Need some help with Dyn 122s

[cannon_dt]

Hello all !!
I currently own the foll set up:
Marantz CD 7300
Marantz PM 7200 amp
Dyn 122s

Somehow I am not happy and I am positive it is because of the amp. I think the speakers are far too honest for the bright marantz IMHO.

Anyways I wanted to knock on the doors of you experts to check out the best match for the dyns - what in your opinion is a nice AMP for the 122s. I loved the NAD c372 with the 122s but unfortunately that amp is oop. My budget is around 700-800$. Please let me know your suggestions.

Thanks,
Ananth

 

[Socialcircle]

Ati

Look for a used ATI 1504 or 1506 and then use it in bridged mode to drive those Dyns. I saw an ATI 1506 on Audiogon about a month ago for $800. In bridged mode the ATI 1500 series has 450 watts per channel and really bring out the dynamics of the Dyns.

 

[highfigh]

Look for a used ATI 1504 or 1506 and then use it in bridged mode to drive those Dyns. I saw an ATI 1506 on Audiogon about a month ago for $800. In bridged mode the ATI 1500 series has 450 watts per channel and really bring out the dynamics of the Dyns.

What does that amp like to see for a load in bridged mode? Remember, older Dynaudios have a reputation for being hard on an amp and when an amp it bridged, the effective load is half of the actual load.

That said, a McIntosh amp shouldn't have much trouble if it has the 4 and 8 Ohm taps at the speaker terminals- those are autoformers and they don't care as much if the load is unstable unless it really drops low.

 

[cannon_dt]

Replace the 7200

Is there a powerful enough integrated amp for driving the dyns and of course within the budget.
I dont yet want to consider a pre/power combo or a bridged mode combination.

@SocialCircle
Thanks for the ATI suggestion, will definitely check them out. But I am in India and I cannot get my hands on this easily - what I mean is that I would like to demo the bridge mode before making a decision but that is going to be a definite impossibility.

@highfigh
I dont if I can ever get to audition a Macintosh - I have read about them but I dont think I can source them anywhere here.

 

[Davemcc]

My initial response...I don't think it's the amp. It's a good, solid state amp rated stable into a 4 ohm load.

Tell us more about the room that the speakers are set up in, i.e. dimensions, placement, furniture, surfaces, acoustic treatments, etc. I think there is more to be gained in controlling the room, if that hasn't been done already, than in swapping out a perfectly good amplifier.

 

[cannon_dt]

Here you go

@Dave
Room is around 20x12 feet. Got lots of furniture (a lazy boy, 2 cupboards housing my CD and books and my computer). No treatment done.
I still dont think it is my room - I just think the marantz is unable to drive the dyns - that does not go to mean that the amp is bad

 

[GirgleMirt]

I think the speakers are far too honest for the bright marantz IMHO.

@Dave
I just think the marantz is unable to drive the dyns - that does not go to mean that the amp is bad

Well what is it? First you said the Marantz was too bright, then you said it was unable to drive the dyns... Which one is it?

You're not too happy about what exactly? Too bright? Don't you have a treble control or something to lower the highs on your receiver? What makes you think it's unable to drive the Dyns?

I loved the NAD c372 with the 122s but unfortunately that amp is oop.

What the hell is a oop? So you had a 372? What did the 372 do better?

 

[cannon_dt]

@GirgleMirt
I think bright/warmth is a characteristic that I dont like whereas the marantz not being able to drive is a power thingie. I am unworried about the latter anyway. It is the overall sound that I dont crave apparently - put in a free jazz record like Roy Campbell and it is too in my face - definitely not how a record like Akhenaten suite should sound.

OOP - is out of print - mea culpa. Was easy to write it though it applies to literature rather than amp/speaker manufacturing.

NAD C372 - sound is honest and the mid range is great. The marantz is great - I dont deny that. All I am saying is that there are better amps to pair with the dyns.
Hope I have answered your qns

 

[highfigh]

Hello all !!
I currently own the foll set up:
Marantz CD 7300
Marantz PM 7200 amp
Dyn 122s

Somehow I am not happy and I am positive it is because of the amp. I think the speakers are far too honest for the bright marantz IMHO.

Anyways I wanted to knock on the doors of you experts to check out the best match for the dyns - what in your opinion is a nice AMP for the 122s. I loved the NAD c372 with the 122s but unfortunately that amp is oop. My budget is around 700-800$. Please let me know your suggestions.

