new 2009 denon receiver reviews

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santarosa

Audiophyte
Hi Audioholics, I'm New To The Posting Part Of These Forums. I Am Curious As To Why I Can't Seem To Find A Single Test And Or Actual ' Hands On' Review Of The New Denon Line Of Av Receivers. I Have Looked At Several Websites But The Most I Have Seen Is An Overview Of The Lineup. My 3803 Died And I Am Looking For Something More Current. Any Suggestions Or Advice Would Be Greatly Appreciated.
 

av ed

Audiophyte
They look pretty nice. I have always loved the sound quality of Denon. The only review I have seen is of the AVR-4310 at techradar. It replaces the 3808. The review was very positive, especially concerning the overall sound quality. I will be purchasing a 4810 when it gets released.
 
strube

strube

Audioholic Field Marshall
Hi Audioholics, I'm New To The Posting Part Of These Forums. I Am Curious As To Why I Can't Seem To Find A Single Test And Or Actual ' Hands On' Review Of The New Denon Line Of Av Receivers. I Have Looked At Several Websites But The Most I Have Seen Is An Overview Of The Lineup. My 3803 Died And I Am Looking For Something More Current. Any Suggestions Or Advice Would Be Greatly Appreciated.
Welcome to the forum!

I don't think you are seeing many reviews because they are only an incremental upgrade from last years models, so I am not sure Denon was really sending out review units like crazy for that reason. Another reason may be that they are trying to save money, which is why they didn't have a booth at CEDIA this year. They are all still very new as well, so we may see some more reviews pop up before Christmas, especially now that CEDIA is wrapped up.

Just as example, my 3808 was replaced by the 4310, and really the only difference beyond a little more connectivity is the video processing unit has been upgraded and they added the silly (IMO) height and width channel PLIIz capabilities. You can find info on this PLIIz stuff in reviews for other units from Onkyo and the differences between the Denon and the Onkyos regarding this feature are...well there aren't any. As for the video processor, it is in the Oppo BD-83 and Toshiba HD DVD players, so reviews regarding their upscalers should suffice.

After saying all of that, my dad upgraded from the 3803 to the 3808 and was completely happy with it. He sold his house and the 3808 had to be part of that deal, so he is buying mine, and I am looking for a replacement. I am sure if you were happy with your 3803, you would be happy with the 4310, which is just many generations of updates from your 3803.

The upcoming 4810 is nice too, but I have decided after details emerged about it, that it does not add a lot of extra value for $1k (just as it was for the 3808 vs the 4308), and that many people, myself included, would be better off saving that $1k and going with the 4310, unless you absolutely can't live without HD Radio and Wi-Fi built in. It has a few other neat features over the 4310, but I don't think it is worth it...
 
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rawj7

Audiophyte
I was set on the Denon 4310CI, Love the features and you can get it now almost everywhere for 1399, Now you can also get the Pioneer SC-27 for 1399. I currently have a Denon 3806 but the sub output wont work and it no longer will pass HDMI Video, I'v had it for 3 years. I love the sound except Even when the sub out did work I always thought it lacking just a bit in low end but appriesiated the clarrity and it wasent overly sharp. I love all the new features in the new one, But I hear so many good things about the SC-27, i Always wanted a THX reciever as well. I live in an area where nobody sells either of thease units so I cant audition them and Also like you Guys cant find any Reviews of thease units, I was hopeing your valued opinions. I Mainly Just want the best sounding for SCI-FI Hometheater, and Classical music.
Rob
 
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Phil Indeblanc

Enthusiast
I listened to 3 Denons. 1 last years model, and 2 current, including 1 high end model.

According to my ears...I wouln't bother....
I have them sitting on the living room floor next to the Pioneer Elite vsx23txh, and the Yamaha rxv1065. It sounds like tin after you listen to the other 3 receivers. I also listened to the marantz 8002, and that was the best sound in the $700 to $1200 price range of receivers. (the Denon was $2000, yet short of the $700 Yam or Elite). The Elite was nice but direct 2 channel kept the sub active, which is fine, but the only reason it sounded a bit more full compared to the Yam. The yam, had very clear seperation. The Elite, full well rounded.

