Need advice on whole home audio system, especially in-wall and in-ceiling speakers

[paberry]

After saving for a decade and designing for the last two years, my wife and I are building a nice home. We want to have music (mostly jazz, classical and classic rock) fill the house with just a few mouse/iphone/ipad clicks. The home will be sizable and include main, upper and finished basement/terrace levels. The floorplan is fairly open and rooms are sizable, with ceilings around 12' average. The builder is indicating we are nearing the low voltage wiring phase and need a plan. We will be talking to a few local home entertainment & installation companies but want to do homework first.

So I am interested in suggestions, including manufacturers and model specifics, for how to get ample, high quality sound in most rooms and hallways. Excellent sound quality is the priority to the extent that the budget allows. I assume I will have 20+ speakers and want full range sound in the larger rooms. Except in the terrace level, virtually all of the speakers will need to be in-ceiling or in-wall equipment. The terrace has less interior designer pickiness and can have wall mounted speakers if that provides more bang-for-the-buck. Ideally, most listening areas would have a 2.1 or possibly 5.1 sound split versus mono through each speaker. Also, regarding amplification, does it make sense to have most of the music source/servers and amplifiers in one location even though many of the speaker wire runs would be 50 - 100ft?

Eventually I will have a home theater setup down in the terrace level and also a nice two-channel in a room on the main level and may want them to tie in via automation also. First things first though and that is to specify the whole home audio functionality. The budget for this phase is around $7K - $8K. Thanks in advance for insights and suggestions.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I'm confused about what your budget is supposed to include. A pair of GOOD in-wall speakers will run $300+ per pair, so half your budget is already gone and not one wire has been put in place and nothing has been installed.

I will say that you should plan on all of your equipment being in a storage area in your home. It should be well ventilated and provide room for growth. I have just under 20 speakers throughout my home setup and it is utilizing two 6' tall equipment racks to run everything smooth with amplification to all speakers, switching, and control. (I also am running video)

So, you do need a plan of attack, and you will want to consider that 5.1 audio requires a full A/V receiver and digital source delivery and wiring for that (with labor). If it takes two guys one hour to prewire each stereo zone back to your head end, then it will take them three hours to do 5.1. If you want a subwoofer in the rooms (2.1) that have stereo, then you will need to add a subwoofer amplifier for those rooms ($$$) and an in-wall or in-floor subwoofer to achieve that. It could easily run $800+ for just the in-wall subwoofer, especially if sound quality is important.

My initial reaction is that $8000 MAY be enough to get the wiring in place using 14 gauge speaker wire to 10 different locations throughout your home with one of those areas being a 5.1 surround zone to handle audio and video. If you want a in-wall subwoofer in a few rooms, then plan for that and budget for that accordingly.

My recommendation: Don't be to firmly set in your budget, but set a goal for what you want to achieve and find out pricing after that point. You really want to consider the impact that in-wall/ceiling speakers has on other rooms in your home as the walls bleed sound to adjacent rooms quite easily. You do NOT get more bang for your buck with bookshelf speakers, but for the additional money you pay, you do get better sound. In-wall speakers can sound good, but never sound excellent unless you are prepared to spend $1,000+ per speaker. So, set your expectations accordingly. I would go with 8" 3-way in-wall speakers in as many rooms as it makes sense for. Get them at ear level so they aren't broadcasting upwards to other rooms and so that they aren't reflecting off all the hardwood floors I imagine you intend to install (echo chambers).

You want to consider whether you want to pull your phone out every single time you want to turn a room on/off or just adjust the volume for the room you are in up a few notches. Instead, you may want to consider adding wiring to each room/location for a keypad of some sort which allows for local control of volume, source selection, and perhaps basic source control.

My typical setup includes a 12-button keypad in each room that allows anyone from your parents to your kids to turn the room on/off easily and to adjust volume. I add iPad/iPhone control as well to allow further control if they desire it.

At the end of the day, the wiring is important. Not a 'little' important, but is the best thing to fully implement prior to drywall going into place. Your price TRIPLES for labor ($$$) if walls need to be cut later and wires put in place later and then the drywall will still need to be repaired ($$$). So, pre-drywall is the time to get every wire you want, and every wire you MAY want put into place. Don't just think of what you want now, but think of what you MAY want in a few years. Understand that CAT-6a STP cabling is likely to be the gold standard for at least a little while for high bandwidth content delivery. Understand that wireless is not a reliable solution, and moving forward, wireless may never be a reliable solution for everything. Remember that putting a wire in place does not mean that you use that wire, but it means that you have that wire available if you ever want to use it in the future. If it costs $250 to wire stereo into one room today, it will cost you over $1,000 to run that same wiring after drywall is in place. So, four rooms for the price of one right now.

Unless I was very serious about adding a subwoofer to certain rooms, I would not plan on wiring for a subwoofer, but I would use 8" speakers in those rooms and a decent amplifier to run them.

If your total budget for this installation is $8,000 and needs to include everything, then I would expect that you aren't very likely to get it unless you buy cheaper gear, do a lot of work yourself, and accept that the audio will be good, but not great.

 

[paberry]

BMXTRIX and the forum,

Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response. To clarify, the prelim budget figure I noted ($8,000)was a ballpark for just the in-wall speakers, any in-wall subwoofer and maybe the amps to power just those items. My overall low voltage prelim budget for wiring, security system, wifi, moderate HVAC and lighting controls, a couple TVs and some audio equipment is around more in the $75K - $80K range, and could be a little higher if needed.

