Need helps picking a subwoofer for room 13x14

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sumasage

Enthusiast
I am very new to home audio so forgive my noob-ness. My room right now is 13x14. What size of subwoofer is good? My budget is about $300 but would like to spend as little as possible :D.

I came across an Infinity PS212 on buy.com for $300. My research shows positive review for this sub but also that i can get better one for the same price.

Is a 12" 400W sub good enough to fill my room? I might be moving to a larger room (half basement type) so i am looking for something that i can keep for long term.

Any help or alternative sub suggestions would be very helpful. Thanks.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Welcome to the forum!

Ahhh, subs. No end of opinion on them. :)

You mentioned $300 - is that your budget? Knowing what you'll spend certainly influences this. There are subs that play loud, subs that play deep (i.e. can hit lower frequencies), subs that have built in equilizers, and subs that have a combination of the above. There are other attributes, too, such as size, aesthetics, connections, and so on.

How high are your ceilings? Looking at subs, you want to look at the volume of your space, not just the area in square feet.

I know that I didn't answer your questions, but instead asked some of my own. This is just to get the ball rolling.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Since you're new to this a 400 watt sub should impress you. I have almost the same space 14x14 as you have and I am running (2) 400 watt and (2) 1000 watt subs. I guess it all depends at what stage of the game you're at. As for starters a 400 watt sub would be a good choice.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Yup, the wide world of subs is an interesting, and sometimes overwhelming place :)

One thing to know is that we humans don't really hear bass very well. We kinda suck at it, really :p Our hearing at different frequencies is not linear. At low volumes, we can hear mid-range frequencies ok (the range of the human voice), but at the very same volume, we can barely hear bass notes at all! Turn up the SPL (Sound Pressure Level) to 85dB and our hearing from 20Hz (the lowest note that a human with healthy hearing can detect - give or take a Hertz or two ;) ) on up to 20,000Hz (the highest note we can detect, although after about age 15, this starts to get lower. Most adults can't hear much over 15,000Hz. A lot of people can't even hear that high. Remember though that every doubling of frequency is only one octave. So while 40Hz is one octave higher than 20Hz; 20,000Hz is only one octave higher than 10,000Hz!) is pretty much linear. So an 85dB 25Hz note will subjectively sound about as loud as an 85dB 1,000Hz note, and subjectively about as loud as any other 85dB note from 20Hz on up to 20,000Hz. FYI, that is why "reference" volume level is a nominal 85dB with dynamic peaks as loud as 105dB and dynamic peaks in the low bass as loud as 115dB - since, once again, above 85dB, our hearing stops being linear again ;)

Anywho, all of that preamble is to say that when it comes to a subwoofer, our limited human hearing really only responds to three primary attributes: depth of bass (how low the subwoofer can play), loudness of bass, and transient response (how quickly the bass notes start and stop). Those are sort of the three key aspects of bass performance that are really important to consider in a subwoofer. So when we talk about one subwoofer being "better" than another, it's mostly going to be about either being able to play lower, play louder, or play with better transient response - which will often bring up words like "clean" or "tight" or on the flipside, "bloat" or "overhang" or "muddy".

Of course, there is also linearity and accuracy to consider. If the signal going to your subwoofer is telling it to play a 95dB note at 65Hz, it would be nice if the subwoofer actually played that correct note at the correct volume, yes?

Linearity is a very tricky matter because the subwoofer itself might or might not be linear, but the room acoustics also play a HUGE role in how linear the subwoofer will sound when it is placed in a given spot in the room and you are listening from a given spot in that room. If you move, or the subwoofer is moved, the response that you hear can totally change! The subwoofer won't be playing any differently, but due to the fact that bass interacts very strongly with the room, the room's acoustics will strongly affect what you actually hear.