I am not sure why the sales rep kept turning me away from the YAM and pushing the Elite and Denon, but The yam had the best seperations and handled the highs very neutrally. Listened to some Gerry Mulligan, Krall, Buena Vista, Morcheeba, Massive Attack, Police, DepMode, and tested the same sound bites on the differrnt units. we tried our best and fastest switch over on the back between them to keep it fresh in our heads.

I tested these in my home with 3 different sets of very nice sounding speakers, and they had some toss ups, but I was impressed by the Elite(I had low expectations), and the yam. 8002 was just super. but for a price and some features. So i have to evaluate how important that extra sound is....I have not made up my mind.

I only need 2 or so HDMI's, I would love a PC connection, and th Elite has that, but the Yam1065 has the USB, but no Windows logo(Guess it is only iPod). The 8002 has neither. Zone2 on all, which is nice

I guess you wont know until you try for yourself.
 
strube

strube

Audioholic Field Marshall
I listened to 3 Denons. 1 last years model, and 2 current, including 1 high end model.

According to my ears...I wouln't bother....
I have them sitting on the living room floor next to the Pioneer Elite vsx23txh, and the Yamaha rxv1065. It sounds like tin after you listen to the other 3 receivers. I also listened to the marantz 8002, and that was the best sound in the $700 to $1200 price range of receivers. (the Denon was $2000, yet short of the $700 Yam or Elite). The Elite was nice but direct 2 channel kept the sub active, which is fine, but the only reason it sounded a bit more full compared to the Yam. The yam, had very clear seperation. The Elite, full well rounded.

I am not sure why the sales rep kept turning me away from the YAM and pushing the Elite and Denon, but The yam had the best seperations and handled the highs very neutrally. Listened to some Gerry Mulligan, Krall, Buena Vista, Morcheeba, Massive Attack, Police, DepMode, and tested the same sound bites on the differrnt units. we tried our best and fastest switch over on the back between them to keep it fresh in our heads.

I tested these in my home with 3 different sets of very nice sounding speakers, and they had some toss ups, but I was impressed by the Elite(I had low expectations), and the yam. 8002 was just super. but for a price and some features. So i have to evaluate how important that extra sound is....I have not made up my mind.

I only need 2 or so HDMI's, I would love a PC connection, and th Elite has that, but the Yam1065 has the USB, but no Windows logo(Guess it is only iPod). The 8002 has neither. Zone2 on all, which is nice

I guess you wont know until you try for yourself.
Sorry, but I don't buy it. Comparable receivers (which these are, I am guessing, though you didn't say exactly which Denons you are referring to) will all sound the same if you shut off all EQ and level match them. You can describe different speakers the way you are, but not a set of different receivers in pure direct (or similar) mode, or with all EQ and DRC off. They should all sound pretty much the same. The only way I would believe what you are saying is if you were talking about some low end Denons vs. the midrange Yamaha and Pioneer, such that the Denons were underpowering the speakers, but you said the Denon was 2k, so I am guessing you are talking about the 4310.

Whatever you were hearing is either due to some EQ that is on on the Denons and not on the others, a lack of level matching, or something else entirely. Consider having someone help you with a blind test once you level match them and confirm that you are in some sort of "direct" mode on each unit that will remove all messing with the signal, or at least make sure there is no EQ or DRC coloring your evaluation...
 
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Phil Indeblanc

Enthusiast
"Buy" what you want, but if you cannot hear the difference in how a signal is amplified then output to speakers, then I don't think you have very good hearing. Please don't take this in a negative way, but seriously, you either are not a very good listener/tester, or its not that important to you. The Denon is a dead and hallow. It didn't sound bad, but had minimal presence.

Of course I used direct mode, and I mention that the Pioneer still used sub in 2ch stereo mode, which I comped for. the Denon that was $2k is not with me any longer, but the other 2 actually the 2310, that is more comparable to these others are still next to me, (AVR-2310ci, 1709
) and about to go back today or tomorrow.

I understand anyone who makes a purchase of a particular brand will want to "feel good" about it, and it could be that your model is different than the 3 I tested in neutral settings. But don't kid yourself that there is no sound difference.

