New Home Theatre

[snmhanson]

First off, sorry for the long post. I am trying to be brief yet detailed at the same time. Hoping for some advice on equipment selection for a home theatre I am trying to outfit. It is a combination rec room (pool table, poker, etc...) and theatre room with a large slider and four windows so there will be some ambient light (although we will be installing heavy curtains). Total room dimensions are ~23' wide x28' deep with about half of the depth reserved for the theatre and viewing area. We built the room out of ICF and I intentionall put in some angles and a soffit so we didn't end up with a perfectly square box. I can also modify the room slightly by adding sound deadening material, etc... if necessary. We will probably use the system more for movies but will also use it a bit for music listening both with local sources and by borrowing two speakers for our whole-house audio system. Anyway, the room is complete including pre-wiring and it is time to start looking at equipment. I am looking at mid to higher level consumer grade equipment with a budget somewhere between 5,000 to 10,000. Here are some of the options I am considering:

Projector - Probably the Panasonic AE3000U based on it's features for the price. Initial reviews and details inidicate it is going to be tough to beat without spending at least $8,000 or so. Other projectors I am considering are the Epson 1080UB and the Optoma HD806 but if the Panasonic is as good as it sounds I don't see any reason to go with anything else.

Receiver - Sound quality is important to me and of course it needs to be a good match for whatever speakers I end up with. Aside from that though I really do want alot of the extra features found on many receivers such as upconverting to 1080p, the ability to customize source names and other features that will make it easier to set up the projector and for my wife and kids to use it. I really like the looks of the Nad T-775 but it is probably out of my price range. I could swing $1,500 or maybe a little more for it but $2500 is more than I can spend. I have occassionally seen it for under $2000 so maybe I could swing it if everything comes together. Other than that I am looking at the Marantz SR7002 or a Denon or possibly a Sony.

Speakers - I am currently entertaining three speakers choices. Aperion is first on the list because they seem to offer a good value and they are only an hour from my house. I have also looked at Axiom since they are the most direct competitor with Aperion. In both of those lines I would likely go with their top of the line towers and center with a pair of dipole surrounds and maybe add some rear surround down the road. I would probably not get a sub right off the bat as I have one that I can use for the time being. The other speaker line I am looking at is Paradigm because there is a dealer just a few minutes away. My concern is that I would not get as good of quality and as much power for the price as I would with either of the other two. However, I do like the idea of supporting the local dealer so if the price was close or if it price was the same for a reasonably close product I would definately give them a shot. Of course, an overriding factor is that the speakers have to sound good with the receiver.

Other than that I will be getting components such as a blue-ray player, HD satellite receiver, game station, etc... I will probably get a Nevo Q50 remote but may stick with a Universal MX-700 since I already have a few that we use elsewhere. I guess I am basically asking for help in my equipment selection in terms of what would work well for my needs as well as what selection of components would create the best synergy (mainly speaker-receiver combo). I don't have the time or local resources to try different speakers and receivers so I just want to make a decision and stick with it. I am not married to the choices I mentioned above, they are just what stood out to me after doing some initial research. Buying and getting everything set up is going to be a several month process (hopefully by Christmas) but once I get things narrowed down a bit I can start shopping for deals and talking to dealers.

Thanks for any help and input,

Matt

 

[jostenmeat]

"First off", do the sound deadening thing. Particularly room treatments. First reflections. You can google or look to Real Traps and GIK for educational resources. Movie rooms are desired to be dead, and typically more so than music rooms.

Projector: the Pana 3000 is a great value, and even more so because of the focus/shift preset. However, if you are not going with a 2.35:1 screen, but a 16:9, I fully expect other PJs at $8k to leave the Panny in the dust. You might have read "$8k" with the costs of anamorphic lens and sled in the budget.

Receiver: If it was me, I would get the MINIMUM features necessary, with preouts, add an amp. If dollars were short, I could probably find a Yam 663 for less than $300, and add a heavy duty amp for $800-1000, which is well within your budget. The 663 does have a couple of limitations. If upscaling to 1080p is really that important to you, Id get no less than Reon. The Onkyo 905 and 875 are both in your present budget. OTOH, if video is REEEAALLY important, I might save up for outboard VP. But that's $$$$. But you won't beat that either. Word of warning: don't expect miracles with overcompressed TV signals. DVDs... mebbe. Anyways, the 905/875 will have a much beefier amp than an entry level like the 663, and the need for an outboard amp is considerably reduced.

