Need assistance with first time speaker build

[driscollw]

I am currently looking to build my own speakers using prefab hardware. I have done some reading and still a little confused about a few things. I am looking to build a set of nice bookshelf speakers for a 2.1 setup. I am seeking to build a set that can take 150W/RMS getting as low of a frequency response as possible. I would like the lows to be punchy but, it doesn't have to shake my home. I listen to a lot of Country and Pop music if that helps anyone with answering my questions. I am looking to stay under $700 for the most part for just the bookshelves.

Here is a list of items that I am thinking on purchasing from Part Express.

269-300 36" Speaker Sealing Caulk
297-084 Morel CAW 638 6" Cast Frame Woofer
277-082 Morel CAT 308 1-1/8" Soft Dome Tweeter
081-425 #8 x 1" Deep Thread Pan Head Screws Black
260-170 Speaker Cabinet Jumper Wire 24" with 0.205" Disconnects
260-777 Penn-Elcom F1687 Rubber Cabinet Foot 1-1/2" Dia. x 3/8" H
095-810 Gold 12 AWG 1/4" Female Disconnect 5 Pair
081-422 #8 x 3/4" Deep Thread Pan Head Screws Black 365-250 Jasper Circle Jig Model 200
091-1245 Dayton BPA-38G HD Binding Post Pair Gold
260-142 Dayton XO2W-2.5K 2-Way Crossover 2,500 Hz
302-707 Dayton TWC-0.25MA 0.25 ft³ 2-Way Curved Cabinet Pair Maple


What size wire do I need to connect the speakers to the crossover ?
Did I choose the correct crossover to begin with ?
Will these speakers work correctly in the small box that I chose ?
Do I need to port this box or do I leave it sealed ?
Can I build a better speaker for around $700 instead of this setup?
What would you do ?

Also looking at the specification on the speakers I am a little unsure about what some of these thing mean.

*Power handling: 150 watts RMS/1,000 watts max - I know what is this
*VCdia: 3" I know what is this
*Le: .63 mH ????
*Impedance: 8 ohms I know what is this
*Re: 6.4 ohms ????
*Frequency range: 30-5,000 Hz I know what is this
*Fs: 43 Hz ???
*SPL: 86 dB 1W/1m ???
*Vas: .56 cu. ft. ??? Box size ?
*Qms: 2.20 ???
*Qes: .58 ???
*Qts: .46 ???
*Xmax: 4.25 mm ???

I am am currently reading more threads in hopes to get more info myself. Is there a website that anyone could suggest that will help me better understand what I am looking to do ?

Thank you in advance for your help and advice.

Bill

 

[Swerd]

Bill

Welcome to Audioholics. I want to encourage you to try building some speakers, it's very rewarding. I want to also warn you that your approach, as you have outlined it, will bring problems and frustration.

First of all, you need to learn your way around some concepts and terms. Buy or borrow this book Speaker Building 201 by Ray Alden. It will explain in detail what those specs mean and how you use them to answer your question about cabinet size and tuning. I haven't run the numbers for that Morel 6" woofer, but as a rough guess, 0.25 ft³ may be too small. And I am also unsure whether that driver works better in a sealed cabinet or with a port. Again, reading Ray Alden will show you how to work that out.

Second, forget the idea of using a generic off-the-shelf crossover for any DIY speakers. It will surely make your project fail. The whole benefit of DIY comes from choosing a woofer and tweeter that can blend well and custom designing a crossover to accomplish that smoothly. This is the hard part. It requires the right type of measuring equipment and some experience using it correctly. It takes time and money. If it is your intention to build some good sounding speakers just once, I'd strongly advise that you follow a DIY design thats already tried and tested. There are numerous very good designs for small 2-way speakers on the internet that I could recommend. Nearly all of them will be quite a lot less expensive than what you have listed above. That Morel woofer in particular is very expensive. I can think of several designs using excellent woofers costing roughly half its price.

Several other potential problems come to mind:

The Morel woofer's sensitivity (86 dB) is a lot lower than the 90 dB of the tweeter you list. You will have to add a lot resistance to pad down the tweeter until it matches the woofers SPL level. When you do that you run the chance of making the speaker sound dull. I believe the technical term is "sucking the life out of the speakers". Its better to combine a woofer and tweeter with closer SPL levels. They don't have to be identical, but you can find woofers that produce 88 dB.

