Need help choosing 2 center speakers and 2 Powerful Subs

M

Mr.T

Audioholic
New construction 6K Sq. Ft. french provincial home in New York, overlooking the hudson river.
Customer with the help of our tech. advisor, has selected the following equipment for his 26X32 Ft. multimedia Room.

* Sanyo PLC-XF31N/NL multimedia LCD projector
* Pioneer VSX-59TXi A/V receiver
* Marantz PMD-970 professional DVD changer
* Sony SAT-HD300 directv HD set top receiver
* Yamaha MV-800 (8 channel mixer)
* Yamaha MSR-100(8) powered speakers
* Da-Lite 16X9 ratio wall Screen (permanent installed similar to the Picture)
* Sony RM-AV3100 remote control

The LCD projector will be installed on the ceiling with a Chief bracket.
A 75ft SVGA double shielded cable will run beyond the sheetrocking and onto a side wall outlet where an SVGA outlet will be mounted to allow a laptop computer hook up.

The Sony SAT-HD300 set top box connected to the satellite dish will output a DVI (digital visual interface) signal that feeds directly onto the Sanyo multimedia LCD projector

The Yamaha powered speakers(8) will be installed on the walls for a complete surround sound cinema style.
Each Powered Speaker will get a monoural signal from the Yamaha MV-800 (8) Channel Mixer.

The Yamaha MV-800 (8) channels mixer gets an auxiliar output signal from the receiver and will output a non stereo signal to the (8) speaker monitors.

The Pioneer A/V receiver will feed thru a component video signal from the Marantz DVD changer to the LCD Projector.
Also will route the stereo sound from the DVD changer to the center speakers and the subs thru the receiver.

The whole system will be controlled thru the Sony RM-AV3100 remote control with discrete codes.
I need your expertise in choosing (2) excellent sounding center speakers and (2) powerful subs. Customer is mostly interested in quality speakers. Thank you in advance for any help.
 

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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Mr.T said:
New construction 6K Sq. Ft. french provincial home in New York, overlooking the hudson river.
Customer with the help of our tech. advisor, has selected the following equipment for his 26X32 Ft. multimedia Room.

* Sanyo PLC-XF31N/NL multimedia LCD projector
* Pioneer VSX-59TXi A/V receiver
* Marantz PMD-970 professional DVD changer
* Sony SAT-HD300 directv HD set top receiver
* Yamaha MV-800 (8 channel mixer)
* Yamaha MSR-100(8) powered speakers
* Da-Lite 16X9 ratio wall Screen (permanent installed similar to the Picture)
* Sony RM-AV3100 remote control

The LCD projector will be installed on the ceiling with a Chief bracket.
A 75ft SVGA double shielded cable will run beyond the sheetrocking and onto a side wall outlet where an SVGA outlet will be mounted to allow a laptop computer hook up.

The Sony SAT-HD300 set top box connected to the satellite dish will output a DVI (digital visual interface) signal that feeds directly onto the Sanyo multimedia LCD projector

The Yamaha powered speakers(8) will be installed on the walls for a complete surround sound cinema style.
Each Powered Speaker will get a monoural signal from the Yamaha MV-800 (8) Channel Mixer.

The Yamaha MV-800 (8) channels mixer gets an auxiliar output signal from the receiver and will output a non stereo signal to the (8) speaker monitors.

The Pioneer A/V receiver will feed thru a component video signal from the Marantz DVD changer to the LCD Projector.
Also will route the stereo sound from the DVD changer to the center speakers and the subs thru the receiver.

The whole system will be controlled thru the Sony RM-AV3100 remote control with discrete codes.
I need your expertise in choosing (2) excellent sounding center speakers and (2) powerful subs. Customer is mostly interested in quality speakers. Thank you in advance for any help.

Can a Yam speaker, MSR 100 fit under the screen?
How about two SVS subs? You might need more in that huge room :D
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
So, the person has a 6,000 square foot home which costs well over $1M and is going with a 4x3 presentation projector from Sanyo?