Speakers: by far the most subjective part. If it was me, going blind, I'd go Paradigm of your three choices. I haven't heard a single Paradigm, Aperion, or Axiom. Just beware the sensitivity of any Aperion you choose, for some are too low for very effective HT, IMO.

 

[snmhanson]

Thanks for the reply. As far as audio and video quality, I should rephrase that I want acceptable performance in each category for my situation and for what I am looking at spending. I am not expecting stellar performance, although any surprises would be nice. In other words, I am not super discerning when it comes to A/V equipment and just want a pleasing result without any surprises. Basically, other factors may trump performance in either of those area.

Concerning video, I want the image to look nice and since I am going with a large screen I figure it is important to give the video capabilities a little attention. However, since all of my sources will be HD (720p and 1080p) with maybe a few SD DVDs thrown in I am hoping that most options will provide an adequate picture. I know it is a stance that is frowned upon by many on this board but as long as I get a decent/acceptable picture I really want to focus on equipment that will be versitile and easy to use. The idea of having a receiver and making one selection to tune in the video and audio and have everything ready to go is going to be a requirement for my wife. She is really into the KISS theory.

For audio, I want something that is well rounded and assuming the receiver offers all of the features I am after and the video output is acceptable I want to put any extra funds into the audio side of the equation. Once again, I am not an audiophile but do appreciate something that sounds nice - especially when it is played loud. That is why I was interested in the Nad receiver. It has all of the features I am after and from what I have heard it is a step above the mainstream receivers when it comes to sound quality. I have never heard one myself though and don't know for sure how much better it might be. I have heard good things about Onkyo but I was a little put off by some reports about them overheating more than other lines. Not sure as to the validity of those claims though.

Thanks for the input on the speakers. Although I said I didn't really want to demo anything, that was the one plus I did see with the Aperion speakers. They have a liberal return policy and with them being relatively close it wouldn't be out of the question to bring them back if I didn't like them. Plus I wouldn't be stuck with shipping charges and hassles. Still, I like the looks of Paradigm and would love to get them locally. Maybe I will start by talking to the local dealer and see what we could do there. I live in a small town where relationships are very important so I just want to be careful about taking up alot of his time if I end up going with something else.

Thanks again for the input. I don't know if I am clarifying myself more or just adding more pieces to the puzzle.

Matt

 

[PSWii60]

I don't want to play fan boy here but I have the Aperion 6 series in my theater paired with their S12 sub I think they sound great. They are a little on the bright side but they have great dynamic range, after adding acoustic treatments it really helped flatten things out. I'm looking at getting some PSB's for my living area, more for the asthetics though. I like their new Imagine series. Check them out also, PSB falls into the range of what your looking at now. Pioneer Elite makes superb receivers also with lots of power.

 

[Davemcc]

I'll certainly vouch for the video implementation of the Reon HQV chip in the Onkyo 875/905. My video is way, way better since I replaced my Denon with the Integra with the Reon. If you are unsure about which speakers you are going to get, I'd look at the Onkyo 905 or 906 with the torroidal transformer. That way, even if you end up with the 4 ohm Axioms, you won't have to worry about using an external amp. The 905 will drive just about any speakers you choose.

 

[jostenmeat]

Thanks for the reply. As far as audio and video quality, I should rephrase that I want acceptable performance in each category for my situation and for what I am looking at spending. I am not expecting stellar performance, although any surprises would be nice. In other words, I am not super discerning when it comes to A/V equipment and just want a pleasing result without any surprises. Basically, other factors may trump performance in either of those area.

5k-10k? I've told my friends recently that I can build an HT that puts the local theater to shame in both video and audio, all equipment, rack, remote, cabling, for $6k all in. The extra possible $4k you have should go into HT seating, room treatments, and other possibilities, like outboard amp, etc.

So, feel free to be super discerning. The game here is allocating money in the right way to get you discernable improvements per dollar. The receiver purchase is probably the easiest way to misallocate dollars, IMO.