Look at that woofer's frequency response curve, on the lower right side of this page. That resonance peak between 4 and 5 kHz looks like it might create audible noise unless it is filtered out properly by the crossover. An off-the-shelf 2500 Hz crossover with 2nd order roll-off slopes (12 dB per octave) will not get the job done. As a guess, you probably need 4th order slopes (24 dB/octave) and you might need to lower the crossover point closer to 2 kHz.

The Morel tweeter, at a quick glance, looks pretty good. Other than being a lot more sensitive than the woofer, it could work very well in a 2-way design

There are other problems, such as the lack of baffle-step compensation, but I think I'll stop here. If you are interested, I'll list some some DIY designs that you might consider building. They are tried and tested recipes that are known to sound excellent. If you are determined to use those two Morel drivers, I urge you to get some help in designing a proper crossover for them. Please do not waste those expensive drivers on a generic crossover.

 

[lsiberian]

Bill

Welcome to Audioholics. I want to encourage you to try building some speakers, it's very rewarding. I want to also warn you that your approach, as you have outlined it, will bring problems and frustration.

First of all, you need to learn your way around some concepts and terms. Buy or borrow this book Speaker Building 201 by Ray Alden. It will explain in detail what those specs mean and how you use them to answer your question about cabinet size and tuning. I haven't run the numbers for that Morel 6" woofer, but as a rough guess, 0.25 ft³ may be too small. And I am also unsure whether that driver works better in a sealed cabinet or with a port. Again, reading Ray Alden will show you how to work that out.

Second, forget the idea of using a generic off-the-shelf crossover for any DIY speakers. It will surely make your project fail. The whole benefit of DIY comes from choosing a woofer and tweeter that can blend well and custom designing a crossover to accomplish that smoothly. This is the hard part. It requires the right type of measuring equipment and some experience using it correctly. It takes time and money. If it is your intention to build some good sounding speakers just once, I'd strongly advise that you follow a DIY design thats already tried and tested. There are numerous very good designs for small 2-way speakers on the internet that I could recommend. Nearly all of them will be quite a lot less expensive than what you have listed above. That Morel woofer in particular is very expensive. I can think of several designs using excellent woofers costing roughly half its price.

Several other potential problems come to mind:

The Morel woofer's sensitivity (86 dB) is a lot lower than the 90 dB of the tweeter you list. You will have to add a lot resistance to pad down the tweeter until it matches the woofers SPL level. When you do that you run the chance of making the speaker sound dull. I believe the technical term is "sucking the life out of the speakers". Its better to combine a woofer and tweeter with closer SPL levels. They don't have to be identical, but you can find woofers that produce 88 dB.

Look at that woofer's frequency response curve, on the lower right side of this page. That resonance peak between 4 and 5 kHz looks like it might create audible noise unless it is filtered out properly by the crossover. An off-the-shelf 2500 Hz crossover with 2nd order roll-off slopes (12 dB per octave) will not get the job done. As a guess, you probably need 4th order slopes (24 dB/octave) and you might need to lower the crossover point closer to 2 kHz.

The Morel tweeter, at a quick glance, looks pretty good. Other than being a lot more sensitive than the woofer, it could work very well in a 2-way design

There are other problems, such as the lack of baffle-step compensation, but I think I'll stop here. If you are interested, I'll list some some DIY designs that you might consider building. They are tried and tested recipes that are known to sound excellent. If you are determined to use those two Morel drivers, I urge you to get some help in designing a proper crossover for them. Please do not waste those expensive drivers on a generic crossover.

I must disagree with starting by building a crossover. Take the Recession Buster kit which has satisfied many folks. You can get all the parts for a pair including treatment, screws, connectors, crossover and drivers for less than 100 bucks. Toss in the wood and it's a great intro build.

Mine sound great and much better than anything in my budget that I've heard. Plus it has my own craftsmanship.

Take it in stages. Start with something simple like the box and work your way up to crossovers. That's my opinoin.

 

[annunaki]

I like lsiberian's approach here. Pre-designed kit with crossover. Experiement with enclosure build, gain experience. The most one is out with the recession buster is about $100.00 or so. Once the experience is gained and a better understanding achieved, then attempt something a bit more in-depth.