Sigh - I wouldn't worry about the speakers to much unless his theater budget changes a fair amount to focus more on ... home theater instead of a board room setup.

A single, high quality center channel is what is appropriate as there is only signal available to run a single center channel and almost any top brand will provide it. If you really want quality: Meridian - B&W is awe inspiring as well in a theater.

If you want a perfectly balanced surround package, then the JBL Synthesis is top, top, TOP notch. It is what I have installed into the most discerning of our clients home theaters when money allowed. Nothing I have heard in a theater really has ever beaten it, though I haven't had the pleasure of doing a full blown Meridian theater either.

Now, for some of the best subs I know of: Velodyne Digital Driver series. Either two 15" or two 18" subs will shake the room to the floor, but only when appropriate and smooth as it should be.
 
M

Mr.T

Audioholic
BMX, I know what went thru your mind when you saw the specs on the Sanyo 4:3 aspect ration projector.
At first, the reason why we had chosen the Sanyo PLC-XF31N/NL was that the lady of the house didn't like 16:9 aspect ratio and had the husband convinced to go with a standars 4:3

Now they changed their minds and go with 16:9 and it was a toss up between a Canon and a Sanyo, but as we all know that Sanyo makes most of fixed installation multimedia LCD projectors for Canon except the lenses, we decided to go with Sanyo for a better contrast ratio and higher ANSI lumens and resolution. The Sanyo PLV-WF-10 delivers 1366X768 resolution - 4.000 Ansi lumens - 900:1 contrast ratio.
As for the center speakers and the subs we will definitely check out the JBL synthesis line of speakers.

Mtrycraft, the set up with have in mind is with 8 Yamaha MSR-100 powered speakers for both sides of the room and back. In the front alongside the screen we need 2 center speakers and 2 subs for down below the screen. The MSR-100 will be installed on the walls.
 

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plhart

Audioholic
Mr. T-

What are the conditions under which this room will be used? The light output on the projector is way too high for anything other than a brightly lit board room. And variation in the level of blacks may be quite poor if the intent is to watch movies.

-What has been done acoustically to the room? It doesn't appear that there is any abosrptive material to block axial reflections from the left and right walls (when looking at the pic of the right main).
-Does the owner intend on watching movies or just football games?
-Is the reverb time of the room known?
-Are the front left and right mains going to remain positioned as shown? If so you should be able to read a substantial dip at the half wavelength of the distance from the center of the speaker to the wall which it is pushed up against.
-Is the owner aware that with the Yamaha MX-100s on the sidewalls that he will hear only a direct sound, and not an immersive sound as intended in films?
-Is the owner aware that, because of the design intent of these speakers, that he he may only hear both both left and rights surround channels equally if he is exactly in the center of the room and if the channels are decorrelated (in stereo)? And even then that the sound can be heard to come separately from the woofer and the horn tweeter (because of the broad discrepancy in radiation patterns and power response between the woofer and the tweeter?)

We may be missing out on some of the relavent parameters here but from what we've got to go on this install looks like a professional, with experience in acoustics, equipment choice and measurement capability might need to to consulted.
 
M

Mr.T

Audioholic
plhart said:
Mr. T-

What are the conditions under which this room will be used? The light output on the projector is way too high for anything other than a brightly lit board room. And variation in the level of blacks may be quite poor if the intent is to watch movies.

-What has been done acoustically to the room? It doesn't appear that there is any abosrptive material to block axial reflections from the left and right walls (when looking at the pic of the right main).
-Does the owner intend on watching movies or just football games?
-Is the reverb time of the room known?
-Are the front left and right mains going to remain positioned as shown? If so you should be able to read a substantial dip at the half wavelength of the distance from the center of the speaker to the wall which it is pushed up against.
-Is the owner aware that with the Yamaha MX-100s on the sidewalls that he will hear only a direct sound, and not an immersive sound as intended in films?
-Is the owner aware that, because of the design intent of these speakers, that he he may only hear both both left and rights surround channels equally if he is exactly in the center of the room and if the channels are decorrelated (in stereo)? And even then that the sound can be heard to come separately from the woofer and the horn tweeter (because of the broad discrepancy in radiation patterns and power response between the woofer and the tweeter?)