So a perfectly linear sub is nice - it's always good to start with a subwoofer that plays linearly when it is all by itself, without the effects of the room's acoustics acting on it. But it's important to remember that even the most linear subwoofer will not SOUND linear in a room. So being perfectly linear isn't always of paramount importance in a sub. If you want to HEAR linear bass in your room, you're going to have to make adjustments anyway.

Accuracy is a different matter. You definitely want your subwoofer to be accurate. When the signal says to play a certain note, that's the note you want your subwoofer to play! With very cheap subwoofers, you will often hear them described as being "one note" subwoofers, or maybe just "inaccurate". A lot of very cheap subwoofers simply do not play the notes that they are asked to play. That's a REALLY bad thing, and something you should want to avoid completely!

So with that out of the way, what are some other things to consider with a subwoofer?

Well, there is physical size, whether the subwoofer is sealed or has a port (or several ports), how big the driver is, how powerful the amplifier is. And how all of that stuff works together to make a sub that can play low, play loud, play with good transient response, and play linearly and with high accuracy...or not ;)

One thing to know is that the primary job of a subwoofer is to move air. Sound is just moving matter. If we want to make a loud noise, we have to move a lot of air! And the lower the note, the more air we have to move in order to make it sound just as loud as a higher note. In other words, low, loud notes require the movement of A LOT of air!

So how do we want to move the air? Do we want to move it efficiently? If we do, then it makes sense to use a big driver. A 15" woofer has a lot more surface area than a 10" driver, so it already has an advantage when it comes to moving more air. That 10" driver COULD move just as much air as that bigger 15" driver, but in order to do so, it's going to have to move in and out (called the excursion) a lot more. So the big 15" driver can move a little, but in order to sound just as loud, the 10" driver would have to move a lot!

Moving something a lot requires more power from the amplifier. So even though you might think that you need more power to move a big driver, it's actually the other way around! You only have to move that big driver a little bit, so that doesn't take as much power. With the smaller driver, if you want it to play just as loud, you have to move it a lot, so that takes more power. In other words, just saying "a 400 Watt" amp doesn't tell you the whole story. A 400 Watt amp connected to a 10" driver isn't going to move as much air as that same 400Watt amp connected to a bigger 15" driver.

Of course, a bigger driver is going to need a bigger box. If you want a small box, you have to use a smaller driver. And if you want that smaller box and smaller driver to play just as loud as the big driver in a big box, you're going to have to use a much more powerful amp in the SMALL box so that you can move that small driver a lot more!

That's the basics, but there is one more thing to consider. The box itself can help to reinforce the sound that the driver is making. Just like the body of an acoustic guitar amplifies the sound made by the guitar string, the box of the subwoofer can be used as a chamber that resonates and amplifies the sound made by the subwoofer driver. And just like the body of an acoustic guitar, if you want the box of the subwoofer to amplify the sound in this way, it has to have a hole in it - which on a subwoofer, is called a port.

So a ported subwoofer is more efficient in terms of how loud it can play vs a sealed subwoofer. With a sealed subwoofer, you are relying entirely on the movement of the subwoofer driver to move the air and create all the sound. With a ported subwoofer, the box of the subwoofer comes into play and amplifies the sound through resonance.

Now, a big box is going to resonate at a lower frequency than a small box. So again, a small box makes things tough. A very efficient way to make a subwoofer is to use a fairly small driver and a fairly low-power amp, but to put them in a BIG ported box! The small driver with the small amp won't move very much air all on their own, but that big ported box will resonate at low frequencies and amplify the small output of the small driver and small amp.

Naturally, if you put a big driver with a big amp in a big ported box, you can get MASSIVE output! Put a small driver with a small amp in a small box - even a ported one - and the output will be quiet. So...most subwoofers fall somewhere in the middle. Maybe small driver, small sealed box, HUGE amp. Or maybe big driver, medium-sized sealed box, medium amp. Or maybe medium driver, medium amp, big ported box! It's all about compromises. But it's all about moving the air, and it's just a matter of choosing how you're going to accomplish that!

