Need speaker and crossover advice

[vtsteevo]

A few weeks ago I purchased a nice 5.1 home theater setup from audioholics and a Denon AVR-1909 receiver. After running Audyssey over and over, the Denon constantly keeps setting the front towers to 200 HZ crossover. This made me question the ability of my front towers to handle frequencies below 200 HZ because the speakers are rated at 80HZ and up. I manually switched the crossover to 100HZ, but still felt like something was missing. In the next 2 weeks I ran all kind of tests, even tried different speakers, but never felt like I could clearly isolate the speakers as the problem. The manufacturer even sent me a replacement set in-case there was something wrong with mine. However after getting the replacement set I was still not happy..... Last night I downloaded some test tones and ran a few final tests.

Here are the tests that I ran:
Setup: 2.1 Chan Stereo
Front Speaker Towers:
Subwoofer: FOUR 4” Aluminized Fiberglass Matrix
Tweeter: 1” Poly Silk
Impedance: 8 Ohms
Frequency response: 80HZ - 20 KHZ
Sensetivity: 87 dB

Sub: 10” Aluminum, 30HZ – 150 HZ


Test 1:
Played 180HZ tone with crossover on the front speakers set to 100HZ. The volume and clarity of the test tone were good. I then switched the crossover to 200HZ, moving the work-load off the speakers and onto the sub. The volume and clarity of the test tone after the crossover change remained the same.

Test 2:
Played 120HZ tone with the crossover on the front speakers set to 100HZ. The volume of the test tone was bad, not nearly as loud as the tone in Test 1. The clarity was still good. I then switched the crossover to 200HZ, moving the work-load off the speakers and onto the sub. The volume and clarity of the test tone was much better, and matched that of what I heard in Test 1.

Does this conclude that the front speakers are not able to adequately re-produce tones of at least 80HZ to 120 HZ?

I’ve also noticed that when listening to TV or a CD track, there is a slight increase in base when switching the crossover frequency from 100HZ to 200HZ, which makes sense. I wouldn’t say the sub is “localized” with the crossover at 200HZ when watching DVDs, but when listening to CDs it definitely makes the front speakers a bit more isolated.

I see my choices are:
1. Leave the frequency at 200 HZ. This is acceptable.
2. Turn it to 100HZ. You aren’t missing out on much.
3. There is nothing wrong with the speakers. They only have 4 inch woofers, what do you expect? Exchange them for something with a bigger woofer before the trial period runs out.
4. Something is wrong with the speakers. Four 4 inch woofers should be able to handle 120HZ.

Please note that I can’t get a second sub (wife factor and no pre-outs on Denon 1909)

What do guys think?

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Dont pay any attention to where the auto cal sets your crossover. After you run it, go back in and set the crossover to 80hz-100hz and make sure the speakers are set to small.

 

[vtsteevo]

Yes, I should mention that in the set-up, the speakers are set to "Small".

 

[Midcow2]

Crossover frequency

Nice clarity on your test results.

As said by other, the Audyssey setup just gives you a good starting point, it is not hte ultimate answer. YOU, the listener can and should adjust to your tastes.

From you test (2) it sounds as if your front speakers cannot handle a 120 Hz frenquency or lower. From your test(1) , it sounds as if your front speakers can handle a frequency as low as 180 Hz.

So, your crossover should be set higher than 120 Hz and somewhere between 120 Hz and 180 Hz, since 180 Hz is okay.

From page 31 of your manual you can set the crossover frequency at the following values: 40, 60, 80, 90, 100, 110,120, 150, 200, 250.

If you can run a test tone of 150Hz and it sound sokay, then you can set the crossover at 150 Hz and I would do so . If you cannot run a test tone or you can run a 150 Hz test tone and it sounds bad, then leave your crossover set at 200 Hz.

I am assuming that your "Subwoofer: FOUR 4” Aluminized Fiberglass Matrix" can handle 200 Hz and below frequencies. I am not familiar with that subwoofer.

 

[vtsteevo]

If you can run a test tone of 150Hz and it sound okay, then you can set the cross over at 150 Hz and I would do so . If you cannot run a test tone or you can run a 150 Hz test tone and it sounds bad, then leave your crossover set at 200 Hz.