Concerning video, I want the image to look nice and since I am going with a large screen I figure it is important to give the video capabilities a little attention. However, since all of my sources will be HD (720p and 1080p) with maybe a few SD DVDs thrown in I am hoping that most options will provide an adequate picture. I know it is a stance that is frowned upon by many on this board but as long as I get a decent/acceptable picture I really want to focus on equipment that will be versitile and easy to use. The idea of having a receiver and making one selection to tune in the video and audio and have everything ready to go is going to be a requirement for my wife. She is really into the KISS theory.

OK. So if its just a few SD DVDs, forget spending that extra $500-$5000 towards VP. Your bluray player will upconvert fine enough for now, at least for someone who is not an insane videophile. As for ease, as highly as Denon is respected, their manuals leave a lot to be desired. Onkyo is really the easiest I've ever seen. I recommend the remote that I use. It works on RF, and the system package with blaster and emitters is only $80. The RF-20 + blaster combo. Though a few others disagree, I think URC is better, easier, more reliable, less expensive, less of a headache than Logitech. And I've owned both, and programmed multiples of each. Get it. You can hide your components as well now.

For audio, I want something that is well rounded and assuming the receiver offers all of the features I am after and the video output is acceptable I want to put any extra funds into the audio side of the equation. Once again, I am not an audiophile but do appreciate something that sounds nice - especially when it is played loud. That is why I was interested in the Nad receiver. It has all of the features I am after and from what I have heard it is a step above the mainstream receivers when it comes to sound quality. I have never heard one myself though and don't know for sure how much better it might be. I have heard good things about Onkyo but I was a little put off by some reports about them overheating more than other lines. Not sure as to the validity of those claims though.

I own a 70lb NAD amp. I've also owned a pre/pro of theirs. I also own a Camridge Audio integrated, and an Onkyo receiver that replaced the NAD. This, in all honesty, should be the least of your concerns. The receiver choice for some reason attracts noobies like flies on you-know-what, but it has such little bearing on your AV experience, purely outside of (again) the MINIMUM features that you require. In fact, noobies love starting with the receiver so much they buy it before the speakers! You keep repeating yourself in wanting features, but you never mentioned a single one outside of 1080p, which IMO is a misallocation of money already. If you don't know what features you want, you probably don't need them.

All of the above were responses to your paragraphs. Now, its my turn . . . (good thing I had an early dinner, cuz this is going to be long, I might even have to break this up into multipe posts if I break the word count limit).

A few facts to lay down a bit of foundation:
- darker is better for PJ system. Look towards light control, and dark EVERYTHING, including walls.
- 38% or 62% of room length is the accepted starting point for listener positioning, or you can also think of odd dimension ratios like 1/3, 2/5, 3/7 . . .
- ear level is best for ALL speakers, and that includes your surrounds.
- having the setup lengthwise in the room, along the greatest dimension, is beneficial for audio.

Other little recs since I think of them now, and don't want to forget:
- Monoprice for all of your cabling needs. There, I just saved you hundreds.
- That URC remote

The All Important Front Soundstage:
Three identical towers for your fronts. By having the identical tower, you will be:

- perfectly matched as matched can be, in all speaker characteristics
- even plane of tweeters/drivers for perfect and even panning
- completely bypass horizontal lobing issues inherent in a horiz mtm design, which usually means a sweetspot at less than 20 degrees.
- horiz cabinet means vertical dispersion as opposed to horiz dispersion. Sound likes to travel along the path of least resistance (smallest dimension), so to speak.
- less stuff/mass/material in-between your speakers that would otherwise destroy stereo, or m-ch, imaging.
- better video immersion without all the lights up front
- best of all, money in the pocket

If it indeed must be horizontal, the best designs will be such as top mounted tweeter (ie B&W), WTMW (ie Revel, AV123), or coincidental (KEF).

Now, if you have only one loveseat, for 1-2 viewers, not as big of a deal, assuming you sit straight on. If you have more than one couch, my suggestions just only regarding center design will benefit you greatly.

Now, Let's Do This One Better:
Acoustically Transparent screen will allow you to have the dialogue perfectly centered and locked into display. Now, with the Pana 3000, you can go with 2.35/2.40 screen, and still be able to do 3 towers without the AT. But the AT is better.

Now, Let's Do This Two Better:
False Wall. Simple frame covered with acoustically transparent material such as GOM (guillford of maine). Now, you won't have any reflections off of your speakers or sub, and will be utterly immerssed in a sea of black.

