Need a push: Cinema 60, or Denon x3700,x3800, x4700

PHANofPHUNK

PHANofPHUNK

Full Audioholic
I do have another thread along this line but this one is more specific. I'm looking to replace a Anthem MRX 510 with one of the following:
Marantz Cinema 60, Denon x3700 or X3800, or X4700..

My goal is to upgrade to HDMI 2.1, but also try to get as close to the sound quality of the Anthem as I can. These are all in my price range but i could also spend a little more. again, I'm really interested in the best sound possible. we listen to a lot of music!

Are there other brands I should consider? The Marantz has a handsome price of $799, w/ 5 year warranty. plus 3 hdmi inputs that can handle 4k@120hz.

Thanks a ton for your help!




 
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larson92

Audiophyte
Go with the Marantz.

I recently bought a Denon x4800H, and I really like it—but even with a fantastic Black Friday sale it was twice the price of the options you have listed. I chose the Denon over several other brands that I tried (stay away from Onkyo/Panasonic and don’t go with Sony if you like to tweak anything yourself vice just trust Sony to do all the tweaking for you).

Marantz is basically a Denon with “higher quality”, and since sound quality is your main objective I would go with Marantz.

Note that the Denon supports multiple subs with separate feeds to each (up to 4), but Audyssey in the Denon doesn’t work with multiple subs unless they are all fed the same signal. It will look like it works — but if you look at the “target” response for any sub beyond the first, you’ll see that it’s wonky. My solution is to Audyssey with the subs set to “normal” (feed us the same signal) but then switch them to “directional.”
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I do have another thread along this line but this one is more specific. I'm looking to replace a Anthem MRX 510 with one of the following:
Marantz Cinema 60, Denon x3700 or X3800, or X4700..

My goal is to upgrade to HDMI 2.1, but also try to get as close to the sound quality of the Anthem as I can.
I have not seen such an easy to answer question for a long time. It is indeed very specific when you say you want it to get as close to......Anthem.....!!

There are two facts that are highly likely relevant to the audio performance of the MRX520:

1) Relatively high distortions relative to other Denon and Marantz AVRs (since those are on your short list).
2) The fact that Anthem mission statements say"

Based on these known facts, I would say if you can stretch your budget, the X4800H is the winner for you, if not, the X3800H should be good, but not the Cinema 60 unless it costs less than the X3800H. The comparable Marantz to the X3800H is the Cinema 50, so if in Europe the Cinema 50 may be a better choice.

Now take a look of the sources of the facts I listed above:

On Anthem sound quality signature:

Frequently Asked Questions | Anthem® (anthemav.com)
None of our components are designed with a "sonic flavor" other than playing exactly what's in a recording. Unfortunately with pop CD mastering, pushing levels way into overload regardless of how much distortion this adds is all too common. Recordings of acoustic instruments with minimal or no processing during mastering sound more natural, therefore they are a much better test of how natural-sounding the playback equipment is.
So, if you like the "sound quality" of your MRX520, it is most likely that you like the sound quality of everything else especially the quality of the source contents you normally listen to, not the AVR itself as the MRX520 would just stay out of the way.

On fidelity, say based on distortions + noise:

Note that at one point, the one year newer model, the MRX520 ranked last of all AVRs measured on ASR, even below the NAD T758 V3.

However, at 0.06% distortions+noise (1 kHz test signal, 5 W into 4 ohms, or 2.5 W into 8 ohms, is still going to be below the threshold of audibility for normal people. Caution: that's for 1 kHz test signal, at higher frequencies such as 5 kHz, 10 KHz, expect distortions will go up but should still be well below 1% so that will still likely not give the impression that it has a different "sound" that others.

Note: The graph below compared the power amp distortions plus noise. If used as preamp/dac, the MRX520 would have ranked much higher, not far behind the Denon AVR-X3700H and the MRX-1120.

For more details, please read the review and the complete test results:

Review and Measurements of Anthem MRX 520 AVR | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

1706017314562.png



These are all in my price range but i could also spend a little more. again, I'm really interested in the best sound possible. we listen to a lot of music!
If you can live with Denon's style, and if you are in North America, go with Denon and avoid Marantz unless you don't mind paying a heavy premium for the look. If in Europe the price differences between the two name brands won't be much unless $200 more just for the name tag and aesthetic is still too much for you.

