New House - Big Family Room - Separates or AVR

[kurtkrum]

Guys (or even Gals) - My family room measures 20.5' wide and 17' deep with 9' ceilings. But here's the curveball: It's sort of an open floor plan that has almost no back wall because it opens into the kitchen/dinette area.

I am going to install a larger plasma, 5.1 surround (for now...7.x later). My first step is upgrading my front L and R speakers and I am going to demo a bunch of B&W speakers this weekend. I am upgrading from a Yamaha power amp with def tech home theater speakers. I am keeping my def tech sub and center. I will be recessing surround speakers in the ceiling behind the sofa (no idea what brand to buy and don't care just yet).

Question: Will the Denon x4000 be enough to power these front speakers in such a large space, or am I looking at the need for separates?

As far as features and use go, this will be split 50/50 video vs. music, I listen to all music from baroque to industrial/rock, and I need to ability to pipe music to 2nd and 3rd zones. The Denon seems perfect from a feature set yet I am unsure if it has the umph to fill that space.

Thanks in advance!
Kurt

 

[rojo]

I don't think you can go wrong with the Denon X4000. You mentioned possibly going to 7.x later -- x meaning maybe dual subs? That Denon is the lowest common denominator (except maybe an Onkyo of some sort) that includes Audyssey Sub EQ HT. That feature is a great way to integrate and correct dual subwoofers individually. I think the X4000 will offer plenty of power; but if it turns out it's not enough, it has pre-amp outs for all channels so you can add an external amplifier (Emotiva XPA-5 for example) later if you need to. I think you've made a great choice.

 

[PENG]

Question: Will the Denon x4000 be enough to power these front speakers in such a large space, or am I looking at the need for separates?

Please read and find out what your score is, and you may get your answer right there.

When to Add External Amplification to an A/V Receiver | Audioholics

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

To add what has been already said - B&W is not the answer to everything (42 is ).... (there are bunch of other, sometimes better and cheaper speakers)
Also Do not mix and match l/c/r - they need to be matching from same brand/series

 

[kurtkrum]

Points Assessed	+0	+1	+2
Listening Habits	Conversation level (60-70dB)	Moderate to high (75-85 dB)	Headbangers ball to the walls, turn it to volume 11
Room Size	< 1500ft^3	up to 3,000 ft^3	> 3,000ft^3
Speaker Load	8 ohms > 90dB efficiency	8 ohms < 90dB efficiency	4 ohm < 90dB efficiency
Bass Management	Yes, crossing over speakers to dedicated sub	No, running them fullrange
Score	Max = 0	Max = +4	Max = +6

<tbody>
</tbody>

Listening habits: 1
Room Size: 2
Speaker load: 1
Bass management: 0
Score = 4

Looks like I'm borderline. Didn't think about the pitfalls of mixing brands - you're probably right that I should shop for a center from the same running line.

As I demo speakers I might like something else that requires more current, so I guess I won't know for sure until after the demo this weekend.

Thanks for guidance, guys!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Most likely the X4000 will be enough for most speakers and most situations as long as you don't use Stereo 7Ch mode and have adequate ventilation. However, if things change, you can always add external amps later.

I wouldn't worry about it.

And as far as room size goes, I don't there is any difference between 3000 C.F and 3,136 C.F. So you can probably take the score down by one.

My room is 18' x 20' x 12' and wide open to 3 sides. My Denon 3312 has no problem at all driving 4 ohms, 85dB/2.83V/m speakers in 2.0 full range to 94dB volume from 15' away.

 

[herbu]

Agree with above comments. Suggest you start w/ the X4000 and the best front l/r/c speakers and subwoofer within your budget. You can add the surrounds, and an amp like the Emotiva XPA-5 later if you want.

Like you, I have a large room. Went w/ the X4000. Later added an XPA-5. Then added a second subwoofer. It sounds great! But it sounded great before the XPA-5. Love that the X4000 lets me control the 2 subs separately. Would not bet the farm that the XPA-5 made a difference at volumes we use.

