New home - new HT room

Wayde Robson

Wayde Robson

Audioholics Anchorman
Just closed the deal on a new house with a dark basement rec room, perfect for a projector!

I'm new to projectors and after haunting this forum I found a nice price-range guide. (pasted below)

But I've got a question for you projector people. What's the difference between a 2K, 3K and 5+K projector? Basically what does all the extra money get you in terms of performance?

Or, to frame the question differently: What's going to suck about buying a sub $2K projector and not buying the $5K job?

Does anyone play video games (especially FPS) on a projector? Are there any latency or 'darkness' issues when using a projector for gaming?


"Let's make a list... How about a LONG list...

Some of the best between $2,000 & $3,000
Epson 6500UB
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epso...ma_6500_UB.htm

Panasonic AE3000U
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Panasonic-PT-AE3000.htm

Mitsubishi HC6500
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-HC6500U.htm

Sanyo PLV-Z3000
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sanyo-PLV-Z3000.htm

Mid-priced, mid quality - $1,000-$2,000
Espon 6100
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epso...inema_6100.htm

Sanyo Z700
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sanyo-PLV-Z700.htm

Mitsubishi HC5500
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-HC5500.htm

New price leaders: $999...
Optoma HD20
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-HD20.htm

Vivitek H1080FD
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Vivitek-H1080FD.htm

Here is the complete list of projectors from $1-$3,000 currently available. I wouldn't say any of these are lousy, but the ones I listed are what are likely to get a fair bit of attention, or have already. If I were to buy today, right now, I would get the Epson 6500UB.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...d&is=&sort=pop "
 
sawzalot

sawzalot

Audioholic Samurai
I'm not a tweetin twitter, so how about the good folks that have opinions and comments list them right here also, at good ole AH forums, as I too would love to read about said subject, Thanks sawz..:)
 
Bryce_H

Bryce_H

Senior Audioholic
In my opinion the differences between the projector price ranges has really narrowed over the last couple of years. Some things I have typically seen are additional features (like lens shift which actually physically moves the lens to compensate for off axis mounting) and brightness (which would not be as big a concern as it sounds like you have good light control). Most of the contrast ratios are blown out of proportion. I have played CoD 5 on my projector (Epson 550) from a PS3 and it has played fine.

I haven't followed the actual projector market closely so maybe someone else can provide better examples.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Well, there are many aspects to a front projector's picture quality and price does not always indicate the performance.

In general, you are looking for the exact same qualities in a front projector as you are with any flat panel or rear projection display. You want as deep a reproduction of true black as possible. You want good shadow detail and correct gamma. You want accurate colours and accurate colour decoding. You want a sharp, clear image, but you do not want to see pixels. You want good video processing. You want high contrast - both full on/off and ANSI. You want appropriate peak light output for the size of your screen and the darkness of your room.

Additionally, you might want the highest physical resolution (1080p for the consumer world ;) ). You might also want Frame Interpolation (smoothing) or you might want a 72 Hz/96 Hz/120 Hz mode that will allow you to play 1080p/24 content without any 3:2 pull-down judder. And, with a projector, you might want to be able to use an out-board anamorphic lens for 2.35:1 aspect ratio movies. If you want to use an out-board lens, you'll need the matching "vertical stretch" video processing.

Some other considerations are that you might want powered zoom, lens shift and focus. And then there are considerations like fan noise, throw distance, zoom range, lens shift range and lens offset.

In general, as you go up in price, you go up in performance and also get more features. Let's look at an example - let's compare the Panasonic AE3000U to the Sanyo Z700.

The Panasonic delivers a deeper reproduction of true black. It can also put out higher peak brightness. It has higher contrast (both full on/off and ANSI). The Panasonic also has powered zoom, lens shift and focus - the Sanyo in this case has all manual physical adjustments. The Panasonic also has a 96 Hz mode for 1080p/24 content and it can perform Frame Interpolation if you like the "smooth motion" look.

So you get quite a lot for the additional cost. If you go higher in price to something like one of the JVC D-ILA projectors, you get even better black level performance and even higher contrast.