Are there other brands I should consider? The Marantz has a handsome price of $799, w/ 5 year warranty. plus 3 hdmi inputs that can handle 4k@120hz.
Onkyo RZ50 looks viable to me too. If you have only one sub, the MRX740 has great specs and performed very well on the test bench, probably among the best of any current AVRs.
 
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PHANofPHUNK

PHANofPHUNK

Full Audioholic
I have not seen such an easy to answer question for a long time. It is indeed very specific when you say you want it to get as close to......Anthem.....!!

There are two facts that are highly likely relevant to the audio performance of the MRX520:

1) Relatively high distortions relative to other Denon and Marantz AVRs (since those are on your short list).
2) The fact that Anthem mission statements say"

Based on these known facts, I would say if you can stretch your budget, the X4800H is the winner for you, if not, the X3800H should be good, but not the Cinema 60 unless it costs less than the X3800H. The comparable Marantz to the X3800H is the Cinema 50, so if in Europe the Cinema 50 may be a better choice.

Now take a look of the sources of the facts I listed above:

On Anthem sound quality signature:

Frequently Asked Questions | Anthem® (anthemav.com)


So, if you like the "sound quality" of your MRX520, it is most likely that you like the sound quality of everything else especially the quality of the source contents you normally listen to, not the AVR itself as the MRX520 would just stay out of the way.

On fidelity, say based on distortions + noise:

Note that at one point, the one year newer model, the MRX520 ranked last of all AVRs measured on ASR, even below the NAD T758 V3.

However, at 0.06% distortions+noise (1 kHz test signal, 5 W into 4 ohms, or 2.5 W into 8 ohms, is still going to be below the threshold of audibility for normal people. Caution: that's for 1 kHz test signal, at higher frequencies such as 5 kHz, 10 KHz, expect distortions will go up but should still be well below 1% so that will still likely not give the impression that it has a different "sound" that others.

Note: The graph below compared the power amp distortions plus noise. If used as preamp/dac, the MRX520 would have ranked much higher, not far behind the Denon AVR-X3700H and the MRX-1120.

For more details, please read the review and the complete test results:

Review and Measurements of Anthem MRX 520 AVR | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

View attachment 65450




If you can live with Denon's style, and if you are in North America, go with Denon and avoid Marantz unless you don't mind paying a heavy premium for the look. If in Europe the price differences between the two name brands won't be much unless $200 more just for the name tag and aesthetic is still too much for you.



Onkyo RZ50 looks viable to me too. If you have only one sub, the MRX740 has great specs and performed very well on the test bench, probably among the best of any current AVRs.
Thanks a ton! Oh boy, I would love the mrx540. Side note, I have the 510, not 520.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
How many HDMI 2.1 input ports are needed here? The X3700H and X4700H each have only one of them but each has nine amps. With seven, the Cinema 60 has the least amps and feature set, though it has the three HDMI 2.1 ports. The X3800H also has nine amps and the best feature set, though the X4700H had the separate 2CH Playback speakers setting that now starts with the X6800H on new models. Only the X3800H supports the Directional Subwoofer mode when using multiple subwoofers and can support four of them.

If you want best bang for buck, the Onkyo TX-NR7100 has nine amps and Dirac. It has three 40Gbps HDMI 2.1 ports and three HDMI 2.1 24Gbps ports. It supports Airplay 2 and Chromecast for those wanting to stream to it using a Smart device. Onkyo’s web setup feature is great and actually essential for setting up HDMI 2.1 features for each port. It does not feature pre outs like the TX-RZ50. The TX-NR7100 can currently be had new for as low as $699.

But, when you are happy with what you have and are familiar with it, spending more money to stay within that line and not have to learn the ins and outs of another line can be worth every penny.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks a ton! Oh boy, I would love the mrx540. Side note, I have the 510, not 520.
My typo, but regardless, the test results should apply to the 510 as well as they was not much change going from 510 to 520, the major change, for the better, is from the 520 to 540
 
D

dolynick

Audioholic
Thanks a ton! Oh boy, I would love the mrx540. Side note, I have the 510, not 520.
I'm curious why it's not on your list then. Price presumably? I paid for my 540 8k in Canadia bucks, but I'm sure that still converted out to well above your $799 USD figure. If I were buying to use as a primary amp/driver for the mains, I would definitely look at the 740 instead too.
 
