Need suggestions - Sub w/EQ packages.

[KEW]

I am trying to help a friend who is looking for a sub for music. He has Paradigm S-8's and a HSU VTF3. The problem is because of WAF, he is very limited on sub placement. He realizes that his sub is not properly tuned and is looking for a decent solution without having to do the Radioshack meter/Behringer DCX approach.
Don't some of the higher end subs by Velodyne or JL Audio have auto EQ (or at least a "cookbook" manual process with built-in EQ) feature?
Do any of these systems work without the time delay issues from digital EQ? If not, what is the easiest way for him to get the ability to have the proper delay on his mains?

Thanks.

 

[oppman99]

The JL subs don't really have an eq. They can correct for the largest room peak, but that's all. The only sub eq I have experience with is the Velodyne SMS-1. I haven't really played around with it too much. I just ran the auto correction and it definately helps. I'm planning on having a guy over with some more sophisticated equipment to take proper measurements and really get it dialed in.

 

[KEW]

The only sub eq I have experience with is the Velodyne SMS-1.

Am I correct in believing that the SMS-1 introduces a time delay?
Does it have a provision to delay the mains as well?

 

[ZeGhostbear]

Before Audyssey XT32 was announced, I was eyeing the SVS AS-EQ1. Just another option for your friend.

 

[Warpdrv]

Am I correct in believing that the SMS-1 introduces a time delay?
Does it have a provision to delay the mains as well?

The SMS-1 has full incremental phase setting... There should be a setting in the receiver or preamp to adjust distance/delay which is the same thing. Then adjust the phase on the sub - the SMS is very good to monitor adjustments on the fly right on your TV.

You can see the adjustments avail in the pictures in this guide, which is the most comprehensive I have found.
http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf

Oppoman - you should read this and make the adjustments manually, it will work much better then the auto setup..... Its really not that difficult - especially after reading that guide...

 

[ParadigmDawg]

You can see the adjustments avail in the pictures in this guide, which is the most comprehensive I have found.
http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf

Oppoman - you should read this and make the adjustments manually, it will work much better then the auto setup..... Its really not that difficult - especially after reading that guide...

I stuck a copy of that in the box when I sold him the SMS. YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER...

 

[oppman99]

I know, I know. I haven't been using the HT much lately because of the music system upgrades and helping my brother build his house. I will get to the manual adjustments, I promise. I want to do the whole system at once and be done with it, so I have to get a hold of the guy I know with all the fancy measuring gear because I want to do it right the first time.

 

[GranteedEV]

If his receiver etc has an auto-calibrator like audessey, shouldn't it factor in the delay anyways by faking sub distance to be a lot farther away?

 

[KEW]

His pre-amp is Parasound Halo JC-2. I don't believe it will delay the mains to compensate for DAC EQ delays of the subs (as I believe are required by the SVS-EQ1 or the SMS-1).

 

[Warpdrv]

Oh - ok you didn't mention the Parasound equipment in the first post...

Phase and time delay are two different things.

I would suggest then that the Sub be located on the same plane / wall as the speakers are to keep the distance the same, and phase on the sub should be set at 0....
That would be the easiest way...

How exactly is he planning on hooking up the sub to that piece...?
It is a full range 2 channel processor...

 

[KEW]

Oh - ok you didn't mention the Parasound equipment in the first post...

Phase and time delay are two different things.

I would suggest then that the Sub be located on the same plane / wall as the speakers are to keep the distance the same, and phase on the sub should be set at 0....
That would be the easiest way...

How exactly is he planning on hooking up the sub to that piece...?
It is a full range 2 channel processor...

Could you blow that up a little? I can't quite see all of the way into the bottom of the RCA terminals!
Sorry about omitting that little detail.
Right now, I expect he uses a Y-splitter or the high level input/output on his Hsu.
I was hoping either:
1) someone made a sub with a built-in EQ setup and full range outputs to feed to the amp/mains. Or
2) Someone made a sub with analog PEQ and include a reasonably simple tuning kit. Kind of like an advanced version of Mordaunt Short's ARC:

ARC (Active Room Control)
Because every room is different, we have developed a proprietary room matching system to deliver the very best low frequency performance. Quickly tune-out unwanted effects using the supplied Sound Pressure level (SPL) meter and set-up CD. ... Use the proprietary Adjustable Notch Filter in conjunction with the Genie SPL meter to tune out unwanted room effects.