...continued below...
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
With a $300 budget, you have to realize that you're limited in most areas. You can't expect to get a big driver, a big amp and a big box. It's just a matter of the cost of materials! Luckily, you're in a small room though. Having huge output is not going to be a priority for you. So you shouldn't worry about a subwoofer that can play loud. Instead, you should only worry about it being able to play low, with good transient response and with linearity and accuracy.

You're going to want to look for efficiency. You have to expect a small, low-power amp and probably a small driver. So the best way for you to get deep output is going to be with a bigger, ported box!

If you hate the idea of a physically large subwoofer, then you're kinda stuck. Small subs kinda have to be sealed. When they're small, if they're ported, the resonant frequency is higher, so the ported box won't help a physically small subwoofer to play deep. If the box is small and sealed, the only choice is to move the small driver like crazy, which means a massively powerful amp! And that costs money...money that you don't have in your current budget.

So, one good choice for you might be the Elemental Designs A2-250. It's a smaller driver (10") with a smaller amp (200Watt), but in a somewhat bigger, ported box (over 2 feet long, which gives it a longer port with a lower resonant frequency). The A2-250 is listed at $350, but you can look for deals online. eD will often offer discount coupons and such, so you could look for those.

The HSU STF-1 is another possible choice. It's a smaller driver (8") with a smaller amp (150Watts) in a smaller, ported box, so - you guessed it - it can't play as loud or as low as the eD A2-250 sub. But it lists for $299 and it has really excellent transient response and accuracy. If you are more interested in music than in movies or games, giving up some of the deepest bass for better transient response is a good idea when you have a limited budget. Basically, I would say that the A2-250 is a better choice for movies and games, but the STF-1 is a better choice for music in your case.

If you need to keep that budget as low as possible, consider the Outlaw Audio M8 . This is also an 8" driver with a slightly less powerful 125Watt amp in an even slightly smaller, ported box than the STF-1. Once again, that means it doesn't play as low or as loud as the STF-1, but at $249, it is still a pretty darn good subwoofer for the money! It will play nicely in your small room down to about 40Hz. Remember, 40Hz is just one octave above 20Hz. So you are giving up that deepest octave of bass, but for music, there isn't much down that deep anyway.

So, those are the three subwoofers that I would consider if I were in your position. They are all good, but each $50 step up in price gets you a little bit deeper output and a little louder output.

That Inifinity PS212 has a bigger driver (12"), bigger amp (400Watt), and a ported box that's around the same size as the STF-1. On paper, you would expect it to play a little lower and louder. But I'm afraid I don't know how good its transient response is, or how linear or accurate it is. Those things end up being the characteristics that might still make the STF-1 a better choice. I know for sure that the STF-1 has very good transient response, linearity and accuracy. So giving up a little bit of deep extension and loudness might still be a good idea. For example, Polk Audio has some 12" subs with bigger amps and bigger, ported boxes than the STF-1, but they have really crappy transient response, linearity and accuracy, so even though they can play lower and louder, they aren't as good overall as the STF-1.

Personally, I favor the STF-1 at this $300 price because I know its performance to be very good. If you don't play very much music and mostly care about movies and/or games, the eD A2-250 might be the better choice for that extra deep bass and loudness that it offers, but it isn't quite as good on transient response as the STF-1.

So, it isn't an easy decision. My guess, just based on experience, is that with the Infinity PS212 being priced so low, it might have very thin walls in that box, or very little internal bracing. That kind of construction can make a subwoofer have very poor transient response and accuracy, so it is something I would at least watch out for. Then again, it might just be on clearance and actually be a pretty good sub! So I would encourage you to look for more reviews on its performance and construction. On paper, it has the larger driver and amp, so those are advantages in this case. If it's just cheap because it's an older model, then it might be a very good deal indeed! I know that the three subwoofers that I mentioned above are good. I can vouch for them. And, like I said, I would probably favor the HSU STF-1 with a $300 budget myself. But the Infinity PS212 might just be an older model clearing out at an unusually low price ;)

Good luck in your decision!
 