Thanks,
Ananth

How loud is it playing when it really starts to sound too bright? If it's only at medium-high and high SPL, it could easily be that the room has too many hard surfaces and the sound is reverberating for too long. If it's all hard surfaces and windows, it's likely that just hanging a temporary curtain will make it sound better. If you can have someone hold a blanket up and move it around the room, you can find the problem areas. I would start by placing it behind the speakers first, then at the side walls where the sound would reflect in a direct path to your listening position. You can use a mirror to find these spots- if you place a mirror flat on the wall and you can see the speaker, it should be treated in that area. You can try angling the speakers toward your listening position, too.

You show the room's dimensions- how high is the ceiling, how far from the back and side walls are the speakers and how close to the speakers are you sitting?

 

[GirgleMirt]

Hope I have answered your qns

Not really

I think bright/warmth is a characteristic that I dont like

Ok Most of the SS amps have < 0.5dB of deviation in FR from 20hz to 20khz. Speakers have easily 10 times more variation... And the room will easily add another 10 times deviation over the speaker's. So the warmth/brightness thing you mention is mostly the room and speakers. In the end, the amp has very little to do with it. Just think of easily 10dB variations from room speakers, and <0.5dB from the amp...

Ex: http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/907onk/index3.html vs http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/dynaudio_sapphire_loudspeaker/index4.html

You could do a lot more improvement by playing with placement, adding room treatment, changing speakers, etc...

t is the overall sound that I dont crave apparently - put in a free jazz record like Roy Campbell and it is too in my face - definitely not how a record like Akhenaten suite should sound.

Are you 100% sure that's the amps fault and not the speaker's? Got a pic of your setup?

Thanks for oop

NAD C372 - sound is honest and the mid range is great. The marantz is great - I dont deny that. All I am saying is that there are better amps to pair with the dyns.

I think you're putting too much faith in 'synergy'. Many swear by it, but hey, if you have a good amp able to adequately power your speakers, it will sound great with any good speakers. Either the amp can power the speakers, and does its job adequately, or it doesn't... I think the people gaining the most with 'synergy' are the dealers selling more amps.

The better amps thing is mostly audiophile bull. Most people who have compared amps in a controlled way have found very little difference. Actually, basically none.

See here:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=es&tl=en&u=http://www.matrixhifi.com/pruebasciegas.htm&rurl=translate.google.ca&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhiz2Mhf0UdL48s2vkshifiCVmuMHQ

NAD 370 vs Mark Levinson costing more than 10x more: No differences were found between the SOUND MARK LEVINSON and NAD.

Denon vs YBA, again, no difference.

Amps really do not make that much of a difference (probably and understatement). If you want good, cheap amplification, you can look at pro gear, which will offer you very good amplification for a fraction of the cost of overpriced audiophile 'junk'.

Another test, this time comparing a pioneer if I remember correctly, vs mega amps: http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx Again, same result. No difference when tested under blind conditions.

The thing that you think you're missing might simply be in your head. If the Marantz is, as you claim, great, then it's a waste of money to upgrade it.

Or, my advice, buy something with good return policies, and do a blind test yourself. See if you really hear a difference. While I don't doubt that the Dyns are good speakers, they're probably your limiting factor here. I like Dyns, but if you compare their line, I believe their Audience line is their budget line. Going up the line would give better sound quality. Floorstanders often do give you better bass, but the Contour line and the like would probably be more what you're looking for... Anyhow, my guess... Maybe the Marantz really has trouble with the 4ohms and 86dB efficiency of the Dyns in your, possibly large room... I don't know, but usually speakers and rooms is a lot bigger issue than amplification...

 

[highfigh]

Or, my advice, buy something with good return policies, and do a blind test yourself. See if you really hear a difference. While I don't doubt that the Dyns are good speakers, they're probably your limiting factor here. I like Dyns, but if you compare their line, I believe their Audience line is their budget line. Going up the line would give better sound quality. Floorstanders often do give you better bass, but the Contour line and the like would probably be more what you're looking for... Anyhow, my guess... Maybe the Marantz really has trouble with the 4ohms and 86dB efficiency of the Dyns in your, possibly large room... I don't know, but usually speakers and rooms is a lot bigger issue than amplification...