Even with the RB design, great performance can be had for the minimal investment.

 

[driscollw]

Thank you very much for all your responses. I recently purchased a set of TSBL 6.5" 2-way Bookshelf Speakers and have be OK with the sound but, looking to build a little better speaker.

I am also looking for a better receiver to use. I am currently using a Yamaha RX-V365 and it seems to do OK but, keeping my eye open for a Yamaha RX-797. Unless you have some incite as to another unit that might be better ? It seems there are a lot of home theater units but, not too many 2 channel ? Am I missing something or should I be researching theater units and just using them in a 2.1 setup ?

I have no problems soldering and wiring up speakers so building a crossover shouldn't be a problem if need be. I would be very grateful if you could send me some of the DIY designs that you have. I am not stuck on bookshelf speakers but, since you said there are speakers half the price that can do very well it just opened some doors.

Thanks everyone for your help as you saved me a lot of cash, frustration, and a poor sounding speaker. I will be ordering that book today to further my understanding of speakers in general.

 

[Swerd]

I have no problems soldering and wiring up speakers so building a crossover shouldn't be a problem if need be. I would be very grateful if you could send me some of the DIY designs that you have. I am not stuck on bookshelf speakers but, since you said there are speakers half the price that can do very well it just opened some doors.

Thanks everyone for your help as you saved me a lot of cash, frustration, and a poor sounding speaker. I will be ordering that book today to further my understanding of speakers in general.

The Ray Alden book is also available from Madisound and Parts Express. I've tried to read Vance Dickason's book and his writing style is too hard to follow. Alden does a better job presenting things clearly. I personally ignore the speaker designs published in these books because they are now or will be soon out of date in the sense that some of those drivers will be hard to find for sale. Also I prefer to stick with designs that I have heard or are designed by people I am somewhat familiar with.

The DIY designers, who have good websites, that I would recommend are:

Dennis Murphy -- He is my personal favorite - see more below.

Lou Coraggio -- Lou Coraggio has some very interesting designs, although I've never heard them. His woodworking skills look very good. That's always something to strive for. His Cryolite design has been very popular.

Roman J Bednarek -- Like Dennis Murphy, Roman seems to like paper coned drivers and textile tweeters. The more I read of his stuff, the more interested I am in his designs. He seems to like drivers that I have heard and know that I like. I am especially interested by his Asterion design.

John Krutke -- John Krutke, on the other hand, loves metal coned drivers. He also has a lot of test data that can be interesting, although some of it is above my head. The SR71 and Seas L18 / 27TBFCG both look interesting. I've heard the L18 design and liked it.

I recently heard a P12 Bookshelf design that uses a Morel MDT-29 tweeter and an Aurum Cantus F130F1 woofer that sounded excellent. I noticed that Pjay Smith’s web page provides crossover details for this speaker, but says nothing about cabinet dimensions and port tuning.

Wayne Jasche -- He has some articles on his site that helped me learn quite a lot when I was starting. See his article titled "Finding the Optimum Crossover Frequency". His designs tend to use less expensive Dayton drivers.

All of the above write well and present reliable info in a form that I can easily understand. All of them test their designs carefully both by computer modeling and by real world listening. All of these guys, except Wayne Jasche, will answer your questions if you email them, or if you post on the Parts Express Tech Talk board. This forum is the best DIY speaker builder hangout.

I've built 2 of Dennis Murphy's designs (the MB27, a 2-way for about $320 a pair, and the CAOW1, a 2-way for about $450 a pair) and I can highly recommend them both. (Please note, these prices are out of date now.) I built the CAOW1 in November 2006, and it my favorite small 2-way. The MB27, built for my nephew, is a less expensive version of the CAOW1. Both are small cabinet 2-way ported speakers with a 5¼" midwoofer and a 1" (in the MB27) or a ¾" (in the CAOW1) dome tweeter. Both use 2nd order crossovers which Dennis believes contributes to a more open and spacious sound. I was actually impressed by the unexpected bass response of these small speakers. The CAOW1 can deliver an honest 50 Hz, the MB27 (and its cousin the MBOW1) delivers an honest 55 Hz.

Dennis also showed me what baffle step compensation does for small speakers. A lot of commercial small 2-ways fail to address this problem at all! To learn what BSC is see this link.

