need help choosing speakers

[copmagnet82]

Hello all,

...so I moved into a new house and left my old set up from my high-school years at my parents house. Now I'm looking to build a new "home theater system" and need advice on speakers. Before I say anything else, let me put my flame suit on and tell you that what I left behind was a 5.1 Polk Audio set (RT series, late 1990's) with a Denon AVR-1913 receiver. For my new place, I was set on Polks, but over the past few weeks I decided to open myself up to other options.

The facts:

-this will be a "family room home theater system", not a man-cave system
-the room is 18ft x 20ft with "4th" wall open to the dining room
-the receiver is the Denon 4311CI
-I'm looking for budget set-up and don't really want to spend a fortune on the speakers
-has to be somewhat pleasing to the eye, the wife wants it to look "pretty"
...
-the speaker choices are in no particular order (...and I'm open to suggestions):

1. Polk Audio:
front: LSiM 707 or 705
center: LSiM 706c
surround: LSiM702F/X
sub: not now, sometime down the line

2. B&W
front: CM10 or CM9 (leaning towards CM9's, since I can get a matching center channel and possibly surrounds)
center: CMC2
surround: between CM1, CM5 mounted on a shelf or CWM663 in-wall
sub: not now, sometime down the line


I like the Polks, because I can actually get a entire matching set and surrounds won't be an eyesore. With the B&W's on the other hand, CM1s/5s will be kind of an eyesore on the wall and I'm not sure about the performance of the in-wall speakers (I usually try to stay away from anything without an enclosure).

So here it is... help me with me set-up, please.

 

[Pyrrho]

You need to listen to as many types of speakers as you can find (e.g., ribbon, horn, dome, whatever), of as many brands as you can stand to audition, of all of the types of music to which you normally listen, with music with which you are familiar (making a CDR for this is a good idea). Then select the ones you like best.

I expect that a Polk hater will come along soon enough, but I don't think that the LSiM series is likely to be a bad choice. If I were going with them, I personally would probably use their bookshelf speakers for all channels (with one vertical for the front center) to have perfect voice matching, and I would be using a subwoofer for the deep bass anyway, so the main speakers would not have to go very deep.

For a subwoofer, you can't go wrong with SVS. There are other good brands out there that are worth considering, but all of the SVS subwoofers are a good value at their price point, they have good warranties, good customer service, and they all perform very well. You just can't go wrong with them, so I recommend them highly.

 

[canelli]

copmagnet82

Congratulations on the new house. I made a move to a new house recently and have been dealing with placing B&W CM9 speakers in a dedicated media room. Due to the width of room with the media seating my wife and I would like, I no longer have space for tower side surrounds. Since B&W does not really offer any wall mounted surround speakers in the CM series, the in-wall option gets fairly expensive when compared to the price of the CM9s. Multiple B&W dealers have suggested using the CWM7.3 with the CM series. The current advertised price of the CWM7.3 is more than I paid for the CM9s. It seems ridiculous to spend more money on surrounds than the main speaker. It is something to consider when dealing with B&W CM speakers for home theater.

I am now having some buyer’s remorse with the CM9s due to the new house. With a dedicated room and a proper setup they sound much better, but dealing with the lack of speaker options has been more than a pain.

Having both Kef R300s and CM9s, I believe this might offer a better bang for the buck.
Fronts: Kef R300s est 1,500 pair (you can haggle price) – makes this about the price of one CM9
Center: R600c
Surround: R300s (about the same price as CM5s)
Or
Surround: R800ds (dipoles – wall mount)
Subs: SVS SB13-Ultra

Depending on your setup this gives you a damn nice 5.1 setup and gives you flexibility of adding the R700 or R900 later and still using the R300s in a 7.1 setup. The R300s can be wall mounted without much issue.

Along with Pyrrho and his great suggestion on listening to many types of speakers, some brands offer in home trials. In the past I did home auditions with both SVS and Kef. I highly recommend anyone considering new speakers to do the in home trial.

 

[shadyJ]

I think KEFs are a great alternative. They are something to keep in mind. The R series looks great. You might also take a look at the JBL Studio 500s, they look very nice. Some 590 floorstanders should sound very formidable. Ascend Acoustics also has some great speakers in that price range but no dedicated surrounds. for subs, SVS is a good choice. Some other high WAF but potent subs are the sealed Rythmik 15"s, the F15HP and E15, and also the Hsu ULS-15, I think those will give you a bit more performance for the dollar. If you can splurge on the subs, check out Funk Audio for some really gorgeous high performance subs. I am sure their speakers would be great too, although maybe a bit expensive.