I know that the SVS EQ-1 doesn't allow for a delay to the mains, but I was hoping one of the others might so a HT receiver is not required. Seems like there would be a market for a device like the SMS-1, but for people with analog systems (like the Emotive USP-1).

I believe this is an analog device and would do the job (as long as two bands is enough), but as far as I can tell, it is not "kitted" with a CD and instructions to make set-up easy.
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?t=1&products_id=657

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

I am trying to help a friend who is looking for a sub for music. He has Paradigm S-8's and a HSU VTF3. The problem is because of WAF, he is very limited on sub placement. He realizes that his sub is not properly tuned and is looking for a decent solution without having to do the Radioshack meter/Behringer DCX approach.
Don't some of the higher end subs by Velodyne or JL Audio have auto EQ (or at least a "cookbook" manual process with built-in EQ) feature?

Hard to tell from your post if your friend is looking for an outboard method to optimize his current subs, of just wants to replace them with something that would be an all-in-one solution – i.e. sub with/built-in tuning.

Do any of these systems work without the time delay issues from digital EQ? If not, what is the easiest way for him to get the ability to have the proper delay on his mains?

It’s impossible for a SUBWOOFER processor to delay the main speakers. Since your buddy has a preamp w/ separate amp, it would be a simple matter to add a couple of Yamaha YDP2006 digital parametric equalizers, one for the mains and one for the sub. That way both would have EQ, HP/LP filtering, and delays as needed. But the set up would have to be manual.

2) Someone made a sub with analog PEQ and include a reasonably simple tuning kit. Kind of like an advanced version of Mordaunt Short's ARC:

Looks like you answered your own question for a one-box solution. What’s wrong with that one?

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[KEW]

Hard to tell from your post if your friend is looking for an outboard method to optimize his current subs, of just wants to replace them with something that would be an all-in-one solution – i.e. sub with/built-in tuning.

He is looking for a simple but effective way to properly EQ a sub for room effects. Whether or not it is built into the sub (which was my first inclination) isn't critical.

Looks like you answered your own question for a one-box solution. What’s wrong with that one?

The ARC system I found is from the MORDAUNT SHORT Ms409w Genie 10" Powered Subwoofer W/200 Watt amp. I think it only offers one notch filter and there is not too much info on how good of a sub this is (I think Genie is associated with their lifestyle series). The more upscale Mordaunt Short subs I have checked out do not have the ARC system.

Thanks,
Kurt

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

He is looking for a simple but effective way to properly EQ a sub for room effects. Whether or not it is built into the sub (which was my first inclination) isn't critical.

In that case, the best bet is to use something like Room EQ Wizard program’s RTA feature and a parametric EQ. The RTA would show changes the EQ was making to response in real time.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[KEW]

I was looking at the new SVS subs and I believe the electronics in their new amp does exactly what I was proposing!

Here is a clip from the owner's manual:

The input signal(s) can have a High Pass filter applied which affects the signal that appears on the STA-800D/STA-1000D’s outputs. The input signal can also have a Delay applied independent of the High Pass filter which can be used to add delay to the Left and Right main speakers to accommodate preamps that have no digital capability. See the next section that discusses the Integrated Function Controller for a more detailed discussion on using the High Pass filter and Delay functions.

It also includes a high pass filter for the mains and a 2 band PEQ for the subs, so this may be the ticket!

 

[jostenmeat]

I was looking at the new SVS subs and I believe the electronics in their new amp does exactly what I was proposing!

Here is a clip from the owner's manual:



It also includes a high pass filter for the mains and a 2 band PEQ for the subs, so this may be the ticket!

This is what I found after your post KEW, nice. Not continuously variable, but a fair amount of choices for built-in bass mgmt on a consumer sub:

Volume: 0 to -100 dB (1dB increment)

High Pass Filter:
Frequency select : 31/40/50/63/80/100/125Hz
Slope select : Disable/-12dB/-24dB

High Pass Delay: 0 to 10 ms in 1ms increments

Low Pass Filter:
Frequency select: 31/40/50/63/80/100/125Hz
Slope select : Disable/-12dB/-24dB

Phase adjustment: : 0° to -180° (-15°/step)

Room Gain Compensation:
Frequency select : 25/31/40Hz
Slope select : Disable/-6dB/-12dB

Parametric Equalizer (PEQ1 and PEQ2):
Frequency select : 31/35/40/46/50/56/63/70/80/90/100/112/125Hz
Level select : +3dB/-12dB (1dB increment)
Q Factor select: 2.0/2.4/2.9/3.6/4.8/5.7/7.2/9.6/14.4