PHANofPHUNK

PHANofPHUNK

Full Audioholic
I'm curious why it's not on your list then. Price presumably? I paid for my 540 8k in Canadia bucks, but I'm sure that still converted out to well above your $799 USD figure. If I were buying to use as a primary amp/driver for the mains, I would definitely look at the 740 instead too.
The price! Can't pay that much for a avr. I took a risk with the 510 as a refurb and it has been problem free. That was around $800 7 years ago. Used 540's are pushing $1,300. Can't take that risk with out a warranty.
 
D

dolynick

Audioholic
The price! Can't pay that much for a avr. I took a risk with the 510 as a refurb and it has been problem free. That was around $800 7 years ago. Used 540's are pushing $1,300. Can't take that risk with out a warranty.
Understandable. It wasn't really on my radar either until I noted they were on discount over XMas, plus the shop I called cut me a little extra discount. It was then only a little more than the price of a Marantz Cinema 70 or Stereo 70 I was considering for that space anyways. It sounds like the asking price of the Marantz is higher up here than it is for you as well though.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The price! Can't pay that much for a avr. I took a risk with the 510 as a refurb and it has been problem free. That was around $800 7 years ago. Used 540's are pushing $1,300. Can't take that risk with out a warranty.
If you are going to use it as an AVR, the Denon AVR-X3700H, if you can find one new for under $1,000, or the AVR-X3800H when it is on sale, you will pay less and get more, than the MRX540. The MRX AVRs are really over priced in my opinion, not as bad if you are in Canada.

Over priced based on practical value only, otherwise it is a subjective matter, because a) Denon Audyssey XT32 SubEQ HT, used with the $20 app can do more than Anthem's own room correction. Anthem does phase optimization but it isn't effective, in my experience, though I think it has potential to get better with future updates (hopefully), b) Denon's more powerful, based on specs and test results, c) much more future proof as it can process 11 channels, d) has 4 independent (X3800H) subwoofer outputs, even the 3700 has two, the MRX540 has just 1 (the 2nd one is wired in parallel, so not discrete). If used as preamp/dac for 2 channel use, then I would take the MRX540 but that's a lot to pay for it to be under utilized.
 
P

Phil J N.Z.

Junior Audioholic
I do have another thread along this line but this one is more specific. I'm looking to replace a Anthem MRX 510 with one of the following:
Marantz Cinema 60, Denon x3700 or X3800, or X4700..

My goal is to upgrade to HDMI 2.1, but also try to get as close to the sound quality of the Anthem as I can. These are all in my price range but i could also spend a little more. again, I'm really interested in the best sound possible. we listen to a lot of music!

Are there other brands I should consider? The Marantz has a handsome price of $799, w/ 5 year warranty. plus 3 hdmi inputs that can handle 4k@120hz.

Thanks a ton for your help!




I was going to get a Marantz Cinema series receiver but went for one of the last SR series Marantz, I got the SR7015 really cheap brand new in the box. What made the decision was the price and that the new Cinema series has not got the 7.1 Analog in and I wanted that for my Oppo UDP205, I find the Marantz excellent for music.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
The absence of the 7.1 analog inputs on the new models is a pisser for some for sure.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
What made the decision was the price and that the new Cinema series has not got the 7.1 Analog in and I wanted that for my Oppo UDP205, I find the Marantz excellent for music.
Regardless, congrats for you success in acquiring the 7015, it really is a great model for those who still need the legacy I/O for whatever reasons. There are not even offered in flag ship models any more.

In terms of sound quality in general, all those models mentioned so far are all so similar, so decision based on price is a wise decision imo. As to sound quality specifically for music, it's a huge myth that has been all over forums that some are better for movies while others better for music and some great for both. In reality, the devices don't know, and don't really care, as long as they are not push to the limit, if they do well in movies they will do well in music. I know you are simply saying the 7015 is excellent for music (and not suggesting others are not), and that I am sure it is, but I just want to mention this as a by the way kind of comment that it is not something people need to be too concerned about when choosing their AVR.

Also worth noting that some manufacturers seem more honest in their marketing info (though still often full of BS by nature). As an example of a little honesty, quoting Anthem FAQ again:

Are they better suited for music or for movies?
Sound reproduction equipment doesn't know the difference between a music signal and a movie signal, or for that matter the musical score within a movie soundtrack. Accurate for one means accurate for the other.
 