The tweeters (Hiquphon OW1s) that are in the CAOW1 and the MBOW1 designs are the best tweeters I've ever heard. They now cost $220 a pair! That's why Dennis also offers the MB27 that use tweeters that go for about $60 a pair. Please note that a MB20 design may still be listed, but its tweeter is no longer available.

The bottom line with Dennis Murphy's designs, is that I like the way he "voices" his designs. I like their sound. Your taste may certainly vary from mine. Not surprisingly, his designs also have quite flat frequency response curves. I have met him, he lives in my area. He is an amateur musician (piano and violin), and he has the best listening acuity I have ever witnessed. He has about 25 years experience in DIY audio, and his expertise in crossover design is highly valued in the DIY world. I have come to trust all of his audio choices.

The vendors I've used are Madisound, Parts Express and Zalytron.

Good luck with your project, and keep us informed.

 

[Guiria]

I have built designs from Dennis Murphy and John Krutke and can attest that their designs are very good.

I can only second the opinion of using an already documented design.

Whatever you decide good luck.

 

[Loren42]

I like lsiberian's approach, too.

A more expensive system can be found in Vance Dickason's The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, which has a project for a small set of studio monitors using Scanspeak drivers (available at Madisound).

Scanspeak should be a better set of drivers than the Morels. Maybe others could comment on Scanspeak.

These look like they would be a very good set of bookshelf speakers and would be close to your budget. Probably closer to $800 if you can swing it.

 

[driscollw]

I have been doing a lot reading and there is much I need to learn. I just went to parts express and saw speaker cabinets, speakers, and some crossovers and thought "this can't be all the difficult to do". I simply need more knowledge so I need to take a step back and regroup. I don't have a problem making my own cabinets but, If I could find a really nice prebuilt ones I would just pay the premium to do so. I have to reach a certain WAR (Wife Acceptance Rating) before I will be allowed to put speaker cabinets I built in the living room. lol !

I guess I am looking to assemble my own speakers and not so much build. I would like to be able to choose some really nice items and assemble them myself to know I'm getting something of really good quality. I honestly think I am ignorant to the fact that I honestly don't know what sounds good. I have my opinion but, I don't know if I can tell what quality my audio is. I do understand the fact that MP3's are missing a lot of data !! lol and are no where near the original in quality.

Right now I am kinda thinking I need to start a little smaller and work my way up like you guys are suggesting. I fear spending a lot of money on speakers that won't sound good, have no idea why, and give up thinking bigbox retailers have better sounding speakers.

I am researching some kits but, what do people do with the prebuilt cabinets on PE ? If you guys say you can't just throw in some speakers in a cabinet why are there so many options for cabinets ?

Thank you all again !

 

[jliedeka]

I would also recommend some of the designs on HTGuide.com. I'm in the process of building a pair of Modula MTs and some Natalie Ps. They use metal drivers from the Dayton Reference series which give a great bang for the buck. These designs can also be built using prefab cabinets from parts express. You basically just need a router, a screwdriver and a soldering iron if you go that route.

The cabinets have different internal volumes so you need the right sized cabinet for the woofer. The difference between the curved and square version is partly aesthetic and partly to minimize standing waves inside the cabinet.

Jim

 

[Swerd]

I guess I am looking to assemble my own speakers and not so much build. I would like to be able to choose some really nice items and assemble them myself to know I'm getting something of really good quality. I honestly think I am ignorant to the fact that I honestly don't know what sounds good. I have my opinion but, I don't know if I can tell what quality my audio is. I do understand the fact that MP3's are missing a lot of data !! lol and are no where near the original in quality.

Right now I am kinda thinking I need to start a little smaller and work my way up like you guys are suggesting. I fear spending a lot of money on speakers that won't sound good, have no idea why, and give up thinking bigbox retailers have better sounding speakers.

I am researching some kits but, what do people do with the prebuilt cabinets on PE ? If you guys say you can't just throw in some speakers in a cabinet why are there so many options for cabinets?

The prebuilt cabinets sold by PE and by Madisound are both very good. The ones with curved sides are attractive, but those curved walls can make it more difficult to place a crossover board on the floor of the cabinet. It depends on how many parts are in a speaker's crossover.

Some of the kits sold by PE and Madisound are also very good. I hadn't mentioned them in my previous post.

