Need Advice using older Canton Speakers

[sbrooks45]

Hello,

I am setting up a new home theater from scratch. Room is 17x27. I already own what I believe is a really decent audio system, but it is about 15 years old. I know I need a new receiver, I'm planning on purchasing an Onkyo TX-NR709.

My current speakers are Canton's:

L/R Towers = Fonum 600
CNTR = CT 20 CM
S/W = AS 30
Surround L/R and Center = Nestor 403

I got good bargain prices on these back in the day, two units were floor models, Fonums were on discontinued closeout, etc., and I still have well over $2000 invested in speakers. The Sub was a $900 unit by itself (I got it for $550) These speakers weren't bottom offering from Canton, but they weren't top end either. Good, solid, monitor-quality, but not over the top exotic.

Here is my question for all of you, and I welcome all feedback.....

I was only planning on upgrading the receiver for $500. I don't have an additional $2500 laying around to update all the speakers. The local audio store is advising me to go into a $1000 home theater in a box, because all my stuff is "obsolete", and he claims it will sound better than my old speaker setup.

So, my gut reaction is....this guy is an idiot right? Even though my speakers are old, they are really, really nice sounding speakers. The Cantons are studio-monitor-quality units. And although they are by no means the top end of what Canton made, they are still audiophile-realm units. When I bought them, I listened to them side by side with some of the best back then, ADS, B&W, etc. I thought the Cantons were very comparable with speakers costing twice as much. I really felt they were a bargain, considering the sound they made for the price, and listening to them today, I really feel that they still hold their own. I think they still sound awesome. However, I haven't been in a "real" audio store in about 10 years, but even the "nice" stuff that they have in listening rooms at Best Buy doesn't sound any better than my current systems. I obviously need to take a trip to the city to listen to new gear.

Am I really that out of touch that today's home theater's in a box can sound better than a full suite of monitor quality, 4 ohm speakers that are 13 years old? I obviously haven't driven the 1.5 hours to the city to listen to one of the new HTIB systems, so that is on the docket. But, I would like to hear other folks reaction to this guy's recommendation, especially if you have the years of experience to form your opinions on.

So, do I scrap the old Canton's, or do I get a new receiver and have a great system, even by today's standards?

Couple other follow on questions: I also thought about keeping the L/R towers, keep the sub, keep the center channel, but maybe doing a dipole on the back walls of the room. The 3 Nestor 403 speakers that I have are really big, and for aesthetics, I just don't know if I can stomach them being that large. I was thinking of Axiom QS 8's or similar. So, question 2 is would any of you mix brands and put non-Canton dipole's up for surround? Would that be a problem with timbre matching? If not, my other alternative, would be buying some Canton on-wall speakers, since Canton doesn't make dipoles. I may still have a timbre matching issue though, since Canton's new stuff may sound different, but Canton always tended to have pretty matched timbre up and down their product line, over many years, so there is hope!

Thanks in advance for any and all advice!

 

[Pyrrho]

The salesman is either an idiot or a liar. Do not scrap those speakers for a home theater in a box; that is just crazy stupid. Canton made some really good speakers, and probably even their low end models of that era are better than most home theater in a box systems.

Although speaker design and implementation has improved over the years, the fundamentals are the same as they always were, and a good sounding old speaker is fine.

I strongly advise considering a different store that has salespeople who are more honest or more knowledgeable. Do not trust ANYTHING those people tell you at that store, because you KNOW that they cannot be relied upon for telling you the truth.

Now, the problem you might have is that your speakers are 4 ohms, and many receivers are not that happy driving them. So I recommend that you buy a receiver with preamp outputs for all channels, and be ready to buy a separate power amp to drive them, particularly if you listen at high levels.

As for the surround channels matching the front, many people will tell you that it does not matter much, and go ahead and mix things however you want. And although the rear matching the front matters less than the front three matching, I have gone to identical speakers all around and I will never go back to having different speakers in different locations. "Less important" does not mean that it makes no difference at all.