I know how difficult it can be to choose a front projector! Many of us are in a spot where we would like to spend a certain amount, but if spending more means significantly better performance, then we might be willing to up the budget! If you are building a new theater, it's common to want to sort of build the theater around the projector that you intend to buy. In other words, you might select the placement of receptacles, furniture, etc. based upon the ideal position for your intended projector.

The best thing, in my experience, is to really try and think of the things that you cannot change. If you have a strict budget or have things about your theater room that you cannot change, those restrictions can help to narrow your choices.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I wanted to add that a truly great resource is projectorreviews.com and, in particular, Art's 1080p Comparison Report

Art does a fantastic job of grouping projectors together based on street price and comparing their performance to one another as well as to the projectors in the price classes above and below them.

The latest Comparison Report is for the models that came out in late 2008 and the beginning of 2009. We are now into the season where the newest 2009/2010 models are starting to come out - so the Comparison Report to which I've linked is quickly going out of date. But it is still a great resource to get a very good idea of what the extra cost of each price class gets you! And Art will surely have a new "2010 Comparison Report" once the bulk of the newest models have been released :)
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Just closed the deal on a new house with a dark basement rec room, perfect for a projector!
Congrats!

But I've got a question for you projector people. What's the difference between a 2K, 3K and 5+K projector? Basically what does all the extra money get you in terms of performance?
Performance, firstly. Features after that. However, some feature loaded units are less bang for buck, generally, IMO. (Think Epson 6500 vs 7500 for instance).

Not intending to sound sarcastic at all, but the difference between 2k 3k and 5+k is, well, the price. What I mean is that you can find deals, refurbs, bstocks, open box, used, if you are patient. Therefore, it's quite possible you can get a PJ at roughly 2-2.5k that is better than new units costing more. Patience and luck are factors, I do admit.

Or, to frame the question differently: What's going to suck about buying a sub $2K projector and not buying the $5K job?
ok, thinking in terms of brand new only for the moment, the first thing that obviously comes to mind is when something like this happens. "OMG, this is AMAZING, I LOVE this thing" . . . and a couple of months later, you ask yourself, "Since I love FP sooooo much, why on Earth didn't I get the better unit??".

Otherwise, everything that makes a good pic. Color accuracy, saturation, absolute blacks, black detail, native contrast, ansi contrast, pixel structure (or lack thereof), etc. Like 1st reflection said, it's the same stuff as with regular tv's.

Does anyone play video games (especially FPS) on a projector? Are there any latency or 'darkness' issues when using a projector for gaming?
I don't sorry. However, I've read an interesting thread or two about CIH using the zoom method. I don't think I'm sold, but what I do like is even more extreme, and that is using the zoom method for whatever darn size + AR I want at any time, but with a masking system. Granted, such a masking system is a lot of money. Which is why I don't do it.

However, if you got a scope/2.35 screen, and you don't mind taking 2-5 min to adjust zoom, focus, and lens shift, you can have your gaming be a smaller size than with widescreen AR movies. Now, sometimes with a beautiful 16:9 pic, you might miss going bigger with the same AR screen, and I know I would (hence my attraction to masking), but it's something to think about, and it wouldn't cost you a cent more.

What you should do regardless is just get the PJ first, fire it at the wall with both movies and gaming, and you'll see clearly how you feel. From there you can even decide if my proposal is even worth the hassle of adjusting for CIH. People's feelings on doing this vary to extreme extents. From "what a royal PIA", to "wow it's so stupidly easy, what's all the complaining about".

While the last few paragraphs are topically examining a very specific solution, it should still serve as an example that setup cannot be underestimated, and is at least as important as the choice of PJ itself. After all, a 3k PJ in an excellent room still outperforms a 10k unit in a bad room. (And I feel the same way about speakers too).

People have investigated creating macros to do all the shift/focus/zoom, but it doesn't work reliably, for reasons ranging from delay before motors ramp up, or that the increments of movement are not consistent enough.

Counter-intuitively, manual adjustments could be argued as easier. Some PJs require delving into the menu to do such adjustments. I'm pretty certain I could do manual shift/zoom/focus in a minute flat. YMMV.