I have assumed that good in-wall/in-ceiling speakers would run about $250 each or maybe more. I assume an in-wall sub with amp might be $1,000. For the midrange frequencies I want to power the overall system with excellent clean power, so I assume for 20+ speakers that will cost about $2,000 or more. My favorite currently owned piece of AV equipment is my ATI 2505 power amp (simply incredible) and I know ATI makes a 12 channel power amp (Outlaw makes one also as I'm sure many other companies do).

I am completely on board with your suggestion to go all-out on home pre-wiring while we are in the framing stage - cost effective future-proofing. So I expect we will wire every room that might have sound, TV and A/V controls with Cat6 and probably also 12-gauge speaker wire. As noted, some speaker wire runs may go 100 ft. The main AV equipment room will be an unfinished space of around 10x10 in the basement/terrace level that can be vented to the outside. I anticipate a big rack or two similar to what you have described.

Regarding the in-wall and in-celing speakers, I will probably need to do a combination of the two, with the majority being in-ceiling. Aside from soundstage/directional issues I am curious if there is a typical difference in performance of wall vs ceiling speakers for the same $$ range. Regardless, I am interested in hearing what brands and models of speakers you and others suggest which would create an exceptional value in my target price range, providing accurate sound and a relatively full range. For the room where most listening and family TV watching will occur (keeping room), I might spend a little more than the average on the speakers since quality will be more important there. So pricier speakers in this 5.1 setup are a consideration.

The stealth subwoofer issue is a challenge. I mostly want it for TV/movie watching in the keeping room and for adding some foundational support to everyday music listing. Based on the viewing/listening location expectation I believe it makes the most sense to have it in the keeping room as part of the 5.1 daily system. It would have a big volume to fill. That room adjoins a kitchen, breakfast area, dining room, living room and front foyer in a relatively open floorplan with the overall rectangle measuring about 40ft x 45ft. I am hoping I can create an architectural-and-wife approved subwoofer for that listening area that underpins some of the bottom range possibly missing from 3-ways that might go -3dB around 50hz. One person mentioned an in-wall sub by Earthquake called the Thor that claimed to produce decent volume and hit 19Hz. but I am unfamiliar with Earthquake and the name conjures up images of Honda Civics cruising the strip with 1000watts of awful bass vibrating everyone's windows. I listen to a lot of jazz with accoustic base and want my whole-home audio to have tight musical bottom end to the extent possible. I hoped specialist companies like Rel made good in-wall subs. Perhaps other noted subwoofer-skilled companies (Velodyne and Paradigm come to mind) have quality offerings at a workable price. I have a Paradigm PW2200 in-room sub in my current home setup and it is a workhorse and was a great value.

Regarding controls, I anticipate having a system as you describe that has keypads or tablet-style controls (perhaps Control4) so individual zones can be adjusted for on/off/volume/source. A local installer has suggested an 8X8 matrixed server system by Leaf that can take in 8 separate inputs and send any source selection to up to 8 zones. The Leaf matrix is a pricey piece of equipment ($6,400) but presumably creates flexibility while eliminating some redundancy of other equipment. I am still on the very front end of learning any of this home automation, centralized A/V stuff, so I recognize I am only marginally competent to even discuss the subject. But it is cool to see how far the industry has progressed since my last A/V purchase/research around 2002 and the everyday functionality improvement possible with the new house.

Thanks again for the earlier post and in advance for any follow-ups to this clarification.

 

[lsiberian]

If you want to do an in-wall sub I'd at least look into IB subs. At this stage you could probably get it wired up and setup pretty easily.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Alright, your budget is realistic.

Now, you can go with B-stock (read: USED) Crestron gear for far less than other systems, but it is truly the wiring which you should focus on.

1. Don't just guess on this, make a list of your rooms and make a list of what you want in each room and where you want it.
2. Where you want it in the room is critical - it can't really be changed after drywall is up without significant cost, but if you may want a couple of options, then let installers know and they can make a loop between locations (ie: wall to floor wiring for your option)
3. Figure out your subwoofer(s) now. Velodyne jumps to mind... SubContractor Series - Subwoofers - You really want to figure out in-wall or in-floor ahead of time and get things in place and this one is a tougher option.
4. Understand that speakers won't go in until after drywall and painting is done typically.
5. In-wall speakers bleed sound into adjacent rooms more, but get listening at proper ear height which can open the soundstage and preserve imaging. In-ceiling speakers bleed sound between floors more, they work well with stereo in a limited area, and tend to hotspot a bit more. But, the actual sound quality is about the same.
6. I've used speakers from SpeakerCraft, B&W, Niles, Boston, and Sonance... I keep going back to Monoprice for my general listening speakers. Their 8" 2-way in-ceiling stuff sounds good and is cheap enough that you can just throw a set up to try and compare them to another more expensive brand before you dish out thousands of dollars.

Something like this would be a cut above your typical in-wall and better for your surround zone:
CInema LCR2 | Sonance

But, it will cost a pretty penny for those. Still, it will use the same wiring.

7. Unless rooms are being acoustically treated and using really good bookshelf speakers, you aren't going to hear a difference between 12 gauge and 14 gauge wiring in your home.

8. Amplifiers are all over the place in quality, but Rotel makes some good stuff IMO. There are certainly other brands out there, but the quality will cost. Most of all - it's something which can be addressed at a later point.

9. Be aware that the typical keypad now, and in the future, will probably run fine on cat-5e cabling.

10. Video distribution adds a new twist and a potentially significant price tag, but may enhance the lifestyle within the home significantly. Worth consideration at least.

 

[twoeyedbob]

I'm way way out of my depth here...it did occur to me
However.. that i've seen some lovely (very very small) rel 8"
Sub's recently that could easily be hidden under couches or other furniture


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[Hookedonc4]

Checkout James loudspeakers QX series.

http://www.jamesloudspeaker.com/index.cfm?page=inwall