So, I recommend that you reconsider your idea of replacing just the rear speakers, and either replace them all (which would be very expensive to go better than what you have), or use them all, which is what I would do with a budget of only $1000 or so. With that money, I would spend somewhere around $500 for a decent receiver from a reputable company (e.g., Yamaha, Marantz, Denon, Pioneer, etc.) that has preamp outputs for all channels (as well as the other features I needed or wanted, and I would look for closeout sales on discontinued models if I did not require whatever the latest gizmo is), and consider the rest for amplification. (I do recommend that you only consider a receiver with the latest surround decoders for the audio formats on BD (Blu-ray), regardless of whether you have a BD player yet or not.) On the other hand, surely you have been using something to drive the speakers already; why not use it as a power amp, if needed, to save some money?

 

[Pyrrho]

From looking at your post again, part of it struck me as significant:

...

I was only planning on upgrading the receiver for $500. I don't have an additional $2500 laying around to update all the speakers. The local audio store is advising me to go into a $1000 home theater in a box, because all my stuff is "obsolete", and he claims it will sound better than my old speaker setup.
...

A salesman's job is to part the sucker (I mean, customer) from as much of his money as possible. You were only wanting to spend about $500, but he was hoping to get you to spend twice as much. So there we can see a strong motive for lying to you about your speakers, though I am not ready to jump absolutely to that conclusion, as it is possible that he is just an idiot.


Looking for a sale or closeout deal, $500 will buy a pretty good receiver, and unless you need some special feature or more power, more money on a receiver would get you very little benefit.* And if you need more power, the better way to go is to buy a $500 receiver with preamp outputs on all channels, and then buy a power amplifier or power amplifiers that meet your needs, which should still be usable the next time you decide to upgrade the receiver for whatever new formats or gizmos you feel the need to have.

_______________________
*I was using a $600 receiver with speakers that retailed for more than $6000, and it sounded great. I replaced the receiver with one that retails for $1700 (because I wanted the features), and unless I engage a feature that affects the sound, it sounds the same as the $600 receiver. Now, if my speakers were difficult to drive, it would make more of a difference, as the new receiver can put out about twice the power of the old one, but the old one could cleanly drive my speakers louder than I ever wanted to hear them, so the extra power is completely useless and irrelevant to my sound.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

+1 to what Pyrrho said.
I'd like to add this:
Your speakers rated at 4ohm impedance and 88db efficiency at least on paper present tough load on any receiver especially in your rather large 17x27 room.

You best bet would be to get Receiver with multichannel pre-outs like Onkyo 707 or Yamaha RX-V665 and add good amp from emotiva.

Option b) only and only if you could guarantee very cool and ventilated environment for receiver is Onkyo TX-NR808 - currently sells for $529.99 original factory refub condition of reputable dealer: http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR808/Onkyo-TX-NR808-7.2-Channel-3-D-Ready-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html#!specifications

808 could drive your Cantons pretty loudly, but I'd still start saving money for external amp

 

[smurphy522]

Well as some have stated the salesman that tried to sell you a HTIB system made it quite clear he (and possibly the store) is not justified to serve you.

Just remember: A single salesman experience does not a store make.

Anyhow one of the most important things I get from your current speakers (and BSA nailed it as well) are that they are 4 ohm rated. This will be important in your selection of a receiver. My suggestion is similar to BSA's. Get a mid tiered receiver (older model will net you more features at the same price point) from a reputable dealer. Audioholics own store offers good deals on high quality offerings: like this Marantz SR 6005 or the Yamaha RX-A800. Even a refurb unit from Accessories4less will get you a Std 1 Yr warranty from the OEM. Onkyo, Marantz, Yamaha, Denon, and some others (I won't play favorites) will get you an amplifier section that will drive those speakers to decent levels. I would highly suggest a receiver with full pre-amp (RCA) outputs so that you can upgrade to a larger separate amp which will be more capable of driving those Cantons (or any future replacements) in that large room. Along with the 4 ohm rating of your speakers (which are challenging for any amplifier: alone or in a receiver) you will require quality amplification in order to get loud sound in that large of a room.