For what it's worth, one of the designs I had mentioned, John Krutke's (Zaph Audio) SR71 is available through Madisound as a kit. You can order parts with preassembled crossover boards alone or with cabinets. It isn't cheap, but it might sound excellent.

Its hard to know, without listening, what you like and don't like. I can tell you that with DIY speakers, if you consider the price of the parts alone (not including cabinet), you will find them similar in overall quality to speakers sold commercially at retail prices 3x to 5x higher. So at Madisound the SR71 kit parts sell for $389 a pair. They should compare to speakers selling retail for roughly $1200 to $2000 a pair. So even with the cabinets at $640 a pair, these speakers might be a very good deal. With the good DIY designers, you can expect the crossovers to perform better (smoother and flatter across the midrange) than with most commercial speakers.

 

[Loren42]

I have been doing a lot reading and there is much I need to learn. I just went to parts express and saw speaker cabinets, speakers, and some crossovers and thought "this can't be all the difficult to do". I simply need more knowledge so I need to take a step back and regroup. I don't have a problem making my own cabinets but, If I could find a really nice prebuilt ones I would just pay the premium to do so. I have to reach a certain WAR (Wife Acceptance Rating) before I will be allowed to put speaker cabinets I built in the living room. lol !

I guess I am looking to assemble my own speakers and not so much build. I would like to be able to choose some really nice items and assemble them myself to know I'm getting something of really good quality. I honestly think I am ignorant to the fact that I honestly don't know what sounds good. I have my opinion but, I don't know if I can tell what quality my audio is. I do understand the fact that MP3's are missing a lot of data !! lol and are no where near the original in quality.

Right now I am kinda thinking I need to start a little smaller and work my way up like you guys are suggesting. I fear spending a lot of money on speakers that won't sound good, have no idea why, and give up thinking bigbox retailers have better sounding speakers.

I am researching some kits but, what do people do with the prebuilt cabinets on PE ? If you guys say you can't just throw in some speakers in a cabinet why are there so many options for cabinets ?

Thank you all again !

I would strongly urge you to consider a kit or a design that is already worked out by someone with experience.

One problem with an ad-hoc approach is that the cabinet, drivers, and crossovers all work very closely together.

While some retailers offer pre-made cabinets and pre-made crossovers, unless these components come as a kit that were designed to work together from the start, you will not get to where you want to be. These things sell because people are willing to buy them without understanding the inter-dependencies.

Crossovers are a unique component. That is, you can't buy a universal crossover because they must be designed for the specific set of drivers you intend to use in the cabinet you designed. Change anything and the crossover changes, too. Ask me how I know and by the way - anyone want to buy two Parts Express 3-way crossovers (slightly used)?

 

[driscollw]

I have done a lot reading and have decided that I need to set some limitations. There is just so many options that I will have to have a better understanding of what in the heck I'm doing. I have a lot forum posts and have decided that I am hoping to do one of these two projects.

Jim Holtz Mini Statements
I would need a better receiver to run these other than my RX-V365 ? Or am I mistaken ?

or

Tritrix MTM

I'm thinking that the Tritrix would be a better option since it's geared more towards 8ohm instead of the Mini Statements. The Mini Statements are very nice ! I am also happy that I can get the Tritrix kit at PE ready to build. This will give me some experience on building crossovers and I will be able to complete a project with pretty good results. Hopefully this will drive me for more complicated projects. I have read in a few forums that there is an Austrian company that offer CNC speaker cabinet kits ? Anyone know who this company is ? I haven't used a router in quite some time but, I am a fan of cabinet kits if they are good quality. Where can I find this kits and/or who makes them.

Thank you all for your help, this is a very nice forum to be apart of as I haven't been made to feel stupid for asking questions !

 

[driscollw]

I am liking the SR71 Kit, I little pricey but, not bad. I'm sure they sound real good. Do you think someone as new as I am will be able to handle the Tritrix project ? I mean the cabinet comes prefab, drivers come in a kit, I just have to do some soldering and finish the cabinet. I was reading that some builders use a bedliner roll-on product to paint there cabinets. I am just looking to paint them black. Doesn't have to be shiny, just something that will look half decent.

I'm getting excited about starting this project. I will keep everyone posted along the way ! Thanks again !