How Big is Big?
THX recommends 36 deg viewing angle, SMPTE recommends 30 deg. Bear in mind this is for 16:9 AR (aspect ratio). I use 42, and people with anamorphic setups often go 50 or even greater. However, the all important factor is personal preference. My suggestion is throw up the pic for a solid week before finalizing screen size. In any case, you can use this viewing angle calculator:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html

*The one issue of going VERY big is that your lumens will be spread out too much for a PJ that is not a light cannon. In this type of case (or also if there's too much ambient lighting), a high power screen can be nice. Its what I use, but I sacrifice narrower viewing cone, impossibility of AT, necessary PJ mounting as close to eye level as possible. OTOH, a pic with pop, resistant to waves, and very affordable.

I think all of the above is enough to chew on for now. Are we in the Beginner's Forum? ruh roh.

If I was in your shoes, I'd foresee myself going with:
- dual subs, both up front. Or possibly at opposing midwall points
- three towers for damn sure if screen allowed it to
- cheapest receiver with only the minimum features necessary
- an outboard amp
- room treatments for damn sure. Id budget at least 1k I think.

My, um, 2 cents. Feel free to click the "thanks" button on the lower right of my post . . .

 

[PSWii60]

everything he said

 

[jamie2112]

Damn Josten you just killed that ...SWEET POST..

 

[Davemcc]

While I appreciate Josten's comments, I have to say that I tried the cheap receiver + separate amp combo and it didn't work out for me. Lackluster video performance drove me nuts and that was with a 40" and a 50" LCD. I'd hate to imagine if I had to view that image through a much larger PJ image. Moving to a Reon based unit was a good move for me.

I can imagine what's going to happen when the OP tries to watch an upconverted SD channel through the satellite box on a 70" screen. There's a good chance that the SD channels will look awful with all the compression artifacts. Moving to the 905 also gets you mosquito noise reduction and block artifact reduction with the Reon processor. Anyway, my experience tells me that this is a significant upgrade for anybody that considers video quality remotely important. I would suggest a call to Onkyo to confirm that the 906 also carries MNR and BAR as their web page does not specifically state that it's still included, although it is the same processor in the 905 and 906.

Besides, when the OP is going to spend about $5K on speakers, the price of the 905/906 is not out of line considering that it also eliminates the need for a separate amplifier. Plus, it meets the OP's other needs of being simple to set up, operate and explain to the wife. As for features, the OP may not know what he wants yet, but when he does find out what he wants, the 906 most likely already has it from network audio streaming, HD radio, Audessey, 4 ohm stable and all the new codecs.

Just my $.02.

 

[jostenmeat]

I can imagine what's going to happen when the OP tries to watch an upconverted SD channel through the satellite box on a 70" screen. There's a good chance that the SD channels will look awful with all the compression artifacts.

Dave, how exactly did you interpret the following?

However, since all of my sources will be HD (720p and 1080p) with maybe a few SD DVDs thrown in I am hoping that most options will provide an adequate picture.

Besides, when the OP is going to spend about $5K on speakers, the price of the 905/906 is not out of line considering that it also eliminates the need for a separate amplifier.

Actually, 5k is near his entire budget. I've been posting with the rough budget of maybe $8k with everything including projector, screen, remote, rack, cabling, acoustic treatments, HT seating in there as well.

As for features, the OP may not know what he wants yet, but when he does find out what he wants, the 906 most likely already has it from network audio streaming, HD radio, Audessey, 4 ohm stable and all the new codecs.

Just my $.02.

A sub $300 pre/pro will then give him plenty of time to really finalize what he wants when he does upgrade. IMO, there is nothing else that gets superceded as quickly as the processor does anyways. There are folks landing the 663 for only $240 as of late. If he did buy the 906, and wants to upgrade, he has to buy that amp all over again. And its also more expensive than the cheap receiver + outboard amp as well.

Moreover, we've yet to get into any details of features. One thing that the OP did mention is that he wanted it loud. Decent sized room.

I would probably amend my spending allocation if thinking $10k, and put $2k into treatments since Im not the DIY type for this kind of thing. Taming the room will allow decent and/or tolerable SQ at higher volumes.

 

[Phil Taylor]

Damn Josten - you ever thought about writing a book? I think you have "meat" there for a few chapters already. VERY solid advice.

 

[jostenmeat]

Damn Josten - you ever thought about writing a book? I think you have "meat" there for a few chapters already. VERY solid advice.

