Narrow speaker decision, please help

[altaic]

Hello all, first time poster here. I've enjoyed reading greatly, but now I'm stuck and could use some help.

I'm setting up an audio system that has pretty strict size constraints, and I've compiled a list of speakers that fit the front (we have built in surrounds, and I'll figure the center out later). Pretty sure I'll need a sub, but size isn't a problem there. Basically cost isn't an issue, since speakers this size generally don't exceed $600.

Oh, the room is 16'x24', and the fronts have to be pretty close together in addition to facing the short length of the room, so I'm leaning away from the directional horn tweeters such as on Klipsch XL-23 (I dig the construction of those speakers, though). Finally, the fronts will be in a nook of sorts, so they have to be front-firing only.

Anyway, here's a list of speakers I've read good things about, in no particular order:

• Role Audio Discovery (LCR) - $550 (role audio)
• RBH MC-414C (LCR) - $379 (MSRP)
• Energy RC-Mini Center (LCR) - $275 (MSRP)
• Klipsch XL-23 (LCR) - $375 (crutchfield)
• Definitive Technology Mythos Two - $430 (palm beach digital)
• Aperion Audio Intimus 4B - $130 (aperion audio)
• Paradigm Reference Millenia 20 - $500 (MSRP)

And here are a few more which would fit, but appear to be unreviewed or are otherwise somehow out of favor:

• Energy RC-Mini - $225 (MSRP)
• B&W XT2 - $600 (listen up)
• Role Audio The Sampan FTL - $500 (role audio)
• Silverline Audio Minuet - $600 (MSRP)
• Paradigm Cinema 220 - $200 (MSRP)
• Canton CD 250 - ???

I have only heard one of them: the Def Tech Mythos Two, which I thought were just okay (I don't think the place had set the sub up properly)...

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a proper audio shop in this area (Sarasota, FL) to listen to the others, so if anyone who has listened to them could give some input, that would be really appreciated! Otherwise, suggestions and comments are welcome!

Will

 

[jostenmeat]

That is a sizable room, so my concerns are power handling and/or being able to fill the room, as well as fearing how close they have to be together.

Can you please describe in better detail why it must be like this? Photos are good too.

If cost is truly a non-issue, but aesthetics are top priority, you can get very high quality on walls or in walls, but at very high prices. If this lets you spread the speakers further out, it is something to consider.

Just trying to goad you into sharing more details, if only so that others have more to go on, in helping you.

Otherwise, I cannot vote for any of your choices due to unfamiliarity, and wish you good luck.

I have the impression, assuming that the speakers are at least halfway decent, the placements of said speakers (as well as listener) in the room are unbelievably more important than the final decision of which speaker to buy.

 

[bandphan]

Are these going into a cabinet?

 

[BESLC]

I think it would be best if you looked at matching the fronts and the center channel at one time and not blow off the center channel. Having the three front speakers timbre matched is important or you could run into some real issues by mixing several different types of speakers(different fronts and center).

How do you plan on dealing with the front sound? Do your speakers need to go into a cabinet, can they be free standing?

As for speakers listed, I for one give Aperion a big thumbs up...I am running an Aperion setup, using 4 Towers. Aperion builds a high quality and beautifully finished product.

 

[jostenmeat]

As for speakers listed, I for one give Aperion a big thumbs up...I am running an Aperion setup, using 4 Towers. Aperion builds a high quality and beautifully finished product.

I am of average stature, and have pretty poor range for a vocal bass, and yet I can easily and very comfortably sing lower in freq than that speaker.

Then consider that speaker has an extremely low sensitivity of 84 db.

I'm not saying that can't sound nice in the right setup, but there are some serious compromises.

 

[BESLC]

I am of average stature, and have pretty poor range for a vocal bass, and yet I can easily and very comfortably sing lower in freq than that speaker.

Then consider that speaker has an extremely low sensitivity of 84 db.

I'm not saying that can't sound nice in the right setup, but there are some serious compromises.

If you are speaking about the 4B,I agree. My comment about a thumbs up for Aperion, is regarding the quality of the products they build and sell. The best made speaker will sound horrible in the wrong application. I am not endorsing any particular speaker without more info.

I for one am a bit confused as to what his question and criteria is? The poster indicated that the speakers will in in a nook, more info on this would be very helpful, is the nook a cabinet or???

Hopefully he can provide a bit more info.

 

[altaic]

Thanks for the quick replies! I'm probably going to pull the trigger today or tomorrow, so it's much appreciated.

I should have described the placement better, sorry about that. Each speaker will be going into a narrow cubbyhole (6"W x 32" H x 10" D) in the wall (~36" from the floor). I guess you could call it a shelf. These are perhaps six feet apart, now with an hdtv centered between them.

