Need Advice on System for Music Only

[2ManyShoes]

I need advice on a reasonably priced 2.1 receiver (or amp/preamp combo) for the following purposes, and boy have I been getting the run-around:

- Play CDs in 2.1 (i.e., stereo plus a sub)

- Connect to my iPod

This project started when I tried to add a subwoofer to my 20-year old system to listen to classical music (mostly Wagner operas, which have massive bass demands). Unfortunately, there's no sub-out on my old JVC receiver. My research tells me I either need to replace the receiver or do some hot-wiring I'm not comfortable with in order to add the sub. After 20 years, I guess it's time to replace it anyway. And if I'm going to buy a new one, I might as well get one that will connect with my iPod Classic.

Can anyone recommend a good, receiver (say, under $500) that will do these two things extremely well, and which doesn't (for my purposes) waste resources on surround and theater elements?

Thanks for any help!

 

[slipperybidness]

NAD C326BEE, NAD Integrated Amplifier
NAD C355

check out one of these, but to add a sub I think you would have to use the pre-out and use the xover on an active sub

 

[2ManyShoes]

check out one of these, but to add a sub I think you would have to use the pre-out and use the xover on an active sub

Thanks for this. Could you unpack your subwoofer comments a little? I.e.., do you mean that these units have a dedicated pre-out for a powered sub? Not sure what you mean by using the crossover for an active sub.

Also, just out of curiosity, what makes you place the NADs (both at $550) over the Azur 650A, which they're letting go for $499?

 

[bikemig]

If you want a 2 channel receiver that has a direct digital usb connection for your ipod (i.e., one that bypasses the dac in the ipod), there aren't a lot of options but the Onkyo TX 8050 (around $300) is a pretty good one. It also has multiple digital inputs and can be networked which will help if you decide to use computer based playback (which frankly is a better way to go than an ipod). Like most stereo receivers, it does not have bass management features (other than a sub out) and so you have to use the crossover on the sub. With the NAD, you'd have to add an ipod dock and those vary in quality.

The HK 3490 is also a good alternative but you'd have to add an ipod dock.

 

[2ManyShoes]

If you want a 2 channel receiver that has a direct digital usb connection for your ipod (i.e., one that bypasses the dac in the ipod), there aren't a lot of options but the Onkyo TX 8050 (around $300) is a pretty good one. It also has multiple digital inputs and can be networked which will help if you decide to use computer based playback (which frankly is a better way to go than an ipod). Like most stereo receivers, it does not have bass management features (other than a sub out) and so you have to use the crossover on the sub. With the NAD, you'd have to add an ipod dock and those vary in quality.

The HK 3490 is also a good alternative but you'd have to add an ipod dock.

Thanks. The TX 8050 does look pretty close. What degree of sound quality Would I be losing compared to the refurbished NAD or the Cambridge 650A?

 

[sholling]

In my opinion you should get past the mindset that using an A/V receiver (AVR) for 2-channel is a waste of resources. Economies of scale simply make them a better bargain than stereo receivers and they let you avoid having to live with the limitations of stereo receivers - especially for 2.1. For example the only stereo receiver that I know of that includes bass management is the $700 Outlaw Audio RR2150 but it lacks a S/PDIF port.

With lower end stereo receivers you're stuck with the choice of sending a full range signal from the subwoofer jack to the sub and a full range signal to the speakers, or using the subwoofer's crossover (if it has one) to handle bass management. Since (if you're in the US) you can pick up a solid re-certified 100wpc AVR that provides bass management and room correction for half the price of the outlaw it seems like a better investment.

But if you are stuck in stereo receiver mode then Onkyo's TX-8050 is within your budget and as mentioned above includes network functionality. Just keep in mind that its sub-out jack is, as I said above, is just an unmanaged full-range port.

Thanks. The TX 8050 does look pretty close. What degree of sound quality Would I be losing compared to the refurbished NAD or the Cambridge 650A?

Other than room correction options (defeatable) one receiver should sound like the next. The manufacturer's goal should be to add or subtract nothing to/from the sound.

 

[2ManyShoes]

In my opinion you should get past the mindset that using an A/V receiver (AVR) for 2-channel is a waste of resources. Economies of scale simply make them a better bargain than stereo receivers and they let you avoid having to live with the limitations of stereo receivers - especially for 2.1. For example the only stereo receiver that I know of that includes bass management is the $700 Outlaw Audio RR2150 but it lacks a S/PDIF port.