We may be missing out on some of the relavent parameters here but from what we've got to go on this install looks like a professional, with experience in acoustics, equipment choice and measurement capability might need to to consulted.
plhart,
I beleive the owner intentions are to utilize this room mostly for weekends sport's watching with friends and DVD movies.
He also has intentions to use the projector with his Dell laptop hooking it up to his LAN system.

We have already tested the Sanyo projector with his laptop and eventhough 4.000 ANSI lumens seems a lot of brightness, it isn't when some of the ceiling light are left on. We were able to tweek brightness and contrast levels to obtain a perfect medium between video projection and data projection where leaving light on in the room gave us pretty decent results.

As for the acoustic panels, a company is scheduled to come in next week to do that job. Actually they're waiting for us to complete the installation of the wall brackets. The picture attachment that you see it's a pretty close example of the multimedia room we're working on.

plhart, stereo surround sound is not what the customer is looking for, as you know a mono audio signal is fed to the Yamaha 8 channel mixer and the powered speakers and obviously the results are non a surround stereo sound coming out of the speakers. The beauty of the 8 channel mixer though, is that you can adjust the sound output of each individual speaker and taylor the sound in the room just the way you want it.

One of the reasons we end up with this kind of sound installation is that, the customer had seen a similar installation in one of his friend's house who lives in Naples, Florida and was impressed with it, so he wanted the same thing.
Thank you for the technical explanations how a cinema surround sound should be and should have been done in this installation, but the customer is always wright and he is the one who puts food on my table.
 

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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Mr.T said:
Mtrycraft, the set up with have in mind is with 8 Yamaha MSR-100 powered speakers for both sides of the room and back. In the front alongside the screen we need 2 center speakers and 2 subs for down below the screen. The MSR-100 will be installed on the walls.
OK. Can you use the same speakers that is the front left right speakers as center speakers then?
 
M

Mr.T

Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
OK. Can you use the same speakers that is the front left right speakers as center speakers then?
Yes we can, and most likely we will also choose 2 Bagend Infra-18" subwoofers. Thank you for your help mtrycrafts!
 

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R

Redbone

Audioholic
Go for two high end REL's I think they just re-did the whole line but something in the range of the Strata III would more than fit the bill. I am confused to as to why this guy with that type of cash would choose mid grade equipment. If it were me I would go with Rotel and Focal Utopia Berryllium or Totem Acoustics and Marc Levinson. If he spent that kind of cash on his home $10k for a surround system seems adequate.

One more thought you cannot beat the M&K subs for slam and power especially in H/T. Two MX-350's would shake his walls down. If that is too much go down to the MX-150's :D


I would definately not make a final decision without checking out M&K.
 
M

Mr.T

Audioholic
I agree with you Redbone, we had tried to sway this guy way of thinking many many times without any results.

Actually for what I gather, this room will be mostly utilized by him and his guests on weekends and for his businness to keep tabs of what's going on during day hours thru a LAN system by his desk, which is set opposite to the wall screen.

His family already have a Panasonic 42" Plasma HDTV in the Den with a DVD Player and a surround sound system.
Thanks redbone, I will check out those Subs.
 

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M

Mr.T

Audioholic
We finally convinced the owner of the house to go with a total different system than what he originally had in mind and spend a lot more money or we would have no choice than cancelling the installation.

The system is the JBL Synthesis One:
 

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M

Mr.T

Audioholic
and these: which includes a Runco VX-1000d (very expensive) but he went for it, and a Rotel RSDX-02 DVD Player.
By the way the Runco has a resolution of 1280X720, a contrast ration of 2700:1 and 1.500 ANSI Lumens good stuff!!