Thank you, that's certainly a compliment going by your link. I have to admit helping others with AV has become my #1 hobby this year, maybe last year too.

Its like a fun game to me, with the variables of:

- how much info the OP decides to leave out
- budget
- needs
- being abreast of present day components, their features, and costs

Then there are the eternal battles between

- performance vs WAF
- audio vs video
- knowledge vs lack therof ("it can't really matter, can it?" ie treatments, center speaker design, listener positioning . . .)

 

[Davemcc]

Dave, how exactly did you interpret the following?

I see that he is using an HD satellite receiver which implies that he is watching TV with the system. Presumably, he would want to watch all the channels the satellite provides, including SD channels. I've seen how bad an upconverted SD satellite image can get as the screen size increases. When using a PJ to throw a large image, it would be a shame not to consider the quality of video signal in the equation. There really was a great increase in video quality when I switched to the Reon based Integra.

Actually, 5k is near his entire budget. I've been posting with the rough budget of maybe $8k with everything including projector, screen, remote, rack, cabling, acoustic treatments, HT seating in there as well.

As for the budget, he stated $5-$10K. A top line Aperion system such as the OP mentioned in his initial post, with a good sub or two, will come in at about $5K, give or take. He suggests maybe getting the sub later but I'm not so sure for HT use that running without a sub is that great an idea. If $5K is indeed near his entire budget, the choice of speakers will have to be adjusted to accommodate his other gear.

A sub $300 pre/pro will then give him plenty of time to really finalize what he wants when he does upgrade. IMO, there is nothing else that gets superceded as quickly as the processor does anyways. There are folks landing the 663 for only $240 as of late. If he did buy the 906, and wants to upgrade, he has to buy that amp all over again. And its also more expensive than the cheap receiver + outboard amp as well.

Moreover, we've yet to get into any details of features. One thing that the OP did mention is that he wanted it loud. Decent sized room.

The least expensive separate amp is the Emotiva XPA-5 or variation of some kind. Adding a $300 receiver brings the total to around $1K for basic functionality. I just wanted to mention that I had gone that route and found it somewhat lacking. Now, when as you say the OP will finally realize what features he wants, he can upgrade from the cheap receiver. But no doubt he will be upgrading toward the direction of the Onkyo anyway. By starting with the Onkyo that already has all the current features, a) he will not find it lacking and need to upgrade unless some new, advanced feature comes along that renders all our systems obsolete and b) I don't see the value of starting with a piece of equipment that is very likely to be replaced sooner rather than later. The Onkyo can very well last many, many years before that "must have" feature finally arrives. In the meantime, the OP will have the use of all the features the Onkyo does have over the cheaper receiver.

Sure, the Onkyo costs more than that combo but it also brings more to the table especially in terms of video performance for use with a PJ and it has a more than capable amp section to drive those speakers. Let's consider the use of just one feature the Onkyo has that the OP may not have considered - two HDMI outputs. Since he's using a PJ, let's say that he doesn't want to use the PJ for everyday TV watching to save the bulbs. With the 906, he can set up a LCD TV behind a retractable screen for everyday TV, using one HDMI output to the PJ and the other to the panel display. Just one more thing to consider possible in the future that the OP maybe hadn't considered today.

I would probably amend my spending allocation if thinking $10k, and put $2k into treatments since Im not the DIY type for this kind of thing. Taming the room will allow decent and/or tolerable SQ at higher volumes.

This whole thing is all about budget allocation. In 99% of cases, I wouldn't think to suggest the 905/906. However, after considering all the OP's requirements, from WAF (and the simplicity that demands) to the PJ to the size of the room to the budget, etc., this is what I've come up with. Please note, I'm not disputing the wisdom of your suggestions. I simply want to present the OP with another possibility based on my own experience. Ultimately, the OP will decide how best to allocate his own budget and will be better off for hearing a wide variety of opinions, experiences and options, IMO.

 

[jostenmeat]

I simply want to present the OP with another possibility based on my own experience. Ultimately, the OP will decide how best to allocate his own budget and will be better off for hearing a wide variety of opinions, experiences and options, IMO.

Cheers Dave, your statement is very true, and its the reason why people pose questions in the forums to begin with.