Within the audiophile community, the X4000 is considered high function, high quality, and mainstream.
(A special nod here to AcuDefTechGuy. )

 

[cpp]

Most likely the X4000 will be enough for most speakers and most situations as long as you don't use Stereo 7Ch mode and have adequate ventilation. However, if things change, you can always add external amps later.

I wouldn't worry about it.

And as far as room size goes, I don't there is any difference between 3000 C.F and 3,136 C.F. So you can probably take the score down by one.

My room is 18' x 20' x 12' and wide open to 3 sides. My Denon 3312 has no problem at all driving 4 ohms, 85dB/2.83V/m speakers in 2.0 full range to 94dB volume from 15' away.

I must say I agree, my room since we moved back to Fla, is 30'x20'x10' and very open. My great room where the Denon 4311 lives opens to the kitchen and breakfast nook area. The Denon works just fine powering my 5.1 system. OF course I do not reside in my kitchen and listen to music or watch TV or movies so the 4311 can get pretty loud just like it is in the area around the great room. Of course my speakers are easy to drive which helps.

 

[RichB]

My system score was a 6. 4500 Sq. foot room (with openings), 87DB rated Salons.

I listened a 2-channel CD rips were somewhat compressed. Dynamic Range (DR) of around 8.
I turned it up so a Radio Shack meter measured peaks of 92 DB (fast mode).
After about 1/2 hour the heat sinks on the A51 measured 135 F.
This is louder than I would normally listen to music, but I want a system that can handle occasional excesses

Conventional wisdom is that with these measurements, I should be using under 100 watts.
That cannot be the case, for the heat produced. The A51 has more heat-sink area that most class a/b receivers cannot tolerate this thermal load.
They would either go into protection or current limit and compress the sound.

Watching TV/Movies, the amp is only warm not stressed at all.

IMO, The AH external amplification table is pretty good.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I must say I agree, my room since we moved back to Fla, is 30'x20'x10' and very open. My great room where the Denon 4311 lives opens to the kitchen and breakfast nook area. The Denon works just fine powering my 5.1 system. OF course I do not reside in my kitchen and listen to music or watch TV or movies so the 4311 can get pretty loud just like it is in the area around the great room. Of course my speakers are easy to drive which helps.

Your room is 6,000 c.f. Pretty big. Most of us listen to pretty loud volume, but just not to stupid punk volume level.

So I think the volume is the biggest factor, not most room sizes and most speakers.

 

[PENG]

My system score was a 6. 4500 Sq. foot room (with openings), 87DB rated Salons.

I listened a 2-channel CD rips were somewhat compressed. Dynamic Range (DR) of around 8.
I turned it up so a Radio Shack meter measured peaks of 92 DB (fast mode).
After about 1/2 hour the heat sinks on the A51 measured 135 F.
This is louder than I would normally listen to music, but I want a system that can handle occasional excesses

Conventional wisdom is that with these measurements, I should be using under 100 watts.
That cannot be the case, for the heat produced. The A51 has more heat-sink area that most class a/b receivers cannot tolerate this thermal load.
They would either go into protection or current limit and compress the sound.

Watching TV/Movies, the amp is only warm not stressed at all.

IMO, The AH external amplification table is pretty good.

- Rich

Now I know why that happened to you, 4500 sq. ft is just 45 ft X 100 ft, even with a low 8 ft ceiling the volume will be 36,000 cu.ft. That could be way too big for a 250W per channel amp depend on your speaker placement and sitting positions.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now I know why that happened to you, 4500 sq. ft is just 45 ft X 100 ft, even with a low 8 ft ceiling the volume will be 36,000 cu.ft. That could be way too big for a 250W per channel amp depend on your speaker placement and sitting positions.

Silly.

My Denon 3312 has absolutely no problem at all with 85dB/2.83v/m 4 ohms nominal speakers + 94dB max in a 4,230 C.F. room open to 3 sides from 15 Ft way. The music sounds loud even at 30 Ft away (open room).