With lower end stereo receivers you're stuck with the choice of sending a full range signal from the subwoofer jack to the sub and a full range signal to the speakers, or using the subwoofer's crossover (if it has one) to handle bass management. Since (if you're in the US) you can pick up a solid re-certified 100wpc AVR that provides bass management and room correction for half the price of the outlaw it seems like a better investment.

Other than room correction options (defeatable) one receiver should sound like the next. The manufacturer's goal should be to add or subtract nothing to/from the sound.

That's very helpful, especially your point about economies of scale. Can you (or anyone else) recommend a few more models in that price range (refurbished) that do have bass management and room correction?

 

[2ManyShoes]

OK, I've spent pretty much all day on this, and I've narrowed it down to the following:

Used Onkyo TX-NR709 (it has direct iPod connection via USB, bass management, room correction, fully networked, and seems to have corrected significant QC issues with the 708); and

New Polk PS (12-inch powered subwoofer); or

Used Emotiva Ultra 12 (powered sub)​

I came close to choosing the Marantz SR-6005, but decided that (all other things apparently being equal) I might as well get the network connectivity.

Comments? Thanks!

 

[GranteedEV]

Can anyone recommend a good, receiver (say, under $500) that will do these two things extremely well

My recommendation would be this NAD measured here.

but if you insist on staying under $500, then this marantz:

Which is unmeasured. =(

which doesn't (for my purposes) waste resources on surround and theater elements?

not unless you want to raise your budget.

 

[2ManyShoes]

My recommendation would be this NAD measured here.

but if you insist on staying under $500, then this marantz:

Which is unmeasured. =(



not unless you want to raise your budget.

I had actually looked at that Marantz, but it appears to have exactly the same feature set, minus the network connectivity. Why would you rank it above the Onkyo?

 

[GranteedEV]

I had actually looked at that Marantz, but it appears to have exactly the same feature set, minus the network connectivity. Why would you rank it above the Onkyo?

The corners are rounder?

Sometimes you just pick the product you feel more comfortable with personally, and it has nothing to do with features.

 

[slipperybidness]

Room correction should be pretty much useless in a 2ch stereo setup. Bass management may be a different story.

I chose the NAD over the Cambridge only b/c I have some experience with the NAD and none on the cambridge.

Recievers typically have a dedicated sub pre-out (LFE), but the NADs I reccommended only have the full bandwidth pre-out. Meaning you would have to use the xover on the sub to manage bass rolloff. Not a big deal, but could be a little pain in the *** if you think you will have to change the settings regularly.

Good points though to not rule out a 5.1 reciever even though you only need 2.1. The day may come that you want to repurpose it to 5.1.

If you look at older recievers, I highly reccommend the Yamaha Natural Sound line. I think for music these are the best (reasonably priced) recievers I've heard, better than my pioneer elite.

 

[slipperybidness]

Also, I believe the NADs have a 3.5mm stereo jack that you can use for your ipod, so you may not necessarily need the dock.

 

[sholling]

OK, I've spent pretty much all day on this, and I've narrowed it down to the following:

Used Onkyo TX-NR709 (it has direct iPod connection via USB, bass management, room correction, fully networked, and seems to have corrected significant QC issues with the 708); and

New Polk PS (12-inch powered subwoofer); or

Used Emotiva Ultra 12 (powered sub)​

I came close to choosing the Marantz SR-6005, but decided that (all other things apparently being equal) I might as well get the network connectivity.

Comments? Thanks!

I have an older TX-SR707 (from A4L) and it's been a good little receiver. The main thing with Onkyos is to give them room to breath. Onkyo includes beefy power supplies and solid amplifiers and those generate a lot of heat and it's important to place it where air can circulate. That means if you place it in a rack you'll need an inch below and 3-4 inches open above to allow air to circulate. Mine lives in an enclosed cabinet so I put a fan on the back of the cabinet to pull out the warm air and it works fine. My understanding is that the latest Onkyos have built-n cooling fans but I haven't confirmed that.