If VP does become important, he can always add it later. A DVDO Edge with Anchor Bay retails at $799. An 805 receiver with Ultra amp is had for $425-650, if we were keeping the power amp within the receiver. That combo is also less money.

Or, the Yammy + DVDO + Emo = less than $2k, and you have 3 separate components, which IMO avoids greater costs in future upgrades. Just yet another idea.

Then again, I suppose a consumer like the OP actually might prefer having it all in one box as you suggest.

 

[Davemcc]

Cheers Dave, your statement is very true, and its the reason why people pose questions in the forums to begin with.

If VP does become important, he can always add it later. A DVDO Edge with Anchor Bay retails at $799. An 805 receiver with Ultra amp is had for $425-650, if we were keeping the power amp within the receiver. That combo is also less money.

Or, the Yammy + DVDO + Emo = less than $2k, and you have 3 separate components, which IMO avoids greater costs in future upgrades. Just yet another idea.

Then again, I suppose a consumer like the OP actually might prefer having it all in one box as you suggest.

Wow, the DVDO stuff has really come down in price. I spent over $1K on the Algolith Flea. It really improved my video quality but since I started using the Integra, I don't need to use it anymore. That's one advantage to Onkyo's implementation of the Reon. I could have saved myself that expense had I known how involved I was going to get in this hobby and just started out with better equipment in the first place.

There are soooooo many options out there, it can be hard to say what's the right choice. I just take the info a member offers and try to put myself in their shoes, i.e. what would I do under those conditions. In the end, I just hope I helped rather than confused the issue.

 

[snmhanson]

Thanks for all of the replies and advice. Although I am not going to run out tommorow and start buying stuff I love to plan things out and get a head start on the process. My game plan going forward is to find some nice quality and versitile speakers first and then match a receiver to it. I have a 50" rear projection tv that I can use for the time being for video so I will look for the projector and screen last.

I am still debating on which speakers to consider but I think I will definately give my local retailer a shot and take a look at the Paradigm Studio 6 or Monitor 11 series. I will probably drop into Aperion sometime when I am in Portland as well to check out their speakers, although the Paradigms do look like a good value. I think I will scratch Axiom off my list. I am going to start out with two towers and maybe a center channel and then add a pair of surrounds a little later. After I finish the system up I will add another pair of surrounds to give me 7.1 if necessary. A traditional center channel speaker (versus another tower) is going to be necessary due to some constraints in the room design but I will make sure the speakers are all matched as closely as possible.

For a receiver, I really need something that is a single solution for audio and video and I don't want to worry about upgrading later. I'll take a look at the higher end Onkyos and Integras among the other receivers that I consider. I understand that you can get better performance and possibly a better value going with a seperate amp and outboard video switching but I need to keep this easy to use or deal with the wrath of my wife. So basically, I need to get the best performing receiver (audio and video) that my budget allows. In any case though, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Speakers first, then receiver.

Thanks again for all of the advice.

Matt

 

[jostenmeat]

You're very welcome Matt.

If you really need a horizontal center speaker, I suppose that means you have totally removed the possibility of an AT screen?

First off, I'd like to say I don't know everything. As in, not even close, this world of AV is too vast. But for the couple of years I've been really into this, having bought a ton and changing my system into system(s), etc, I honestly believe having three identical upright towers might be the greatest first step one could do for an HT audio setup. I don't get to enjoy one, but I think you should. "The All Important Front Soundstage" is really so important. Surround cues are normally quite subtle, and centered and intelligible dialogue is absolutely key.

Something I failed to hit before, but beware very low placement of center like I have. Within a couple of feet of floor is asking for intense midbass reflections that will make dialogue difficult to decipher. Its not that the dialogue's frequencies are quieter, its that the midbass boosts "mask" them. Mine sits on an acoustic panel now, which is of great help, but I still suffer significantly time to time, in terms of ideal audio. Do I love my HT? Yes, but I understand its compromises too... more so now then when I was setting up....

The second greatest step is significantly treating your room, IMO.

The horizontal mtm works decently when viewers are dead on. That's rarely the case, especially with a PJ setup. Note the other types of horiz center designs I mentioned earlier, and look at these Audioholics test results for such designs:

Vertical vs Horizontal Center Speaker Designs

As for ease of use with separates... Im not sure it has to be more difficult. As long as the pre/receiver you choose has 12v triggers that work in zone "A" (Onkyo only in zone B, too bad), then you buy a wire from Rat Shack for a couple of bucks, and voila. Turn on the receiver, amp turns on with it. Just wanted you to know. Otherwise, good to know you favor all-in-one...