The Audience series isn't particularly bright sounding, really. The highs are definitely there, but unless someone is extremely close, they shouldn't sound overly strong in that region. I did a system a couple of years ago and all of the speakers I supplied are either Audience 42 or Audience 52. In the sun room, where they have a pair of bookcases on either side of a large mirror, bead board ceiling, tile floor and facing a wall with widows to within 30" of the floor and wainscot below that, the Audience 42 in the bookcase sound excellent, with no problem with the mid-range lacking due to the augmentation in the bass (bookcase mounting) or treble (hard surfaces). The Kitchen has the same model, placed on the upper cabinets and no enhancement by surrounding surfaces. The den has the AV system, using the Audience 52 as the mains, 42C and 42W (on-wall surround) and Sub250, with the sofa less than 10' away- again, no problem with it sounding overly bright. I'm using a Denon AV receiver and when I ran Audyssy, it didn't do much to the equalization.

If you want, I'll check the EQ settings and compare with/without EQ. Since I'll have my laptop with me when I go tomorrow, I can either use REW or TrueRTA to get an idea of the response. The room is actually pretty small, but it has two good sized doorways and a door that opens to the sunroom, but is usually closed. The walls have a jute covering and a high ceiling- nothing that would make anyone think it's a great room for this use, but it works well at all volume levels.

I can't see the Marantz having a problem with the Dynaudios if the Denon doesn't, unless it has an inherent problem- that's unlikely, because it would probably exhibit some other issue, like shutting off intermittently or distorting. I think it could be the room.

 

[highfigh]

Hello all !!
I currently own the foll set up:
Marantz CD 7300
Marantz PM 7200 amp
Dyn 122s

Somehow I am not happy and I am positive it is because of the amp. I think the speakers are far too honest for the bright marantz IMHO.

Anyways I wanted to knock on the doors of you experts to check out the best match for the dyns - what in your opinion is a nice AMP for the 122s. I loved the NAD c372 with the 122s but unfortunately that amp is oop. My budget is around 700-800$. Please let me know your suggestions.

You're not using this for MP3 discs, are you?
Thanks,
Ananth

How long have you owned these speakers? Did you buy them new, or from someone else? If from someone else, is it possible that they had them modified or repaired? Have you rearranged the room, recently? Did you change anything in the system? Is the comment about the NAD sounding better just searching for a reason to not like the Marantz?

I'm going to make a recommendation with the disclaimer that I'm not one of the "My new audio cables complete me" types. Are you using optical or digital coax for the audio from the CD player, or analog cables? If you're using analog, like I am, try another set to find out if they make a difference. When I connected my DVD player, it sounded nasty. Harsh, bright and bad enough to piss off the Pope. I didn't give the cables a thought because they had worked but, as I mentioned, I'm not a fan of high dollar cables with all of the hype and actually considered returning it, even if if meant that it would cost me in the form of a restocking fee (I bought it from one of my distributors). I was about to disconnect it and remove it from the system when I looked at the cables connecting my CD player, so I thought I would try them. Night and day difference. Absolutely different from the ones I had been using to connect my old VCR's audio to the amp.

The point isn't that the cables I'm using are so much better than what's available- it's that the ones I had used were so much worse. I didn't bother to check them out in any way- I just tossed them. If this had happened this year, I would have checked them for capacitance and inductance, but that wasn't a possibility at the time. If you have a spare set of decent cables that you aren't using, try them with the DC player. I wouldn't go out and drop a bundle if this hasn't been tried, but just something good and most of all, different. It's hard enough to find equipment that makes us happy and worrying about why something isn't working or doesn't sound good makes us very neurotic.

 

[Socialcircle]

I don't know the answer to your question. But I can tell you this ATI amp has driven my Dynaudio Contour 1.3MKIIs in bridged mode for the last 5 years without any problem whatsoever.

 

[cannon_dt]

This is confusing

@GirgleMirt
Ok, you lost me with all the khz and the dB stuff.
Dont know whose fault but with Dyn 122s and PM 7200 I leant towards the amp, thats all - instinctive more than anything else - the fact with the NAD (pls dont kill me for bringing up the NAD way too often)

I know where you are getting with the synergy but then in the same room with the same set up (incl furniture et al), dream theater sounded awesome with the NAD and dyns. So what does that lead one to believe?

I see where you are going but that path leaves me with no action. What do I do about the room? Emotiva is highly recommended - pre + power combo but then I am in India and to test them - that in itself would need a budget unto itself

Are you saying that Dyns could be the issue - I had a pair of Jamo E855 with the PM 7200 and they were AWFUL ! I gave them up for the Dyns.... please dont send me down that road again

@highfigh
I picked it up from my distributor friend who had it on demo for around 4 months. No mods on it.
Room not rearranged.
I am usign CHORD interconnects (analog)
And NO, my love for NAD is not making me hate the marantz (though I have to admit you had me thinking for a while!!)

