it...I didn't see a way to connect 3 pairs of speakers without using CC, or surround speaker terminals. Maybe those would be okay to use, but output is sketchy.

True that!

I'm under, perhaps the false assumption, that he disconnected the family room speakers and just hooked up the 'extra zones' to the main 'A' output, which is what he should have been doing for testing.

But, perhaps he hooked up the extra speakers connection in some other manner.

Still, since there is only one speaker connection running to the wall, instead of 3 pairs, as there should be, and he said audio was dropping in volume on subsequent speakers, it sounds like a wiring issue. I'm thinking it can be corrected... maybe.

 

[Ponzio]

What is the gauge of the cables? I've seen people try to use thin gauge (less than 26) cables ... security/phone wire ... for speakers over long distances with similar results that you're describing.

On a positive note you may be able to utilize the existing cables as a fish line to install thicker gauge cables for the longer runs.

 

[2channel lover]

True that!

I'm under, perhaps the false assumption, that he disconnected the family room speakers and just hooked up the 'extra zones' to the main 'A' output, which is what he should have been doing for testing.

But, perhaps he hooked up the extra speakers connection in some other manner.

Still, since there is only one speaker connection running to the wall, instead of 3 pairs, as there should be, and he said audio was dropping in volume on subsequent speakers, it sounds like a wiring issue. I'm thinking it can be corrected... maybe.

It would make the most sense to test using the main terminals...definitely some wiring issues going on. My brother in law who is a licensed electrician (not a low voltage guy)...he has some weird daisy chain type wiring connection for his in ceiling speakers...he's running 6 speakers off a 4 channel amp for his whole house music.

 

[dave181]

so just an update.

i lowered the volume on the 2 other speakers and it had no impact on the speakers with lowest audio

 

[dave181]

went back to the wiring, looks like everything is ran back from the volume controls to one central location then all the wires are tied together and ran over 4 wires. Any ideas?\

 

[dave181]

 

[BMXTRIX]

Well, that's really good.

Separate those wires. Then connect them, one pair at a time (red/black, then white/green) to your receiver. Just connect one speaker at a time and identify it.

You should hear audio playing from each speaker individually without any problem at all. The wire you are looking at (grey) should run from that location, to the volume control, and on to the speaker.

You will want to pull the volume control out of the wall and check to see if it has a impedance dip switch, or 'jumper' on it. Take a few photos of the volume control removed from the wall and maybe provide a make/model of the volume control to see if there is further assistance which can be offered.

I think there is a lot of potential here. Really, you have individual wires run and separate zones, so you can do a lot of what you may want to do. You can't really install keypads in place of volume controls (unfortunately), but you could add a phone controlled device.

You likely will need to get a speaker selector with impedance matching built in to get the best audio, or you will need a multi-channel amplifier which can deliver solid audio to the 3 stereo speaker zones. There things don't need to cost that much, and eBay has some great values available.

 

[dave181]

Well, that's really good.

Separate those wires. Then connect them, one pair at a time (red/black, then white/green) to your receiver. Just connect one speaker at a time and identify it.

You should hear audio playing from each speaker individually without any problem at all. The wire you are looking at (grey) should run from that location, to the volume control, and on to the speaker.

You will want to pull the volume control out of the wall and check to see if it has a impedance dip switch, or 'jumper' on it. Take a few photos of the volume control removed from the wall and maybe provide a make/model of the volume control to see if there is further assistance which can be offered.

I think there is a lot of potential here. Really, you have individual wires run and separate zones, so you can do a lot of what you may want to do. You can't really install keypads in place of volume controls (unfortunately), but you could add a phone controlled device.

You likely will need to get a speaker selector with impedance matching built in to get the best audio, or you will need a multi-channel amplifier which can deliver solid audio to the 3 stereo speaker zones. There things don't need to cost that much, and eBay has some great values available.

Thanks so much! i'll take pic tonight. Would love some recommendations, not looking for anything crazy.

 

[BMXTRIX]

You and this guy have similar multiroom audio going on...

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-av-room-day-1-help-with-niles-request.115023/

 

[dave181]

You and this guy have similar multiroom audio going on...

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-av-room-day-1-help-with-niles-request.115023/

Ah yes we do wow !

Btw this is the audio control

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v3b6j6e04t2nk9c/Photo Jun 12, 8 45 21 PM.jpg?dl=0

 

[dave181]

I bought this, is this correct?

OSD Audio 4-Channel Selector Switch Speaker Pair – High Power Stereo - ISS4 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DW6MWE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_Z5zaDbSC3AW5R

 

[BMXTRIX]

That is similar to the Niles SS4. If reviews are solid on the OSD product, which I would expect it to be, then it should work fine. You definitely want to leave protection 'ON' with the speaker selector.

Keep in mind, now you want to think about your source. What source do you want to feed to the three speakers? Remember, they all play the same thing at once, your only volume control option in the three rooms will be the volume control on the wall. You will have to hook up analog (red/white) audio to the amplifier/AV receiver to get audio to these zones.

So, let's say your Sony is going to be the main and ONLY source for these three areas of audio.

Plug your sources into the Sony using red/white analog audio connections. It helps that your Sony has a lot of these connections on it.

Plug the red/black left channel into the OSD input left positive and negative connections. Do the same with the red/black right channel.
Plug the speaker wires into the red/black (right) and white/green (left) output channels of the OSD speaker selector. Repeat for all three rooms.
Check your volume control to ensure that red/black is the +/- input for the right channel of audio and that white/green is the +/- for the right channel. This should be clearly labeled on the Russound volume control that you are using. Page 8 of the manual directs you to the exact connection points...
https://www.russound.com/component/edocman/alt-126r-manual-070114-pdf/download

After all the connections look good...

Turn on your source (CD player for example) and play back some audio.
Turn on the Sony and set the volume WAY up - it should be at 0dB or about +80 if the range is 0-100. This should provide plenty of power for the volume controls to go up/down through quite nicely.

Let us know the results!

 

[Thad]

You’re working with a lot of unknowns so I’d suggest trouble shooting before any purchases.

It could be as simple as volume controls being wonky to the connections/voice coils in the speakers being corroded from exposure to lord knows what. So make sure you’ve found all the volume controls and start with them as a likely problem area.

I’d personally pull each speaker and visually inspect and have a jumper line from a verified signal source I could test each speaker with.
Then if all checks out at the speakers I’d start testing the wiring.

That’s just my non expert advice, I’m sure you’ll get further advice from those far more knowledgeable on the subject.

Best of luck.
GB

Nice answer