Enjoy the hunt.

 

[Davemcc]

Speakers first, then receiver.

The first rule has been well learned. The rest will follow.

 

[snmhanson]

You're very welcome Matt.

If you really need a horizontal center speaker, I suppose that means you have totally removed the possibility of an AT screen?

I can't say I've 100% removed the possibility of another tower in the center. My problem is that I built an alcove for the screen and speakers and planned on wall mounting a fixed screen with the center speaker sitting just below it. I could move the screen forward to the front of the alcove and use a drop down screen with a center tower behind it but that defeats the whole purpose of the alcove. And more importantly, it would push the screen 2' closer to the seating area which could make it very tight and make viewing somewhat uncomfortable. As it stands, the far rear of the view area (head position) is going to be about 12-14' from the screen and I was planning on putting some sort of bean bags or kid sized couch for the kids in front of the primary seating. I would just be worried about cramming people too close to a 106" screen and viewers not being able to get the full effect. I would like to at least find a center channel though that is essentially a tower laid on it's side so it will match the side towers as close as possible. I know I will have to deal with less than perfection but I will do my best with it.

I know that it seems that I am cutting off my arm to spite my hand both in terms of the center channel speaker and the receiver areas of my setup but I need to weigh practicality and useability versus an optimal setup. That's why I am coming into this without the highest of high expectations but want to make the most of what I have to work with. If this was a dedicated theatre room with nothing else in it I would be approaching this much differently but I need to make it work with the rest of the room and with the wife.

Thanks once again for all of the advice and input.

Matt

BTW, I am not really against the idea of a seperate amp for audio. However, I do want quality video built into the receiver and it seems to me that most of the receivers with good video switching/upconversion are at the higher end of the receiver price range where I might as well shop for good sound as well. Not sure how clear that was but hopefully you catch my drift. In any case, I will worry about the receiver after I get the speakers.

 

[jostenmeat]

And more importantly, it would push the screen 2' closer to the seating area which could make it very tight and make viewing somewhat uncomfortable. As it stands, the far rear of the view area (head position) is going to be about 12-14' from the screen and I was planning on putting some sort of bean bags or kid sized couch for the kids in front of the primary seating. I would just be worried about cramming people too close to a 106" screen and viewers not being able to get the full effect. I would like to at least find a center channel though that is essentially a tower laid on it's side so it will match the side towers as close as possible. I know I will have to deal with less than perfection but I will do my best with it.

If seats are 14' away, and bean bags are 10' away, with 106" screen, kids in the bean bags have 42 deg viewing angle. This happens to be my preferred viewing angle BTW.

Then consider that with the Pana 3000, you can easily use a 2.40 screen. At this point, Id probably be thinking of even greater viewing angle. Of course you won't know for 100% sure until you try, but I will just say that there are plenty of folks who use a 1 to 1 screen width to viewing distance ratio with an anamorphic setup, or IOW, over a 50 deg viewing angle.

I know that it seems that I am cutting off my arm to spite my hand both in terms of the center channel speaker and the receiver areas of my setup but I need to weigh practicality and useability versus an optimal setup. That's why I am coming into this without the highest of high expectations but want to make the most of what I have to work with. If this was a dedicated theatre room with nothing else in it I would be approaching this much differently but I need to make it work with the rest of the room and with the wife.

I can't think of anything more practical or useful than intelligible dialogue.

Think of a friend with the typical HT audio setup. Note what front three speakers he uses, and their relative placement and configuration. Make a visit, and say you want to experiment. Sit at say 30-45 degrees from center speaker. Now, go between 5.1 and telling receiver center is not connected (phantom). Shoot, or just select stereo. Use both music and movies. Or use an RS meter like this unbelieving but finally convinced fellow. He said just a couple of weeks ago, in reply to my rants:

I've participated in the "horizontal center channel speaker lobing" debate a time or two. My impression is that it is extremely overblown. At the end of the day all that matters is our own individual perception of sound quality right? I mean we all can spend 10's of thousands or several hundred dollars on speakers, professionally calibrate or do nothing, treat our rooms or not, measure the hell out of everything, etc... and all that really matters is if our ears appreciate or notice the differences. I've experimented several times with the center channel speaker. It's quite easy, unplug all the other speakers, put in a cd or dvd, sit right in front of the center speaker about 6-10 feet away, then shift left or right about 6 feet. Sound worse, sound horrible, got a problem?? Try it with a vertical tower and try it with a horizontal center. I don't notice any degradation of SQ. If you do, upgrade. Build your own tv stand or add a riser to the one that you currently have that will allow a 12-15" bookshelf, it'd be an easy project. I could put a vertical speaker in the center (in my basement HT) and choose not to, at least for the time being. I see no need for it.