Unfortunately I can't really do in-wall (or on-wall) speakers, since there are paintings covering one of the sides, and apparently audio is less important than paintings are here... Perhaps something to think about for the future.

Floor-standing is also a no-go, since while the room is large, it has couches and tables and such placed so the floor around the screen has to be available for walking. IOW, if it was blocked off, people would have to walk the long way around the room. And since the tv isn't the only thing the room is used for, it doesn't make much sense to rearrange everything.

Also, to clarify when I said that cost is not an issue as far as these speakers go: I meant that when deciding between $150-$600 speakers, cost doesn't factor in for me. Cost does definitely factor in if we're talking $1000+ per speaker, and I'd probably wait till I have more money before going for something like that.

Anyway, as for the center channel, I'll most certainly go with whatever matches the front pair, but right now I need to pick a front pair that'll fit.

As far as brands go, I'm aware that many of the companies of the speakers I listed make fantastic and beautiful large floor-standing speakers. I've even heard some of them... But I'm at a loss when it comes to these small speakers.

Thanks again for the replies!

 

[altaic]

I've just come across the Mordant-Short Alumni 8 speakers, which would just barely fit, and appear to be ~$500 a piece. I found very positive reviews of Mordant-Short home theater systems, alas none of this beautiful speaker.

Mordant-Short's Carnival series has some offerings as well; the Carnival 1 fits without issue. The Carnival 5 is a center channel, but would fit turned vertically...

Is it accepted practice or at least within reason to use two speakers designed to be horizontal center channels as vertical front left & right? Some manufactures specifically say that it's cool, and others never mention it.

 

[just listening]

To be honest, a small mini-monitor like the 4B is just too small for your room. They can't push enough air to give the impact I'm betting you desire.With the measurement you gave for the "cubby hole" if you took off the base to the Aperion 4T they just might fit height-wise. Those little mini-towers are terrific and are designed to be placed against the wall.

Another mini-monitor possibility that has more room filling capability is the Totem Dreamcatchers.

 

[altaic]

To be honest, a small mini-monitor like the 4B is just too small for your room. They can't push enough air to give the impact I'm betting you desire.With the measurement you gave for the "cubby hole" if you took off the base to the Aperion 4T they just might fit height-wise. Those little mini-towers are terrific and are designed to be placed against the wall.

Another mini-monitor possibility that has more room filling capability is the Totem Dreamcatchers.

I was thinking the same thing about the 4B, and the 4T looked enticing. The problem with the 4T is that the drivers would be really high up... Unless I flipped it over and used it upside down. Kind of an interesting idea, although I have no idea if that's kosher. Thoughts?

Nice, I hadn't seen the compact Totem speakers-- they've been reviewed pretty well and fit into the same price range as the other speakers I'm looking at. The Dreamcatcher is a good size, width-wise, but not really much bigger than the Aperion 4Bs. Something like the Mite-Ts would be great, except they have a rear port (not indicated on their site, but was noted in a review).

I think the tall and narrow LCR speakers may be the way to go, since they use the whole cubby which I imagine would help fill the room. Does that seem sensible?

 

[Davemcc]

I think you can take the Cinema 220 off your list. They just don't have the extension for use in a primary system. I use them in a bedroom where on wall is preferred and ultimate sound quality is a non-issue. They are a decent speaker but for limited applications, IMHO.

I've heard a couple different models of the Role. They are a different animal than most, a single driver in a folded transmission line design. Without getting into details about how much it is or isn't a true transmission line design, it does produce a strong, smooth and natural bass that is somewhat surprising for it's size. It is a speaker that I like very much but I wouldn't recommend getting it unless you can hear it for yourself first because it does have characteristics different from a lot of commercial speakers.

The Energy RC-Mini is also a nice little budget speaker that I generally like but would not even consider unless you are using it with a subwoofer. It's not a stand-alone speaker.

There is one small speaker that I absolutely love and whole-heartedly recommend when certain conditions are met. The Era D4, if it would fit your space, retails about $600 or less and has all the characteristics I like in a speaker. It still have trouble describing how it sounds other than "sweet sounding". It has smooth, natural sounding bass that is much stronger than you would expect from the size of the cabinet. Even if you had to run this without a sub, I don't think you would be disappointed. As an added bonus, the designer says that the port tuning was designed to accommodate tight mounting spaces.

At this price point, I think you would be well served to find an Era dealer and give the D4 a listen (if it fits your space, that is).

 

[altaic]

I think you can take the Cinema 220 off your list. They just don't have the extension for use in a primary system. I use them in a bedroom where on wall is preferred and ultimate sound quality is a non-issue. They are a decent speaker but for limited applications, IMHO.