Some of the equipment he had already bought from B&H Photo N.Y.C. will be returned tomorrow for a full refund. Thank you for your help as always,

Mr.T
 

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BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
That's awesome... ish.

:)

If you have NOT worked with Runco before, be very, very, VERY-ware!!!!

Runco has almost zero customer support in my dealings with them. They're product is almost always OEMed by another manufacturer and then they go in and hack things up. Every SINGLE product I have dealt with from them has failed and been extremely slow. It is what I call a Ferrari product. It's really nice, but needs to be in the shop six days out of seven, so you better make sure your client is aware of that before the purchase.

NOT that Runco stuff doesn't look great, it does. But, it just is not like a reliably high end Japanese car (NSX?)... The Runco stuff is just really sketchy. Plus, they're customer service is not, in my opinion, very responsive. They talk a good talk, yet don't play a good, or particularly fair, game in my experience. In fact, they were so bad that the highest end Crestron installations ($100,000+ A/V homes) were not allowed to include Runco product.

What is left?

How about the top of the line Maranta, Sharp, or if you want something that I consider premium - the Sim2 300HT which is much more stylish and has a phenomenal picture. It also allows PC's to be passed through pixel for pixel. So if the PC outputs 1280x720 native (which is should) it will not be touched by the projector and will look flawless on screen.

The Sony Qualia is also supposed to be phenomenal, though I have not personally worked with that.

I warn you on Runco. It sounds so good on paper, but it can bring you to tears when your client has problems with his system and Runco won't do anything to help you out after he spends a small fortune on the projector.

Hope that makes sense... any others who have installed and use Runco regularly want to chime in with thoughts?
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Oh - and check www.crestron.com (or www.amx.com) for remotes that are the status symbol of the wealthy. Check cribs on MTV or lifestyles of the rich & famous or the Sopranos. Crestron remotes are the definition of control and quality in a home.
 
M

Mr.T

Audioholic
Customer made his final desicion on the Sony Qualia SXRD Projector instead of the Runco for a woopping price of $ 22K (do you think he paid too much?) and he also picked up a Middle Atlantic Equip Rack. Now I only hope that he has enough money left over to pay for the installation, I'm just kidding!!

Thanks again guys for your help.
 

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BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Other than the remote to operate everything... That is a bomb setup. The real improvements at this point are:

1. Remote (once again a one touch remote that makes it so the kids and family can use it puts the system WAY up on WAF)

2. Room acoustics and treatment. Acoustical panels, hidden speakers, curtains, lighting...

3. Lighting, lighting, lighting. With a few years at a high-end custom installer and a few years at a high-end retail location I have discovered that the custom installer focussed and sold theater lighting much sooner than the retail dealer did. A minimum of one zone of lighting over every row of seating, add a zone for lighting over the screen area (so the lights at the front can be off, but you can still have enough to read the paper in the back). Wall sconces become another zone and add some dramtic lighting to the room. Plus, if there is a stair, then you use lighting under the stair that is dimable as well. That's a total of FIVE zones of lighting in a two row setup. Makes a big bang! You want enough lighting in there to make a room with dark walls and dark floors/ceiling to light up very well. About two-three times as many lights as are in your average room is required. They just get dimmed when not necessary.

4. If possible, run conduit now from the rack location to the projector location.

5. If using a Mid-Atlantic rack, make sure it is large enough to put one blank vented space between each piece of equipment in the rack. Overheating is a major, major issue in racks.

6. If you are going to put a fan in the rack, then put the rack in a different room than the theater. This is what I am doing in my house. The rack is in the basement, a second rack with the VCR/DVD/PS2 is in the family room. The rack stays cool and away from my 9 month olds sticky fingers, and the DVD is still right there to pop in Friday the 13th... or Barney, or whatever.