S

Sylar

Full Audioholic
@FirstReflection...that is an awesome well detailed post for first timers like me. Although I did know bits and pieces after having read multiple posts, there was a lot more I didnt know :). Thanks a lot for the time!!

I think this should be in the AV University section, something like *Bass 101 for rookies*. If any moderators are around maybe this can be considered to be added in the AV University section...with some editing of course :)
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
FirstReflection

Great job on your posts 5+6. You spend some time on them, that's for sure and gave us a lot of helpfull information. We do appreciate your time and effort. Thanks
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Great job on your posts 5+6. You spend some time on them, that's for sure and gave us a lot of helpfull information. We do appreciate your time and effort. Thanks
Agreed! I just hope the OP comes back to see them.
 
S

sumasage

Enthusiast
Wow awesome replies guys, i'm a bit short on time now so i will have to come back and read it latter tonight.

To quick answer Adam - $300 is my budget and my ceiling is 8 ft.

Looking forward to the big post by FirstReflection :)
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I'm going to be very, VERY honest with you...$300 is a brutal budget for a subwoofer.

With that said, this is what I would consider with that budget:

http://www.emptek.com/es10iB0192.php

As for Infinity, they probably use a quality low distortion driver with a powerful amp. It's good a recipe for success, I suppose. I don't know how the cabinet is tuned though.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
What speakers do you have? Infinity Primus?

Is that why you were looking at the Infinity subwoofer?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I think if you only want a < $300 subwoofer, the BIC F12 will do for $184:

http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-F12-475-Watt-Subwoofer/dp/B0015A8Y5M/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1313349499&sr=8-2

I believe it is essentially the BIC H-100 subwoofer, which was designed by HSU Research.

The BIC H-100 will look nicer with it's high-gloss black finish. It is $220 (coupon code is TV15 on the sounddistributors.com website).

The BIC PL200 is $279 and has a bigger BASH amp (250W vs. 150W on the F12/H100).

But if you don't care for the nicer high-gloss and bigger amp, the F12 should be okay.

We are talking about a low-end subwoofer guys. Any $600+ subs from Epik, Rythmik, SVS, HSU will kill these low-end subs.

But if you are going to spend $300 or $350 on a HSU sub, you might as well just get the F12 or H100 since they are designed by HSU, so they are essentially HSU sub clones.
 
A

audioman

Enthusiast
subwoofer

I am very new to home audio so forgive my noob-ness. My room right now is 13x14. What size of subwoofer is good? My budget is about $300 but would like to spend as little as possible :D.

I came across an Infinity PS212 on buy.com for $300. My research shows positive review for this sub but also that i can get better one for the same price.

Is a 12" 400W sub good enough to fill my room? I might be moving to a larger room (half basement type) so i am looking for something that i can keep for long term.

Any help or alternative sub suggestions would be very helpful. Thanks.
I don't want to get into the technicallities of how a subwoofer works like the other guy. The way your system is going to sound it's best is based on matching your speakers based on the room environment or size of your listening area. since it's only a 13'x14' I would suggest a DUAL 8 inch subwoofer design such as the sunfire architecture series you find at ebay, independentaudio, audiogon and various other merchants besides directly from sunfire. Even a single 8 inch design with at least 200 watt rms built in amp is sufficient. BIC makes affordable speakers and subwoofers that are designed similar to klipsch. I don't know any Paradigm or SVS subs that has your budget. The largest driver I would recommend for you room is no larger then a 10 inch driver. It will sound too boomy if you have too much BASS in a small enclosure. Most non technical people likes to recommend a lot of bass, but that depends on the environment and room enclosures. If your main, center and rear speakers are too small and weak, they will get drowned out by too much bass from a subwoofer or subwoofers. It's about BALANCING and IMAGING by matching the rest of your surround speakers with your subs. If you have too much bass and your room is not treated with absorbing and reflective materials used for room treatment, too much bass will rattle cracks and crevices found on a non solid wall. You will be hearing more rattling then your high and mid range frequencies which will be irritating. There are many good designers. Among the polks, infinity, klipsch, energy, nht's etc. I found BIC to be affordable in comparison. There are others with not so popular names. BIC is one of the oldest loudspeaker manufacturers outside of klipsch and infinity's. KLH used to make the cheapest and they too are one of the oldest, but I think they don't manufacture HT speakers anymore sort of like AR or acoustic research which is one of the oldest also.
 