If I was to rate these including the Marantz 8002, and that being my 100% receiver, I would place the Elite at about 86%, the Yam at about 87%(these were close but and I liked the seperation of the Yam, where the Elite had a bit more fullness, but with degrading seperation, which to me is more important. The Denon I didn't compare between them, as I didnt see a point as they ruled out..but to give a number, maybe 75-78%. (higher rating for the upper model that headed against the 8002).
 
strube

strube

Audioholic Field Marshall
"Buy" what you want, but if you cannot hear the difference in how a signal is amplified then output to speakers, then I don't think you have very good hearing. Please don't take this in a negative way, but seriously, you either are not a very good listener/tester, or its not that important to you. The Denon is a dead and hallow. It didn't sound bad, but had minimal presence.

Of course I used direct mode, and I mention that the Pioneer still used sub in 2ch stereo mode, which I comped for. the Denon that was $2k is not with me any longer, but the other 2 actually the 2310, that is more comparable to these others are still next to me, (AVR-2310ci, 1709
) and about to go back today or tomorrow.

I understand anyone who makes a purchase of a particular brand will want to "feel good" about it, and it could be that your model is different than the 3 I tested in neutral settings. But don't kid yourself that there is no sound difference.

If I was to rate these including the Marantz 8002, and that being my 100% receiver, I would place the Elite at about 86%, the Yam at about 87%(these were close but and I liked the seperation of the Yam, where the Elite had a bit more fullness, but with degrading seperation, which to me is more important. The Denon I didn't compare between them, as I didnt see a point as they ruled out..but to give a number, maybe 75-78%. (higher rating for the upper model that headed against the 8002).
I would call my hearing abilities far from inferior, as you are implying. There was absolutely zero difference in sound between my old Rotel RSX-1065, which many would consider a cut above the Denon products, and my Denon AVR-3808CI. I and three friends performed a true, exhaustive blind test with the two, and there was no difference. I am not just some Denon fanboy that decided do defend my AVR - in fact, quite the opposite. I bought it based on Denon's quality and reputation, but I could have just as easily purchased a Pioneer or Yamaha for the same reasons.

I just got to your post first, but I guarantee that plenty of others will tell you the same thing. There are members here that have extensively used McIntosh amplification products and are now using Yamaha Pro Audio amplifiers. There is no difference. Did you do a true blind test, or did you know which unit you were listening to each time?
 
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Phil Indeblanc

Enthusiast
I would call my hearing abilities far from inferior, as you are implying. There was absolutely zero difference in sound between my old Rotel RSX-1065, which many would consider a cut above the Denon products, and my Denon AVR-3808CI. I and three friends performed a true, exhaustive blind test with the two, and there was no difference. I am not just some Denon fanboy that decided do defend my AVR - in fact, quite the opposite. I bought it based on Denon's quality and reputation, but I could have just as easily purchased a Pioneer or Yamaha for the same reasons.

I just got to your post first, but I guarantee that plenty of others will tell you the same thing. There are members here that have extensively used McIntosh amplification products and are now using Yamaha Pro Audio amplifiers. There is no difference. Did you do a true blind test, or did you know which unit you were listening to each time?
I have my dad switch them out, and I wasn't guessing which is which. I had no favorite before hand, in fact my dad respects the old school denon amps. I just listened as he switched out to the same sound bite areas a few times. and then he listened while I switched out.

Maybe you can help me test them some way otherwise, as I am not an expert, but my dad is a very particular about sound, and I get a bit of that from him I guess, and we both noticed the Denon to be "hallow".

I didn't directly say your hearing is bad,..it was one of the options to not listening, or not caring enough tohear the difference ;-P
 
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Phil Indeblanc

Enthusiast
I guarantee that plenty of others will tell you the same thing. There are members here that have extensively used McIntosh amplification products and are now using Yamaha Pro Audio amplifiers. There is no difference. Did you do a true blind test, or did you know which unit you were listening to each time?
There may be plenty that cant tell the differnce, or are at battle like a MAC or PC, or some who can tell the differecne of say a 22mp camera to a 22 mp mideium format camera...Im not interested in hearing dentists praise their Nikons, or Leica's, as others praise their Rolex watches as the best. I am looking to learn from engineers that have experience in listening to subtlties.