I am assuming that your "Subwoofer: FOUR 4” Aluminized Fiberglass Matrix" can handle 200 Hz and below frequencies. I am not familiar with that subwoofer.

I'll audition 150HZ tonight, thanks for the advice.

As far as the subwoofer, I am referring to the individual woofers on the front speakers. There are four of them, and they are four inches each.

 

[Midcow2]

I'll audition 150HZ tonight, thanks for the advice.

As far as the subwoofer, I am referring to the individual woofers on the front speakers. There are four of them, and they are four inches each.

Do you have a separate subwoofer ? Usually you need a larger diameter speaker to handle the lower subwoofer frequencies; many subwoofers are 10 inches or 12 inches or more. If you don't have a separate subwoofer you might consider a separate subwoofer; SVS makes great subwoofers> Here is al ink oto their site: http://www.svsound.com/products-sub.cfm

Good Luck!

 

[avarsity921]

Front Speaker Towers:
Subwoofer: FOUR 4” Aluminized Fiberglass Matrix
Tweeter: 1” Poly Silk
Impedance: 8 Ohms
Frequency response: 80HZ - 20 KHZ
Sensetivity: 87 dB

Sub: 10” Aluminum, 30HZ – 150 HZ

I think his towers are 4" woofers with a 1" silk dome, and he has a seperate 10" subwoofer. It's a little confusing since two different parts were labeled as a subwoofer.

 

[vtsteevo]

I think his towers are 4" woofers with a 1" silk dome, and he has a seperate 10" subwoofer. It's a little confusing since two different parts were labeled as a subwoofer.

Exactly. I pasted the specs from the website and they had them labeled as "subwoofers" and not "woofers".

So to clarify, the towers are Four 4" woofers. The sub has One 10" woofer.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think if your Towers can't even handle 120 Hz, then you might as well save some money and get Bookshelf/Monitor speakers.

The only point I see of getting Towers is for 2.0 CD music listening, in which case you definitely need full-range (30-40 Hz).

Otherwise, I would just get 5 identical bookshelf speakers + a Subwoofer.

 

[no. 5]

Does this conclude that the front speakers are not able to adequately re-produce tones of at least 80HZ to 120 HZ?

It would seem so, however, below 200 - 300Hz the room is in control of frequency response, so the speakers may be able to do ~100Hz, but listener/speaker position may be causing a null at your chair. If that is the case, changing speakers will not help. You could try the test again, but walk about your room to see if the loudness of the tone changes with your location in the room.

I see my choices are:
1. Leave the frequency at 200 HZ. This is acceptable.
2. Turn it to 100HZ. You aren’t missing out on much.

It depends on what you can live with. In my opinion, if those were the only options, I would set the crossover at 200Hz and move the subwoofer between the main speakers.

3. There is nothing wrong with the speakers. They only have 4 inch woofers, what do you expect? Exchange them for something with a bigger woofer before the trial period runs out.

This may be you best option for highest sound quality.

4. Something is wrong with the speakers. Four 4 inch woofers should be able to handle 120HZ.

Well, a four inch woofer can handle 120Hz, but that doesn't mean that four inch woofer (in that cabinet) can.

Please note that I can’t get a second sub (wife factor and no pre-outs on Denon 1909)

What about a pair of these?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What about a pair of these?

38-120 Hz (±3dB)?

And the Actual measured response is probably even worse.

He needs to get a real subwoofer that goes down to at least 20 Hz IMO.

 

[no. 5]

38-120 Hz (±3dB)?

And the Actual measured response is probably even worse.

He needs to get a real subwoofer that goes down to at least 20 Hz IMO.

A 20Hz subwoofer ain't gunna be small, and it will not solve the problem of directionality with a high crossover or any issues coming from room interaction, my recommendation was based on the small size (nine inch cube!) having a higher WAF, with the possibility of allowing two subs.

The measured response isn't that far off; 42.9Hz to 146.9 (+/- 3dB).