If I were to buy today, right now, I would get the Epson 6500UB.
I wouldn't. The 8500 is right around the corner. At which point, the only reason is if the 6500 is significantly cheaper. However, believe it or not, when the 6500 came out to supercede the 1080 UB, it did so at a lower price. ;)

JVC for the best PQ, filmic presentation, black levels + detail, native contrast, you name it. They make for the best PQ at anything less than $40,000 price tags.

Cons: bit louder than some other units. Not as bright as the competition, most particularly in brightest mode, but because the PQ is naturally very good, it's still quite competitive in best/calibrated mode. And particularly for you, some people complain about how motion looks.

The RS20, probably streeting a bit above 5k comes with CMS (color mgmt system). Therefore, you should get the best color accuracy with this unit compared to anything anywhere near its price.

Less that, RS10. Less contrast, less black performance, but brighter, way less expensive. The biggest factor IMO is the lack of CMS. (Note that to add CMS will cost you $4,500 as an outboard device just by itself). My guess is a hair over 3.5k.

Of course, the rs15 & rs25 are also right around the corner.

Otherwise, Epson is an excellent choice at a lower price point. You give up the contrast abilities, black detail, but you get a lot more brightness.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I have the philosophy of meeting your needs with the best deal possible. I'd advocate the HD20 paired with a Carada Brilliant white screen.

I suggest you get the screen after you decide which size you like.


You'd only spend 1k, Optoma bulbs are among the lowest costs.

It would save the rest for sound treatment, seating and lighting. I think we all have preferences mine tends toward the more for less attitude. Vivitek or however it's spelt is tough to find bulbs on for some of their earlier models at least. Or for me they were when I was helping someone else try to find one.

Of course if money isn't a huge deal then the JVC is the way to go.

But if it's between treating the room and not with a different projector then go for the lower price IMO.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Just closed the deal on a new house with a dark basement rec room, perfect for a projector!

I'm new to projectors and after haunting this forum I found a nice price-range guide. (pasted below)

But I've got a question for you projector people. What's the difference between a 2K, 3K and 5+K projector? Basically what does all the extra money get you in terms of performance?

Or, to frame the question differently: What's going to suck about buying a sub $2K projector and not buying the $5K job?

Does anyone play video games (especially FPS) on a projector? Are there any latency or 'darkness' issues when using a projector for gaming?


"Let's make a list... How about a LONG list...

Some of the best between $2,000 & $3,000
Epson 6500UB
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epso...ma_6500_UB.htm

Panasonic AE3000U
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Panasonic-PT-AE3000.htm

Mitsubishi HC6500
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-HC6500U.htm

Sanyo PLV-Z3000
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sanyo-PLV-Z3000.htm

Mid-priced, mid quality - $1,000-$2,000
Espon 6100
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epso...inema_6100.htm

Sanyo Z700
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sanyo-PLV-Z700.htm

Mitsubishi HC5500
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Mitsubishi-HC5500.htm

New price leaders: $999...
Optoma HD20
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-HD20.htm

Vivitek H1080FD
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Vivitek-H1080FD.htm

Here is the complete list of projectors from $1-$3,000 currently available. I wouldn't say any of these are lousy, but the ones I listed are what are likely to get a fair bit of attention, or have already. If I were to buy today, right now, I would get the Epson 6500UB.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...d&is=&sort=pop "
I'm a gamer and have had no latency issues with my DLP projector. I prefer them for gaming, but the newer LCDs may be just fine.
 
Wayde Robson

Wayde Robson

Audioholics Anchorman
Awesome replies guys, thanks a lot. It sounds like a lot of common sense stuff interpreted through the projector world. I have time so I am going to do a lot of reading.

It sounds like a high end JVC is going to be way out of my price range, and I'm all about waiting and looking for deals. I'll be haunting your threads for tips on specific model numbers of upcoming PJs you seem happy with too.

I have a friend who had a Yamaha, it was very nice, all the menus were in Japanese with no English options, he got a great deal on it and that's basically why I guess. It was a great experience because I have gone to "office" gaming sessions using older PJs and the image quality for gaming purposes really sucked. This friend's Yamaha was amazing by comparison, that's the kind of experience I'd like to recapture. He had it up to 100" screen and I could see every detail with no murkiness in the corners etc.