 

[Swerd]

In my previous post, I forgot to mention Curt C's and Jim Holtz's designs. I've not heard their work, but they have an excellent reputation among other DIY builders, and at least one designer I know (Dennis Murphy) says that both are good. Dennis has heard the Statements and said he was very impressed.

The Tritrix MTM and also this link, especially at PE's sale price for the kit, is hard to beat. I think it is a great way to start DIY. I've been very curious to hear that design. Because it employs transmission line design for the bass, it should be excellent. My tower speakers, see below, share that type of design.

Yes, I think the cabinet kit should be a fairly easy assembly. Did you see the video that PE has on the bottom of this page? I strongly advise getting some clamps. Those shown in the video are somewhat expensive, others are available for less. The video did say at one point that you should let the glue set overnight. If you use standard yellow wood glue (Titebond or other brands, don't bother with Titebond II or III), clamping for at least 30 minutes is enough to remove the clamps and go on to the next step. Overnight can't hurt, but it isn't required.

The Mini Statements will cost more, probably sound better, and the cabinets will be much more difficult to build. As you noticed, at 4 ohms they may be harder to drive.

Keep us posted, especially if you go with the Tritrix MTM, I think many others might be interested.

 

[highfigh]

I have been doing a lot reading and there is much I need to learn. I just went to parts express and saw speaker cabinets, speakers, and some crossovers and thought "this can't be all the difficult to do". I simply need more knowledge so I need to take a step back and regroup. I don't have a problem making my own cabinets but, If I could find a really nice prebuilt ones I would just pay the premium to do so. I have to reach a certain WAR (Wife Acceptance Rating) before I will be allowed to put speaker cabinets I built in the living room. lol !

I guess I am looking to assemble my own speakers and not so much build. I would like to be able to choose some really nice items and assemble them myself to know I'm getting something of really good quality. I honestly think I am ignorant to the fact that I honestly don't know what sounds good. I have my opinion but, I don't know if I can tell what quality my audio is. I do understand the fact that MP3's are missing a lot of data !! lol and are no where near the original in quality.

Right now I am kinda thinking I need to start a little smaller and work my way up like you guys are suggesting. I fear spending a lot of money on speakers that won't sound good, have no idea why, and give up thinking bigbox retailers have better sounding speakers.

I am researching some kits but, what do people do with the prebuilt cabinets on PE ? If you guys say you can't just throw in some speakers in a cabinet why are there so many options for cabinets ?

Thank you all again !

The PE cabinets are solid and look great. If you find that the driver needs a slightly smaller cabinet than the calculations call for, you can mount pieces of material (MDF, etc) internally to take up the excess internal volume. A few cubic inches won't kill the design but much too large won't give you what you're looking for.

PE and Madisound can model drivers for you, to let you know how well they'll work together. They can also e-mail the results to you.

 

[Alex2507]

I like lsiberian's approach here.

Like that's not gonna go straight to his head.

I got past the fear of solder with a Dayton BR-1 kit. Swerd helped and there is a Dennis Murphy crossover mod for it. Somehow I had big plans for that but never got to it. It did allow me to treat the inside of the cabinet without having to build it from scratch and apply a finish to it. They sound better than speakers costing 10x as much.

Just kidding. I like the speakers fine.

 

[highfigh]

Like that's not gonna go straight to his head.

I got past the fear of solder with a Dayton BR-1 kit. Swerd helped and there is a Dennis Murphy crossover mod for it. Somehow I had big plans for that but never got to it. It did allow me to treat the inside of the cabinet without having to build it from scratch and apply a finish to it. They sound better than speakers costing 10x as much.

Just kidding. I like the speakers fine.

My friend bought 5 of those and he said he likes them, too. He ran a local speaker company for a while and did some good things, but it was before the driver selection and software was as good as it is now. It was also before PCs, so doing the calcs was a PITA.

 

[lsiberian]

Like that's not gonna go straight to his head.

I got past the fear of solder with a Dayton BR-1 kit. Swerd helped and there is a Dennis Murphy crossover mod for it. Somehow I had big plans for that but never got to it. It did allow me to treat the inside of the cabinet without having to build it from scratch and apply a finish to it. They sound better than speakers costing 10x as much.

Just kidding. I like the speakers fine.

So you have to bring up the past again.

I've got no ego to stroke, people have despised me since childhood.
I just laugh it off.