So, I also wonder if I will here from experts that agree with me? Maybe understand what differentiates this loss of explanation for differences between sound sources, or lack there of?
 
cjsiv

cjsiv

Junior Audioholic
I'm gonna chime in with my 2 cents. I am not a true audiophile. I do not like listening to 2 channel stereo. It drives me crazy. Some could care less about surround sound and decoding. To each his own....I feel like 2 channel is 20 years ago. After playing in a band and different stringed instruments for the past 20 years, 5.1 or 7.1 creates a more "live" sound to my ears. 2.0 or 2.1 has too small of a sound stage for me. Like I said....to each his own. I had a "low end" yamaha 663 in comparison to a 1065, but still a nice sounding receiver. Replaced it with a "low end" denon 1910. Both sound like crap to me in 2 channel or direct mode. The denon after running audyssey with my favorite Dolby Digital mixed concert dvds absolutely killed the yamaha. To write off the denon brand based purely off of 2 channel direct stereo modes is a sin in my book.
 
strube

strube

Audioholic Field Marshall
There may be plenty that cant tell the differnce, or are at battle like a MAC or PC, or some who can tell the differecne of say a 22mp camera to a 22 mp mideium format camera...Im not interested in hearing dentists praise their Nikons, or Leica's, as others praise their Rolex watches as the best. I am looking to learn from engineers that have experience in listening to subtlties.

So, I also wonder if I will here from experts that agree with me? Maybe understand what differentiates this loss of explanation for differences between sound sources, or lack there of?
Well I am not a "listening engineer," as there is no such engineer, but I am an appreciator of fine music and fine audio components. More importantly though, I have two bachelors degrees, one of which is in electrical engineering. Regardless of my hearing or listening abilities, I think I am qualified to pass judgment on certain things because I possess very technical, scientific knowledge of passive and active electrical components (capacitors, resistors, inductors, transformers, diodes, transistors, etc.), power supplies, digital signal processing, frequency response, noise rejection (SNR), harmonic distortion, and electronics design, such as exactly how A/B amplifiers are actually designed, down to how the silicon (or gallium arsenide, or germanium, or the few other semiconductor materials) molecules are arranged and how the electrons behave to allow the functionality of transistors.

I have also researched on my own and during my education how some of these things are tested, and I know how, for the most part, commercial AVRs are tested to produce the spec sheet that you will read when shopping for a receiver.

The point is, the specifications given for each receiver really do describe how they will perform, unless the tests are falsified. There is very little subjectivity in their performance. I will grant that I haven't taken apart any newer AVRs to inspect the power supplies, and the quality of this can have an affect on whether it performs to specifications, but I highly doubt that Denon would use an inferior PS while the others you discussed use a satisfactory one, because we would be hearing about massive failure rates of said Denon by now, which is actually a slightly updated version of a unit they have been making for a long, long time.

I also wouldn't be surprised to find tons of the same electrical components in McIntosh, Denon, and Marantz products. Despite being separate brands and not like comparing a Ford Escape to a Mercury Mariner, they are still owned by the same company, D & M holdings, and I am certain that some components and engineering are shared across these companies.

If you are going to test them again, I would say that comparing the 1709 to the others is not a fair comparison, as it is not in the same class as the Yammie and the Pioneer, and IMO, it isn't really fair to compare the Marantz to the other ones as it is quite a bit more powerful. First level match them, not by setting the volume on them and making sure they are close, but using an SPL meter to set them all to the same general dB range, at a comfortable listening level. Rather than worrying about switching them really fast, sit somewhere you can't see the three "test subjects" and have a friend randomly connect one. Then just listen to a song you know very well as a reference all the way through and take some notes on how you perceive it to sound, then have someone randomly switch it and note to themselves which one is currently selected. I would do two iterations of this in total random order (i.e. tell your assistant that it is even okay to use the same unit twice in a row) for a total of six tests, and then see what your notes say. After the test if you review notes and which notes correspond to which receiver (which your assistant has written down in secrecy during the test), then you can be happy with the thoroughness of your research, and select the receiver. I would not be surprised at all if you perform the test in this manner that you cannot discern a significant difference between the three.

Finally, this is for your benefit, not mine. Regardless of what you discover, it is not going to matter to me whether you were "right" and I was "wrong," or vice versa. Just please don't come back on here and telling me how bad my hearing or listening is, even if you try to do so in a veiled or underhanded manner, because I know I hear and listen well, and can, in fact, hear vast differences in different speakers, and describe in a similar manner, why they are or are not acceptable to my ears. I am just trying to assist you in using the most scientific approach to selecting a receiver. Good luck! :)
 
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