7. If you are using IR repeaters/IR equipment then don't put IR bugs on the front of the equipment. Bill the client an extra hour per piece of equipment and open up the gear and bury the IR emitter inside. It keeps the face of the equipment clean and avoids future hassle of the client knocking a emitter off and suddenly having a piece of hardware fail.

The equipment specified should make your client very happy - and you very jealous... as well as his neighbors. I will once again state: The remote is how he and his family is expected to use everything. If they have to remember more than about 2 steps to turn things on, or it isn't 100% reliable, then why did they spend the other $50,000+ on the theater? A Crestron RF remote starts at about $4,000.00 fully programmed and goes up from there.
 
M

Mr.T

Audioholic
BMXTRIX said:
Other than the remote to operate everything... That is a bomb setup. The real improvements at this point are:

1. Remote (once again a one touch remote that makes it so the kids and family can use it puts the system WAY up on WAF)

2. Room acoustics and treatment. Acoustical panels, hidden speakers, curtains, lighting...

3. Lighting, lighting, lighting. With a few years at a high-end custom installer and a few years at a high-end retail location I have discovered that the custom installer focussed and sold theater lighting much sooner than the retail dealer did. A minimum of one zone of lighting over every row of seating, add a zone for lighting over the screen area (so the lights at the front can be off, but you can still have enough to read the paper in the back). Wall sconces become another zone and add some dramtic lighting to the room. Plus, if there is a stair, then you use lighting under the stair that is dimable as well. That's a total of FIVE zones of lighting in a two row setup. Makes a big bang! You want enough lighting in there to make a room with dark walls and dark floors/ceiling to light up very well. About two-three times as many lights as are in your average room is required. They just get dimmed when not necessary.

4. If possible, run conduit now from the rack location to the projector location.

5. If using a Mid-Atlantic rack, make sure it is large enough to put one blank vented space between each piece of equipment in the rack. Overheating is a major, major issue in racks.

6. If you are going to put a fan in the rack, then put the rack in a different room than the theater. This is what I am doing in my house. The rack is in the basement, a second rack with the VCR/DVD/PS2 is in the family room. The rack stays cool and away from my 9 month olds sticky fingers, and the DVD is still right there to pop in Friday the 13th... or Barney, or whatever.

7. If you are using IR repeaters/IR equipment then don't put IR bugs on the front of the equipment. Bill the client an extra hour per piece of equipment and open up the gear and bury the IR emitter inside. It keeps the face of the equipment clean and avoids future hassle of the client knocking a emitter off and suddenly having a piece of hardware fail.

The equipment specified should make your client very happy - and you very jealous... as well as his neighbors. I will once again state: The remote is how he and his family is expected to use everything. If they have to remember more than about 2 steps to turn things on, or it isn't 100% reliable, then why did they spend the other $50,000+ on the theater? A Crestron RF remote starts at about $4,000.00 fully programmed and goes up from there.
BMX, our crew is very familiar with Crestron Products including media manager wall plates which 2 are already installed in the room, including CAT6, Mini SVGA, Mini Digital Coax, DVI,S-Video, and double mash audio cables. Crestron touch panel and RF remote will be the new MT-1000.

The Acoustic panels are already up, they did a fantastic job, especially in the crown molding in the ceiling.
Talking about room lighting, get a load of this, he has 35 recess lights in the room they all have individual faders mounted on a panel on the wall to be able to adjust lighting in the room just the way he wants it, plus a main ON/OFF switch.

As for the cooling fan mounted inside the rack is not necessary, the system is not on long enough to justify the need of a fan, also I beleive the Amps have their own cooling fans.

The Ceiling bracket for the Sony Qualia projector should be coming in this week including the JBL Synthesis equip.. I figure in a couple of weeks the system should be up and running.
If interested here are some reviews on the Sony Qualia.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/sony-qualia-004-user-reviews.htm

Thanks again BMX for your valuable help

Mr.T
 

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