 

[zieglj01]

I agree with shadyJ - take a look at the JBL 590 towers >>> the Studio 5
series in not the so-called average JBL. The Studio 5 bookshelf speakers,
have been compared with some high profile bookshelf speakers.

Studio 590 review
http://www.avhub.com.au/images/stories/australian-hifi/reviews/2013/2013-08/jbl-studio-590-loudspeakers-review.pdf

 

[copmagnet82]

So, I took Pyrrho's advice and listened to some speakers today and I came home very confused... I'm back to square one.

If you asked me 10 years ago how I felt about MartinLogan's and their tweeter I wouldn't say anything positive; they seemed overly bright and almost painfully annoying. I am shocked how within those 10 years my perception of sound has changed. This entire time I was comparing things to what my preferences were 10 years ago and I discounted ML's immediately . So, as I said, today, I listened to B&W CM9's once again, but this time I actually did a back-to-back comparison to ML EM-ESL's and ML Motion 40. Unfortunately, I couldn't listen to the Polk's nor the CM10's to have a back-to-back comparison of all of them, but here's where I'm at now.

B&W CM9:
When listening to music they had a nice bass, but all together they seemed sort of loose. I was actually a little disappointed. Now, when playing a movie through those, it was a total opposite, I was pleasantly surprised how the sound was very natural, I liked it.

ML Motion 40:
I was quite shocked by the fact that I actually really enjoyed the sound coming from those. Music and movie both sounded really good. There were parts of the movie that sounded a little brighter then on the CM9's, which I didn't like, but it wasn't too bad.

ML EM-ESL:
Again, totally shocked by the fact I liked ML's as much as I did. I really loved the sound of those. My only gripe is the fact that when you're not in the sweet listening spot, the magic is gone .

Again, I'm confused. I still want to listen to CM10's, and LSiMs, but for the money ML's are not a bad deal. Also, my problem of matching all speakers would be solved, as they can be had as a matching set. If I had to buy speakers today I would be torn between both of the ML's ...and the only reason why I would not pick the EM-ESL's is because they are very directional. What am I gonna do??? What am I gonna do???

 

[copmagnet82]

I'm going to check out the KEF's, too, since I have a dealer pretty close to my house.

hmmm... sometimes it's a good thing to open up and give other brands a chance

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Between Polk vs. B&W, I would get B&W for sure.

But the key is getting very good dual subwoofers and equalizing those subs with Audyssey XT Dynamic EQ or something equivalent.

 

[Pyrrho]

So, I took Pyrrho's advice and listened to some speakers today and I came home very confused... I'm back to square one.

If you asked me 10 years ago how I felt about MartinLogan's and their tweeter I wouldn't say anything positive; they seemed overly bright and almost painfully annoying. I am shocked how within those 10 years my perception of sound has changed. This entire time I was comparing things to what my preferences were 10 years ago and I discounted ML's immediately . So, as I said, today, I listened to B&W CM9's once again, but this time I actually did a back-to-back comparison to ML EM-ESL's and ML Motion 40. Unfortunately, I couldn't listen to the Polk's nor the CM10's to have a back-to-back comparison of all of them, but here's where I'm at now.

B&W CM9:
When listening to music they had a nice bass, but all together they seemed sort of loose. I was actually a little disappointed. Now, when playing a movie through those, it was a total opposite, I was pleasantly surprised how the sound was very natural, I liked it.

ML Motion 40:
I was quite shocked by the fact that I actually really enjoyed the sound coming from those. Music and movie both sounded really good. There were parts of the movie that sounded a little brighter then on the CM9's, which I didn't like, but it wasn't too bad.

ML EM-ESL:
Again, totally shocked by the fact I liked ML's as much as I did. I really loved the sound of those. My only gripe is the fact that when you're not in the sweet listening spot, the magic is gone .

Again, I'm confused. I still want to listen to CM10's, and LSiMs, but for the money ML's are not a bad deal. Also, my problem of matching all speakers would be solved, as they can be had as a matching set. If I had to buy speakers today I would be torn between both of the ML's ...and the only reason why I would not pick the EM-ESL's is because they are very directional. What am I gonna do??? What am I gonna do???

Take your time, and think carefully about what matters to you. And (as you indicate you are going to do in your next post), listen to some more speakers.