I also have an Emotiva Ultra 12 subwoofer and in a smallish room it's a good little sub for music. I wouldn't use it for movies because I'm not getting a lot of output from it below 30hz but it's very good well below 40hz which covers most music. It did benefit from a bit of EQ and sub EQ isn't cheap but that may just be my room. That said I would definitely take the Ultra 12 over a Klipsch sub. But something to be aware of is that they had a batch go out with a bad capacitor (stuff happens). Emotiva fixed mine under warranty (I paid return shipping for the plate amp) but I don't know how buying used effects your warranty.

 

[nosferatu]

i have 2ch. NAD setup with a NAD tuner and NAD CD player. if you gonna stay 2ch only with intentions on listen to CD an ipod /Tuner i would say NAD is the way to go . you can pick up older units that are great . Now not every speaker will work great with NAD so look in to that. or you could pick up older nad stereo receiver .

 

[bikemig]

I'm with GranteedEV; the NAD T747 for $599 from Spearit is a fine AV receiver for a 2 channel set up. That's what I'm using with a pair of PSB Image T-6 speakers. I use a mac mini for both movie and music streaming using the digital input on the NAD receiver. It is a very solid combo. By the way, if you want to use your ipod using one of the analog inputs, there are two things you want to think about. One it is probably a better idea to use the line out (using a dock connector to minijack connector, Fiio makes one) than the headphone out. It will give you a better signal. Also if you get an AV receiver like the NAD, you probably want to avoid any analog inputs since the bass management works in the digital domain. So you could get something like the Pure Ipod Dock which runs $100: Amazon.com: PURE i-20 Digital Dock for iPod/iPhone with Hi-Fi Quality Audio and Video Output: MP3 Players & Accessories. It bypasses the ipod's dac and you can connect to your AV receiver via a digital input.

Edit: while an av receiver can be a fine choice for a 2.1 set up geared towards music, so can a 2 channel stereo or integrated amp. They're not as competitive price wise as AV receivers and they lack bass management but if you run towers that may not matter. The Onkyo 8050 I mentioned earlier will connect your ipod directly via usb, has multiple digital inputs, can stream music via ethernet, and is 4 ohm stable for $300. That's not bad.

 

[2ManyShoes]

A New Thought

First of all, thanks for all the massively helpful responses. I've been reading and thinking some more and had a thought: Could I use the multiple power amps in a surround-soud AVR to bi-amp my speakers? I have some nice old Paradigm towers (nowhere near top of the line, but I like them--I'll update this with the model number when I get a chance).

That would actually get me some use out of the "redundant" components. But would it work? I always thought of bi-amping as using two stereo amps, rather than outputs for surround speakers.

 

[2ManyShoes]

Edit: while an av receiver can be a fine choice for a 2.1 set up geared towards music, so can a 2 channel stereo or integrated amp. They're not as competitive price wise as AV receivers and they lack bass management but if you run towers that may not matter. The Onkyo 8050 I mentioned earlier will connect your ipod directly via usb, has multiple digital inputs, can stream music via ethernet, and is 4 ohm stable for $300. That's not bad.

The folks at Spearit actually steered me away from the T747 and towards the C356Bee. Their take is that bass management is irrelevant for my needs--the crossover on the sub will take care of its frequencies, and they think sending the full signal to my speakers (old low-end Paradigm towers) will produce a better overall mix anyway.

That's got me a little confused--I thought bass management was my #1 issue.

 

[bikemig]

Some subs are designed to work exactly the way the people at Spearit suggested with a full range going to the main speakers. You might want to look at REL subs for example. The REL T3 is on sale for $400: Amazon.com: REL T3 BLACK Acoustics T3 Series 8", 150W Subwoofer: Electronics. You might want to look at the manual for that sub; REL is a very well respected sub manufacturer and it has a different ideas than most in how to blend a sub in with the mains.

 

[3db]

The folks at Spearit actually steered me away from the T747 and towards the C356Bee. Their take is that bass management is irrelevant for my needs--the crossover on the sub will take care of its frequencies, and they think sending the full signal to my speakers (old low-end Paradigm towers) will produce a better overall mix anyway.

That's got me a little confused--I thought bass management was my #1 issue.

I disagree with their assessment. Although a sub has filtering capabilitities, iIts much easier to set it up on a receiver and use a receiver's built in room eq to adjust the levels of the sub and mains for a proper balance.