A

audioman

Enthusiast
subwoofer

Wow awesome replies guys, i'm a bit short on time now so i will have to come back and read it latter tonight.

To quick answer Adam - $300 is my budget and my ceiling is 8 ft.

Looking forward to the big post by FirstReflection :)
another AFFORDABLE good quality company you might want to check regarding subwoofers besides BIC and MTX for example is EMOTIVA. The reason I recommended the SUNFIRE architecture series is because it's the affordable version of SUNFIRE's line if you like sunfire or products based out of bob carver's designs when he used to own carver corporation and sunfire. Any of these companies makes decent subwoofers. If your budget was higher then 300 then I would look into other companies like paradigm, velodyne, miller and kreisler, REL,SVS, sunfire and earthquake. These companies make quality drivers and matching subwoofer amps.
 
S

sumasage

Enthusiast
Wow that is a really good read, i've learned so much from FirstReflection's post. I was looking for something like that. My main use for the system is for movie/games so i'm definitively looking for deep bass.

The PS212 listed price is $478 but on sale for $299, so im not sure if it is clearance or not.....

The eD A2-250 is HUGE! I will have to check my room space tonight to see if i can afford 24" box :( If it fit i will go with this sub.

The speakers that i am thinking of purchasing with the sub are:

Klipsch RF42 II $275 x2 (Loud speakers)
Klipsch RC42 II $230 (Center)

Or

KEF C5 $200 x2
KEF C6LCR $250 (Center)

Not sure which speakers set will sound better.

Thank for suggestions, keep them coming.

P.S Please dont laugh at my budget lol
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
The only issue I have with the HSU-engineered BIC subs is that with the box dimensions and the orientation of the driver and port (driver on the front, port right behind it on the back), they wind up with a shorter port length, and thus, a higher resonant frequency. When the F12 and PL-200 get measured, they wind up having a "hump" in the output up around 50Hz and then they slope off kinda quick below that. And that is because of the short port length in the design. To be clear, this is totally OK for music! You get more bass output where you notice it the most! But for movies, you end up losing a fair bit of that lowest octave. Stetching out the box length and the port along with it, the way the eD A2-250 does, you wind up with a lower "port tuning" is all. The A2-250 isn't a better sub all-around, but it does play lower, and for movies and games, that can be a bigger deal.

$300 for a sub certainly does mean restrictions - there's no getting around that! But if you know what you are after, you can at least compromise in the right areas so that you get the attributes that are most important to you. Out of the bunch that we've discussed, if the purpose is movies and games and not music, I have to give the nod to the eD A2-250. eD is all about getting the deepest extension with their subs, and they'll give up a little in the way of transient response to do it, but for movies, that's the right compromise to make. They're taking their car audio heritage and applying it to home theater. So you get some "boominess", but you gain the deep extension, the loud output and the "hit you in the chest" feeling that movies and games call for. The HSU STF-1 is a great "middle-ground" and is very similar to the BIC PL-200, though the BIC is a bit more about louder output with its larger driver.