 

[vtsteevo]

Update, I downloaded some test tones and used a sound meter to measure the output. I am just not sure how to interpret the results...

The tests were run in 2.0 mode with receiver set to -30 db, and speakers set to Large with No subwoofer. The sound meter was placed at the listening position and test tones from 80 HZ to 200 HZ were played. I jogged down the db output on the sound meter for each test tone for the towers, and then replaced the towers, placing the satellite speakers in the exact same position, and repeating the test.

As you can see there is a difference in db output between the towers and the satellites between 80 and 120 HZ. Specifically, the difference is quite large for the 110 and 120 HZ test tone!

Is this normal? Should I be concerned with the output of the towers at 110 and 120 HZ?

 

[jcPanny]

Speaker setup.

Interesting results with the SPL meter. I think that the tower speaker are interacting with your room causign the dip at 120 Hz. Try adjusting the speaker location, distance from wall, and toe in to minimize this effect.

Also, those towers (and setellite speakers) are definately capable of an 80 Hz crossover setting.

 

[vtsteevo]

Towers are already toed in, but i'll try a different angle tonight. Speaker height was the only other difference in the test since the towers are much higher then the satellites, so I'll also try turning the towers up-side-down

 

[TLS Guy]

A few weeks ago I purchased a nice 5.1 home theater setup from audioholics and a Denon AVR-1909 receiver. After running Audyssey over and over, the Denon constantly keeps setting the front towers to 200 HZ crossover. This made me question the ability of my front towers to handle frequencies below 200 HZ because the speakers are rated at 80HZ and up. I manually switched the crossover to 100HZ, but still felt like something was missing. In the next 2 weeks I ran all kind of tests, even tried different speakers, but never felt like I could clearly isolate the speakers as the problem. The manufacturer even sent me a replacement set in-case there was something wrong with mine. However after getting the replacement set I was still not happy..... Last night I downloaded some test tones and ran a few final tests.

Here are the tests that I ran:
Setup: 2.1 Chan Stereo
Front Speaker Towers:
Subwoofer: FOUR 4” Aluminized Fiberglass Matrix
Tweeter: 1” Poly Silk
Impedance: 8 Ohms
Frequency response: 80HZ - 20 KHZ
Sensetivity: 87 dB

Sub: 10” Aluminum, 30HZ – 150 HZ


Test 1:
Played 180HZ tone with crossover on the front speakers set to 100HZ. The volume and clarity of the test tone were good. I then switched the crossover to 200HZ, moving the work-load off the speakers and onto the sub. The volume and clarity of the test tone after the crossover change remained the same.

Test 2:
Played 120HZ tone with the crossover on the front speakers set to 100HZ. The volume of the test tone was bad, not nearly as loud as the tone in Test 1. The clarity was still good. I then switched the crossover to 200HZ, moving the work-load off the speakers and onto the sub. The volume and clarity of the test tone was much better, and matched that of what I heard in Test 1.

Does this conclude that the front speakers are not able to adequately re-produce tones of at least 80HZ to 120 HZ?

I’ve also noticed that when listening to TV or a CD track, there is a slight increase in base when switching the crossover frequency from 100HZ to 200HZ, which makes sense. I wouldn’t say the sub is “localized” with the crossover at 200HZ when watching DVDs, but when listening to CDs it definitely makes the front speakers a bit more isolated.

I see my choices are:
1. Leave the frequency at 200 HZ. This is acceptable.
2. Turn it to 100HZ. You aren’t missing out on much.
3. There is nothing wrong with the speakers. They only have 4 inch woofers, what do you expect? Exchange them for something with a bigger woofer before the trial period runs out.
4. Something is wrong with the speakers. Four 4 inch woofers should be able to handle 120HZ.

Please note that I can’t get a second sub (wife factor and no pre-outs on Denon 1909)

What do guys think?

Crossovers are not brick wall. They are either 12 or 24 db per octave slope. You need to measure your speakers set to large.

I have a hunch you towers and sub are out of phase at crossover. Set your crossover to 80 or 100 Hz and play a tone at the crossover frequency. Adjust the phase of your sub for maximum output at crossover.