Now since no one, especially in a forum, can tell what loud enough is you are safer going the receiver route (with expansion capability - think RCA outputs for all 7.1 channels) then, if deemed necessary, you can then venture into a separate amp(s) to give additional POWer to your home theater. Hey who knows you may well be satisfied with a mid line receiver's 80+ watt/channel offering!

Also it is important that you enable the bass management in any receiver you choose (and do it properly). Many newer (less than 5 yrs old) have auto set-up or calibration capability like Audyssey (Denon, Onkyo, Denon, Etc) or YPAO (Yamaha). This proper set-up will allow more receiver power to be used for the mid to high frequency sounds and route the lower (power hungry) bass frequencies to your subwoofer.

I would also point out that $500 will barely get you into the decent quality receiver line. It will get you there but just barely and in last years line up.

Pretty much any receiver get (in a quality mid line offering) will give you instant satisfaction. Having the option of upgrading (pre-outs all channels) will assure your investment is just that, an investment.

You already did it, many years ago, in your speaker choice.

Good luck!

Oh yeah - don't put any receiver in a closed cabinet - on 4 ohm speakers they will be space heaters. You must properly ventilate any cabinet with a receiver in it.

 

[Pyrrho]

...

Just remember: A single salesman experience does not a store make.

...

True, but it does mean that the store hired either a liar or an idiot, which tells us the management messed up as well. And it is not unheard of for management to pressure salespeople to lie in order to make more and larger sales, so it could very well be a sign of standard practice at that store. Of course, it may not be standard practice, but one does know that, at a minimum, the management is not careful about hiring only competent and honest salespeople.

So, one should never trust what they say, and should learn things from some other more reliable source or sources.

I personally would avoid the store as much as reasonably possible, as I rather dislike being fed misinformation. I would not absolutely rule out doing business with them, especially if there were no other decent options, but I would be extremely careful about it.

 

[sbrooks45]

Thanks!

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. Everyone confirmed my own thoughts.

I am keeping all the speakers for now, and I will go with a new receiver in the $500-$900 price range. Something like the Onkyo 709, Denon AVR 2312, etc.

I like the Marantz 6005 that several suggested, but the fact it can't play from a home media server or home network, may be a deal breaker for me. It's really hard to choose the best unit in that price range!

This system started as a 2 channel audio system, with a Carver receiver in 1991. It evolved to a home theater setup by adding speakers and buying an Onkyo TX-DS797, which is plenty strong enough for my listening levels, but just needs updated because it lacks modern features like HDMI, etc.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-A2000-7-1-Channel-Audio-Receiver/dp/B003XDU484/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1315339993&sr=1-1

 

[smurphy522]

sbrooks45 - I would only point out that while the Denon 2312 is a good quality receiver it only has subwoofer outputs which limits expansion. It also has an unknown video scaler and only one HDMI output. I would suggest last years 3311ci over the 2312ci (for a $50 premium). The 33 series nabs you at least pre-amp output. Link to Amazon here.

Also compare it to Yamaha's offering; the A2000 which BSA pointed out. The equiv. Onkyo is 709 or 809 (biggest difference between them is: better video processing (one of the best in the industry at this price point and stronger Amp section).

Video scaling may not be a feature you require if you already have a great source (like an Oppo BR player or equal). However if you plan to feed the receiver a cable/satellite box output then you can benefit from video scaling. I believe the Denon does an OK job as does the Yamaha A-series (probably on par with the Onkyo 7 series). There are some review kicking around the net so Google these all and see what you turn up. Audioholics probably covers some of it too!

Dual HDMI outputs are handy if you are (or plan to) have a projector. I see no mention of that but then again, there was no mention of wanting a network feature either.

Again good luck - you are on the right path.