So I dont think the cables are bad - I did use the plain old ones that the distr gave me and the CHORD was sounding better if not fantabulous (though - sheepishly I admit - I was expecting a dramatic improvement)

The speaker is about 2 feet from the wall and 5 ft from the amp. It is at one end of the 20 ft room and my listening dist is anywhere between 6-12 ft (st from the amp)....

I will try and get a pic.

 

[highfigh]

Are you saying that Dyns could be the issue - I had a pair of Jamo E855 with the PM 7200 and they were AWFUL ! I gave them up for the Dyns.... please dont send me down that road again

@highfigh
I picked it up from my distributor friend who had it on demo for around 4 months. No mods on it.
Room not rearranged.
I am usign CHORD interconnects (analog)
And NO, my love for NAD is not making me hate the marantz (though I have to admit you had me thinking for a while!!)

So I dont think the cables are bad - I did use the plain old ones that the distr gave me and the CHORD was sounding better if not fantabulous (though - sheepishly I admit - I was expecting a dramatic improvement)

The speaker is about 2 feet from the wall and 5 ft from the amp. It is at one end of the 20 ft room and my listening dist is anywhere between 6-12 ft (st from the amp)....

I will try and get a pic.

The Jamo speakers are hardly on the same level as the Dynaudio, even though they have always used a lot of good drivers- the fact that they cost less than $500 each make it an uneven comparison. Chord, as in The Chord Company, that makes a line called 'Chrysalis'? I'm not making a recommendation or anything, just trying to find out who they are. I used Planet Waves on the system with the Audience speakers and since I had some left over, I used them in my system- they're not remarkable, either good or bad. I don't notice anything unless I replace a bad cable and I don't want to get into listening to each connection. If I want to hear a lot of detail in the music when it's played through my system, and I can, I only try to change something if I can verify that it's causing a problem. I have been working on my speakers mostly- I built them years ago and have recently changed the drivers, so I still need to finish re-working the crossovers but they have a lot of really good characteristics. At the moment, looks aren't one of those but if/when I get them to the point of being "finished with the design and testing", I'll make them look like something I want to see.

What are the room dimensions? It's possible that you're sitting at a spot where the sound from the speakers is being reflected differently from both sides and you're hearing destructive interference and comb filtering. This causes harshness and is noticeable when you move your head.

 

[Davemcc]

@Dave
Room is around 20x12 feet. Got lots of furniture (a lazy boy, 2 cupboards housing my CD and books and my computer). No treatment done.
I still dont think it is my room - I just think the marantz is unable to drive the dyns - that does not go to mean that the amp is bad

There is a lot of potential acoustic issues going on in the room. Since the issue is brightness, we can pay attention to issues that affect high frequencies. If the cupboards have doors, they could be highly reflective. If they are open, they could act as diffusers. If the wall behind the speakers is bare, you could be experiencing first reflection issues that when combined with reflections off the back wall, create a sort of ringing effect with high frequencies bouncing around the room.

When looking to diagnose a particular effect, I always say it's more cost effective to examine the free fixes before spending money on a possible fix. It won't cost anything to hang some blankets behind the speakers to see if absorbing the first reflections will help tame the brightness. Placing open cabinets on the back wall to provide some diffusion is also a way to experiment free with some acoustic issues. You didn't mention carpeting or curtains, which could also positively affect some of the high frequency issues you might be experiencing.

Try the free stuff first. If it seems to have a generally positive effect, you can budget to get more professional and attractive acoustic products.

 

[cannon_dt]

@highfigh
Romm dimensions are 20 x 12 ft
Chord as in THE CHORD COMPANY - I paid a hefty sum for it and for the performance - not too thrilled
The cupboards are to my left and to my right is bare wall - this I am sure would result in unequal reflection but I dont think I can do anything about it.

I think all will be clear when I get a pic. Will def get it done tomorrow (no cam at the moment) and upload it tom.

@davemcc
No carpets, curtains are there on all windows in the room.

They are not strictly cupboards - one is a cabinet with glass sliders, the other one has a bunch of doors that open into each section of the cubboard. I will check it out leaving them open.
Will also definitely try out the blankets.

 

[cannon_dt]

Pics of room attached herewith

Thats the room dynamics, any suggestions ?

 

[highfigh]

Thats the room dynamics, any suggestions ?

Can we get a shot of the whole wall behind the speakers?

 

[cannon_dt]

Entire wall pic attached