Thanks and keep replies coming if you have anything to add. I'll be reading!
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
(In response to 6500UB comment)... I wouldn't. The 8500 is right around the corner. At which point, the only reason is if the 6500 is significantly cheaper. However, believe it or not, when the 6500 came out to supercede the 1080 UB, it did so at a lower price. ;)
Josten - the original poster was quoting something I wrote several weeks ago prior to the CEDIA announcements of the 8500UB in a thread specifically about sub $3,000 projectors. Keeping in mind, my environment requires flexibility beyond a dedicated theater, I think the Epson may still prove to be top shelf this year.

Original poster - I think you really have had the basics covered as to the major differences. I wanted to cover a bit of what the technology differences are...

A big one is the LCD and DLP technologies themselves.

A cheaper LCD will have organic LCD panels which may deteriorate faster than inorganic LCD panels. This could cut several years off the life of the product, or more if you don't keep the airflow around the projector high and clean the filter regularly.

For cheap DLP, you get the older DarkChip technologies instead of the newere, better DLP DMDs. This will bring contrast and shadow detail down.

What else? Lens elements tend to be cheaper, sometimes having plastic parts in them as the price goes down.

For DLP, you typically lose zoom range and lens shift - in fact, it is almost unheard of on the cheapest DLP models even though the cheapest LCD models maintain lens shift and good zoom as standard features.

Finally, your video processing inside the projector tends to be much lower quality on cheaper models. Forget 120hz processing or frame interpolation! Just the standard duty of converting component 1080i to 1080p or upconversion of 480i/p material to the projector's native resolution will be significantly compromised by cheaper projectors. A good Reon chip in a better projector can be worth the price of the projector alone. The added features which go along with it add up to an image that easily rivals what you are going to find in 99% of movie theaters in the world.

Good luck, and congratulations!
 
strube

strube

Audioholic Field Marshall
I myself will be very interested to see how the 8500UB performs.

Today I saw the box for the 8500UB that had a THX Certification Pending sticker on it. I believe to date and under $10k, THX certification is enjoyed only by the JVC. I am curious to see if it will give the JVCs a run for their money, and I think that it should simply due to the fact that it is substantially less money...
 
strube

strube

Audioholic Field Marshall
Does anyone play video games (especially FPS) on a projector? Are there any latency or 'darkness' issues when using a projector for gaming?
I play all my Xbox 360 games on my current projector (Halo 3, COD, GTAIV, Midnight Club LA, etc), and have on several projectors, both DLP and LCD. I never noticed any latency issues (yes, I play Rock Band too :rolleyes:) in any of them. The only two problems I have ever had were when I was using the Optoma H77 DLP with the Xbox for an older racing game when it...crapped the bed...for the second time and had to be sent in for warranty again, and the other was when frame interpolation was active on the Panasonic PT-AE3000U, the gameplay would be jittery, and once I turned it off everything worked great. This setting on the Panny was a factory one, and I had just set up the PJ. For the record, I think FI is useless and makes everything look bad, so I always turn it off.

The JVC RS2 looks the best of any PJ I have used or set up for others thus far, but as I have complained of elsewhere, it is the loudest of them all (high altitude fan speed is definitely a requirement for my elevation), which detracts from its awesome picture quite a bit for me. During quiet movies, dramas and the like, I find myself wishing for that wonderfully silent Panasonic PT-AE3000U over my head again, instead of the JVC...

I'm a gamer and have had no latency issues with my DLP projector. I prefer them for gaming, but the newer LCDs may be just fine.
I know you are an, excuse the term...fanboy...of DLP projectors, as I suppose I would be of LCD/LCoS because of the horrible failure rate plus intolerable rainbow effects of DLP I have experienced, but there are absolutely no problems with any LCD projectors I have used for gaming when set up properly.
 
A

AndrewLyles

Audioholic
From when I did my research, the two biggest factors that price affected were color accuracy (or more specifically the ability to accurately dial in accurate colors), and native contrast ratios.

As far as FPS goes, I installed my JVC RS20 in January and have over 1400 hours on it. I haven't had any problems playing any of the typical console games out there, COD4, WaW, Halo 3, ODST, Arkum Asylum, etc. It did take a couple days to adjust to the sheer size of the screen though. :D
 
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