What you will likely find is that there is no perfect speaker, and so you should be deciding which virtues and which vices matter to you, and select accordingly. For example, you say you like the Martin Logan EM ESLs when you are sitting in the proper position, but not so much when you are not. Regarding that, there are two questions for you to ponder:

1. Will you normally be listening in the right spot, or will you mostly be moving around when listening to your new speakers? This will go a long way toward answering the question of how much this matters in your case.
2. When listening to the Martin Logan EM ESLs in a less than ideal position, how do they compare with your other choices? It does not matter if it is less good than the Martin Logans in the right spot if it is still as good as or better than the others in the wrong spot. Unless, of course, the fact that it changes bothers you, but would you rather have a speaker such that you cannot have the "magic" at all?

Since you like Martin Logans, you might want to find a Magnepan dealer as well, for a different type of thin panel speaker. And you might want to look for more conventional speakers that use ribbon tweeters to see how you like them. You should still be listening to other types of speakers, but if you like the sound of electrostatic speakers and Heil tweeters ("air motion transformer" or as Martin Logan calls it, "Folded Motion"), you may also like ribbons and planars.

I personally use these for my main 2 channel stereo:

Stage

They are easy enough to criticize. They are 3 ohms, not terribly efficient, are troublesome to set up (though the manual takes the guesswork out of this), and don't sound their best when one is out of the exactly proper position. But they still sound great when one is not in the ideal position, and they have a "magical" quality about them when one does sit in the exact right position. It is almost as if I have brought Ella Fitzgerald back from the dead to sing for me in my room. Some people would find them too much trouble to live with; I have never found anything I want more.

But back to your situation. You should pick the speakers that you like best, that have the virtues you require, and whose vices are such that you can live with them. Think long and hard about what qualities really matter to you, and buy whatever speakers you like, not what one of us likes. You will be listening to them, not us.

 

[canelli]

B&W CM9:
When listening to music they had a nice bass, but all together they seemed sort of loose. I was actually a little disappointed. Now, when playing a movie through those, it was a total opposite, I was pleasantly surprised how the sound was very natural, I liked it."

I fond the CM9s are very fickle about placement. B&W recommends ~20" from rear of speaker to the back wall and I have mine set even further out. Now that I have a dedicated room, I have the CM9s spaced even further out at over 30". In my opinion it makes a significant difference. I have been impressed with the sound stage and clarity of dialog for movies with this new setup.

On a side note, I have never seen a dealer with the CM9s spaced like I have them. Most of the time they are crammed back against a wall with numerous other speakers. I wonder if this has impacted some negative reviews of them.
AcuDefTechGuy is right about subs. I would say quality sub(s) have a dramatic impact and this goes double for watching movies.

 

[copmagnet82]

I have been impressed with the sound stage and clarity of dialog for movies with this new setup.

I agree with that, the movie on those sounded great, very pleasant to the ear.

AcuDefTechGuy is right about subs. I would say quality sub(s) have a dramatic impact and this goes double for watching movies.

Also agree with that. I was going to hold off on the subs for now due to money, but if I decide not to get CM10's/9's or LSiM's I will have money left over to do the subs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree with that, the movie on those sounded great, very pleasant to the ear.


Also agree with that. I was going to hold off on the subs for now due to money, but if I decide not to get CM10's/9's or LSiM's I will have money left over to do the subs.

If I had to decide which to upgrade first, I would add subs first.

 

[copmagnet82]

If I had to decide which to upgrade first, I would add subs first.

I decided to get subs, now, instead of waiting till later ...convinced the wife last night, that it is a necessity to get them now ...thanks for convincing me

 

[canelli]

Subs are a great addition

 

[copmagnet82]

just a little update

After spending about 2 hours a day listening to different speakers and annoying the crap out of the salesmen, it came down to two: B&W CM9 and ML Motion 40.

I really enjoyed the mids and lows on the B&W's although at times, depending on what I listened to, they sounded a little muffled, which I did not like. The Logans on the other hand, more often then not, seemed to be missing some of the punch that B&W's had, but at the same time the mid's seemed to be a little bit more clear, which could possibly be the result of the crossover being set at 500Hz/2600Hz for the Motions and 350Hz/4000Hz for CM9's, as well as the cones being made of paper/kevlar on CM9's and aluminum on the Motions. Ultimately, it came down to the tweeter. ML tweeter sounds so crisp and detailed; CM9's don't even come close to ML's IMHO ...and they are cheaper. With the money saved, I will get myself a sub or two to make up for the lack of the low end on the Motions, and I think I'm going to have a pretty nice affordable set-up .

 

[copmagnet82]

Just on a side note, I actually liked the ML Electromotion speakers a lot, but they are too directional and I won't always be in the ideal listening position. Also, sometimes they are almost too detailed. So for practical reasons, as well as a room-filling sound, I was forced to cross them off my list ...it simply would be too difficult to sit on top of each other to get the best possible sound, when we have people over for movie nights