So all of the choices have their pluses and minuses, but if what you are after is that "knock the wind out of you and make your eyes blur" sensation from movie explosions and gunshots in games, then the eD A2-250 is the one that's going to best deliver those experiences. If you can afford it and fit it, none of the other $300-ish subs will hit as low or with as much "oomph" ;)

By the way, if you think the "little" A2-250 is "huge" just check out eD's top-o-the-line A7-900! Over 4 feet tall, over 2 feet wide and deep, almost 400lbs! Now THAT'S a HUGE subwoofer! Dual 18" drivers and a 1300Watt amp in a ported box about the size of your fridge! :D In case you're wondering, it can play quite loud...

:p
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
If you're looking at $200-ish speakers, you're in that small room, and you'd favor a very neutral and accurate sound from your speakers, definitely consider the SVSound SBS-02 & SCS-02 Center speakers. I've been rather surprised and impressed by them.

What I really like about them for a small room in particular is that they are a sealed design with a bottom end that blends perfectly with a standard 80Hz cross-over.

While I might have talked about favoring a ported subwoofer with as long a port as possible in order to get the deepest bass out of a less expensive subwoofer, your speakers do not have the same goal. They don't need to play super deep - that's what you have your subwoofer for! But they DO need to play low enough and with the correct sort of bottom end slope to BLEND perfectly with your new subwoofer. That is far easier said than done. And in a small room, it can be even more difficult because your speakers are probably going to be positioned very close to a wall or maybe two walls.

A sealed speaker design allows for closer placement to a wall. If you have a ported speaker, you get the resonance of the port adding to the bass output from the speaker, but in a small room, with the speakers close to the walls, you also get the boundary reinforcement of that same bass due to the sound reflecting very strongly off of the nearby walls. You will also often have the port at the back of the speaker, in which case, air is literally coming out of the port and directly hitting the wall behind it.

So I strongly favor a sealed speaker in a small room especially. But it's a little bit rare to find good sealed speakers in the lower price range because most speaker makers are trying to get as much bass out of their little speakers. A lot of people expect to play them without a subwoofer. And the manufacturers are also trying to impress people with a "full" sound in the showroom without a subwoofer running to aid these small, inexpensive bookshelf speakers.

Thankfully, SVSound is first and foremost a subwoofer company. They expect you to use a subwoofer with their speakers. And they've designed their "small" and inexpensive speakers to blend more perfectly with a subwoofer and sound better in a small room, rather than trying to "hit above their weight class" and sound all big and "full" in a showroom!

The SBS-02 and SCS-02 have a really nice, clean, neutral sound. They remind me a lot of good, professional studio monitors. $299 for a pair of SBS-02 and $229 for the SCS-02 center - and those prices include shipping - should fall within your price range, I think.

The SVSound speakers are a bit plain looking. They only come in black. And they might be a bit physically bigger than you'd first expect. But for a small room and with a very capable subwoofer as their partner, I really, really like them and find them to be easier to place than most other speakers and they deliver very accurate, neutral sound.

SVSound's S-02 Series speakers with an eD sub would be a SWEET setup for a movie/game system in a small room. And they all have the capability to move to a larger room in the future too. Plenty of headroom available in their output. With that combo, you're going to get really great DEEP rumbles and "oomph" in the bass, really clear, neutral sound from the speakers, and perhaps most important of all, a really great BLEND between the speakers and the subwoofer where they cross-over. It's super tough to get all that on a limited budget, but that's why you came to this forum, right? ;)

That's what I would do with your budget in your room for a movie/game system, anyway :)
 
S

Sylar

Full Audioholic
By the way, if you think the "little" A2-250 is "huge" just check out eD's top-o-the-line A7-900! Over 4 feet tall, over 2 feet wide and deep, almost 400lbs! Now THAT'S a HUGE subwoofer! Dual 18" drivers and a 1300Watt amp in a ported box about the size of your fridge! :D In case you're wondering, it can play quite loud...
:p
...and u dont have to pay a single dollar for shipping that heavy monster within US....ED foots the bill
 
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