 

[PENG]

Silly.

My Denon 3312 has absolutely no problem at all with 85dB/2.83v/m 4 ohms nominal speakers + 94dB max in a 4,230 C.F. room open to 3 sides from 15 Ft way. The music sounds loud even at 30 Ft away (open room).

Hey I did qualify my statement. 4500 sq. ft could equal 30X150 ft so he could be sitting almost 150 ft away!! Okay now it is silly..

 

[cpp]

Your room is 6,000 c.f. Pretty big. Most of us listen to pretty loud volume, but just not to stupid punk volume level.

So I think the volume is the biggest factor, not most room sizes and most speakers.

No punk music in this household, jazz, smooth jazz, classic rock, bluegrass instrumentals, blues some classical and Celtic . Yes it's a big room typical of most Fla beach homes with wide open spaces.

Agree volume is one of the biggest factors along with a well made recording.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Actually the room size shouldn't even be part of the equation. It's really the listening distance. For example, when you are outdoors, you can still hear the music very loudly from an AVR as long as you are only 15-20' away. So the room size could be 1 million feet x 1 million feet as long as the listening distance is only 15-20 ft away.

 

[cpp]

Actually the room size shouldn't even be part of the equation. It's really the listening distance. For example, when you are outdoors, you can still hear the music very loudly from an AVR as long as you are only 15-20' away. So the room size could be 1 million feet x 1 million feet as long as the listening distance is only 15-20 ft away.

So true, but I feel the room reflections are the only thing you worry about if you want that "true" sound. Sure sound it sound but at what quality do you want to hear it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So true, but I feel the room reflections are the only thing you worry about if you want that "true" sound. Sure sound it sound but at what quality do you want to hear it.

Yeah, but again, in most living rooms with curtains, shades, sofas, pillows, carpets, rugs, books, etc., most people don't have to worry about room reflections.

Audiophiles worry too much.

 

[RichB]

Now I know why that happened to you, 4500 sq. ft is just 45 ft X 100 ft, even with a low 8 ft ceiling the volume will be 36,000 cu.ft. That could be way too big for a 250W per channel amp depend on your speaker placement and sitting positions.

I must have suffered some brain freeze from typing while at the ice rink.

The room is 30x15x10 which is 4500 C.F.
These is a 15 foot opening on one side and and 8 foot opening to a 16 foot room in back. It seems to act as a bass trap, because you find it there.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The open space (formal living + formal dining) to the right of my family room is 20' x 40' x 15' ceiling = 12,000 C.F. or 800 S.F. It is a large rectangular space.

Yesterday I was home alone so I brought the Focal 826 + Denon 3312 into this space. The Focal 826 has a minimum impedance of 2.6 ohms at 119Hz, phase angle of -54 degrees @ 94Hz, sensitivity is 90dB/2.83v/m.

I sat 15' away and turned the volume up to as high as I was willing to tolerate. The SPL reads 93dB MAX in Direct 2.0 mode.

No compression sound, no clipping, and most importantly everything sounded fabulous.

Personally, I would put the room size to rest.

I really hate changing the air filter in this space. Why the heck did they have to put the air filter and light bulbs on 15' ceiling?

 

[agarwalro]

The open space (formal living + formal dining) to the right of my family room is 20' x 40' x 15' ceiling = 12,000 C.F. or 800 S.F. It is a large rectangular space.

Yesterday I was home alone so I brought the Focal 826 + Denon 3312 into this space. The Focal 826 has a minimum impedance of 2.6 ohms at 119Hz, phase angle of -54 degrees @ 94Hz, sensitivity is 90dB/2.83v/m.

I sat 15' away and turned the volume up to as high as I was willing to tolerate. The SPL reads 93dB MAX in Direct 2.0 mode.

No compression sound, no clipping, and most importantly everything sounded fabulous.

What were you playing? Dolphin squeaks? .