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Phil J N.Z.

Junior Audioholic
Regardless, congrats for you success in acquiring the 7015, it really is a great model for those who still need the legacy I/O for whatever reasons. There are not even offered in flag ship models any more.

In terms of sound quality in general, all those models mentioned so far are all so similar, so decision based on price is a wise decision imo. As to sound quality specifically for music, it's a huge myth that has been all over forums that some are better for movies while others better for music and some great for both. In reality, the devices don't know, and don't really care, as long as they are not push to the limit, if they do well in movies they will do well in music. I know you are simply saying the 7015 is excellent for music (and not suggesting others are not), and that I am sure it is, but I just want to mention this as a by the way kind of comment that it is not something people need to be too concerned about when choosing their AVR.

Also worth noting that some manufacturers seem more honest in their marketing info (though still often full of BS by nature). As an example of a little honesty, quoting Anthem FAQ again:
When I was deciding what to purchase I had several options, Yamaha, Denon, Antherm, Pioneer.
I was given a little used Pioneer Receiver so when my old SR6007 died I used that for a while, no matter what I did the sound was disappointing so that ruled that out, I then went through all the other options and was really disappointed with Yamaha and Antherm and so decided to stay with Marantz and am really happy I did.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I think some people can get great sound from any of the major brands.

But some people can only get great sound from certain brands.

I’ve used both Denon/Marantz and Yamaha, and both sound equally great. Although if I had my wish, I would want the best from both worlds. I want Yamaha’s MusicCast and app + Denon/Marantz’s DEQ + Subwoofer in PD mode. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
When I was deciding what to purchase I had several options, Yamaha, Denon, Antherm, Pioneer.
I was given a little used Pioneer Receiver so when my old SR6007 died I used that for a while, no matter what I did the sound was disappointing so that ruled that out, I then went through all the other options and was really disappointed with Yamaha and Antherm and so decided to stay with Marantz and am really happy I did.
I am sure lots of hobbyists would agree with you, but the thing is, if you replace where you wrote Yamaha and Anthem with Marantz, and replace where you wrote Marantz with Yamaha and Anthem, tons of people (probably including the OP:)) would also agree with you. That's why sometimes I don't understand where people get on various forum and ask questions like, How do you find the "sound" of the AVR xyz or xyz vs def...?:D, as if they were going to make their decision based on what others say about how xyz, def "sounds".
 
Tankini

Tankini

Full Audioholic
I am sure lots of hobbyists would agree with you, but the thing is, if you replace where you wrote Yamaha and Anthem with Marantz, and replace where you wrote Marantz with Yamaha and Anthem, tons of people (probably including the OP:)) would also agree with you. That's why sometimes I don't understand where people get on various forum and ask questions like, How do you find the "sound" of the AVR xyz or xyz vs def...?:D, as if they were going to make their decision based on what others say about how xyz, def "sounds".
We see these kind of post all the time, seems like an agenda being pushed. Maybe online Best Buy etc.. Salespeople, posting up on forms to drum up sales. It's Pretty much an easy dead giveaway when OP posting up links to the gear that they have to different sites to buy. If they even have the gear at all.
 
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Phil J N.Z.

Junior Audioholic
I am sure lots of hobbyists would agree with you, but the thing is, if you replace where you wrote Yamaha and Anthem with Marantz, and replace where you wrote Marantz with Yamaha and Anthem, tons of people (probably including the OP:)) would also agree with you. That's why sometimes I don't understand where people get on various forum and ask questions like, How do you find the "sound" of the AVR xyz or xyz vs def...?:D, as if they were going to make their decision based on what others say about how xyz, def "sounds".
Agreed it is very subjective and will depend on many things like room, speakers, sound source and type of music, am lucky my Wife likes the same music taste as I, best part is I have a very friendly HIFI shop here and I have known the owner for 40 years and is always very helpful.
 
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Phil J N.Z.

Junior Audioholic
I think some people can get great sound from any of the major brands.

But some people can only get great sound from certain brands.

I’ve used both Denon/Marantz and Yamaha, and both sound equally great. Although if I had my wish, I would want the best from both worlds. I want Yamaha’s MusicCast and app + Denon/Marantz’s DEQ + Subwoofer in PD mode. :D
As long as your happy with the sound your getting that is all that matters.
 

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