Then . . . just . . . five . . . days . . . later . . . he says:

After further review I'm going to change my position, there is a noticeable difference in SQ with a horizontal MTM center compared to a bookshelf in the center position when listening off axis.

I messed with it last weekend and I'm currently doing it right now in the basement again. First off, with the sound level meter, there is a significant drop in overall dB when a center is compared to a bookshelf off axis. Actually I tested 2 bookshelfs, 1 floorstander and 1 center and each speaker typically dropped about 1 to 1.5 dB the center was the only speaker that dropped 3-5 dB when off axis by 30 to 45 degrees, this was for about 6 tests with each speaker with a variety of material (took a fair bit of time). It not only showed up on the SLM but it was noticeable with the ears. After reading a bazillion articles and speaker reviews it's obvious, at least IMO, that the cause of this drop in dB is the common "suckout" in the frequency range right around and below the crossover point of the horizontal 2 way MTM center speaker (I don't have the setup to do the full FR plot but there's no doubt I'm experiencing the same thing that is in every horizontal MTM review).

At the end of the day....

I will be looking for a single PSB Image B25 for my center channel speaker. Sorry for taking the thread so off topic but I had to reply to this.

BTW, I am not really against the idea of a seperate amp for audio. However, I do want quality video built into the receiver and it seems to me that most of the receivers with good video switching/upconversion are at the higher end of the receiver price range where I might as well shop for good sound as well. Not sure how clear that was but hopefully you catch my drift. In any case, I will worry about the receiver after I get the speakers.

Yup, higher end indeed. Onkyo seems to be the best bang for buck with VP in mind, however it won't process anything with HDMI inputs AFAIK, but will with component video. If you take Denon's line for example, to get anything better than Faruodja, you will eat half your entire budget to obtain Realta in the 5308.

My vote is to forget the alcove. I'm sorry, but a dedicated PJ setup is way cooler than an alcove will ever be IMO, and might as well get discernable dialogue while you are at it, with even pans, reduced reflections, increased dispersion, perfectly matched, etc.

Can you imagine the strange impression of seeing the biggest and most beautiful pic you have ever seen in a home, but thinking, "Man, the dialogue is too quiet, I can barely hear . . . " ?

Heh, just my vote. The key here is to know what the compromises are before you choose to accept them. Its much better than not knowing, and not having a choice in the matter. Its easiest and cheapest to do it the first time around, for if you ever decided that you wanted clear dialogue at just 20 degrees off-axis (let alone the whole other host of benefits), well, you're spending a lot all over again. FWIW, cheers. BTW, I have been told that my woofers in my PSB C60 center are 180 degrees out of phase at 20 degrees. This is dependent on the space b/w woofers, and the x-over point in a 2 way design. Mftrs could reduce negative effects by lowering xover point, and putting the woofers closer together, but I have the extremely strong impression that off-axis performance is usually not high on the priority list for most center speakers ever made.

parting shot: if going horizontal, please review the types I listed, and the article I attached. Your responses do not make it clear to me if you understand the different types of horizontal speaker designs. Of course, even without a tower, the upright bookshelf is still a ton better than a horiz mtm, with the possible exception of power handling depending on specific models compared. If higher mounted bookshelf, I might recommend flipping it upside down so as to have the tweeter closer to the screen.

-jostenmeat

PS! Don't do a tower on its side! Just noticed that! You will still have lobing effects, AFAIK, but this time it won't even be balanced b/w two sides, and even more importantly are possible specific designs, wave guides, lenses(?), that prohibit any other mounting besides the vertical orientation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do an upright bookshelf instead, and again, NOT on its side. Upside down is fine if higher mounted. Or, again for the third time, use a better designed horizontal such as WTMW or coincidental.