I've heard a couple different models of the Role. They are a different animal than most, a single driver in a folded transmission line design. Without getting into details about how much it is or isn't a true transmission line design, it does produce a strong, smooth and natural bass that is somewhat surprising for it's size. It is a speaker that I like very much but I wouldn't recommend getting it unless you can hear it for yourself first because it does have characteristics different from a lot of commercial speakers.

The Energy RC-Mini is also a nice little budget speaker that I generally like but would not even consider unless you are using it with a subwoofer. It's not a stand-alone speaker.

There is one small speaker that I absolutely love and whole-heartedly recommend when certain conditions are met. The Era D4, if it would fit your space, retails about $600 or less and has all the characteristics I like in a speaker. It still have trouble describing how it sounds other than "sweet sounding". It has smooth, natural sounding bass that is much stronger than you would expect from the size of the cabinet. Even if you had to run this without a sub, I don't think you would be disappointed. As an added bonus, the designer says that the port tuning was designed to accommodate tight mounting spaces.

At this price point, I think you would be well served to find an Era dealer and give the D4 a listen (if it fits your space, that is).

The Era D4 looks really nice according to the reviews-- one reviewer's room was almost exactly the same size as mine, which is encouraging. Unfortunately I couldn't find any reviews for the D4 LCR, though-- Do you know if the D4 LCR's sound is comparable to the D4?

 

[altaic]

As an added bonus, the designer says that the port tuning was designed to accommodate tight mounting spaces.

That's good, but being rear ported, do you think my mounting space would be too tight? I couldn't find info on minimum mounting space.

Thanks again for your valuable audition feedback re. the other speakers. From SPI's site, I just found out they have a retailer near me, which also has totem speakers among others. Sweet!

 

[just listening]

With your situation having to slide the speakers into a cubby I would avoid rear ported speakers unless you can get in a free demo or 30 day return policy.

Based upon your description, turning the Aperion 4T's upside down isn't a problem. I've seen plenty of HT setups with speakers tucked into top corners and mounted upside down. The owners were quite happy with the results.

 

[jostenmeat]

That's good, but being rear ported, do you think my mounting space would be too tight? I couldn't find info on minimum mounting space.

Don't do rear ported, unless the speaker was designed where it is ok to plug the port.

The problem with placing in a cabinet is the resonant mess that will probably happen in there. I understand this is your only option, but I'm just letting you know that is the compromise. You see, people even put acoustic treatments on the front wall, even when the speaker is in free space a couple/few/several feet away.

So, while 6" is pretty narrow, you may or may not consider (depending on the design of cabinet, and what can be done with it), insulating the insides like in this pic. The owner made grilles that cover them, and the speakers are perfectly invisible on a white wall.

Speakers meant for vertical orientation will work fine upside down. Getting tweeters at roughly ear level is a good goal. If one has to choose between too high and too low, go with too high, however. Depending on the dimensions of speaker chosen, you can always angle it a bit. Whether a mopad or doorstops for a bookshelf, for instance.

Is it accepted practice or at least within reason to use two speakers designed to be horizontal center channels as vertical front left & right? Some manufactures specifically say that it's cool, and others never mention it.

It is cool as long as there is not a specially designed waveguide, lens, diffuser on the tweeter that is designed for horizontal orientation. If it just looks like a round tweeter, with woofers, you're fine.

For instance, these will no longer be symmetrical if rotated 90 degrees.

 

[altaic]

Wow! This info has really helped me out a lot. Thanks a ton!

Don't do rear ported, unless the speaker was designed where it is ok to plug the port.

The problem with placing in a cabinet is the resonant mess that will probably happen in there. I understand this is your only option, but I'm just letting you know that is the compromise. You see, people even put acoustic treatments on the front wall, even when the speaker is in free space a couple/few/several feet away.

So, while 6" is pretty narrow, you may or may not consider (depending on the design of cabinet, and what can be done with it), insulating the insides like in this pic. The owner made grilles that cover them, and the speakers are perfectly invisible on a white wall.

For auditioning purposes, do you think butting the speaker up against a wall would simulate the cubby? Or perhaps placement of cardboard would do the trick? When I go to the shop, I'd like to listen to the speakers as close to how they'd sound at home.

Also, given a rear ported speaker, would it be beneficial to loosely stuff the area in the cubby behind the speaker with acoustic batting/wadding (as opposed to the sides as in the pic you posted)? Or would a rear ported speaker in such a small area pretty much have terrible problems no matter what I do?

Speakers meant for vertical orientation will work fine upside down. Getting tweeters at roughly ear level is a good goal. If one has to choose between too high and too low, go with too high, however. Depending on the dimensions of speaker chosen, you can always angle it a bit. Whether a mopad or doorstops for a bookshelf, for instance.

Awesome, just what I wanted to hear. In my case, the bottom of the cubby is about 36" off the ground, which, in this room, is about ear level.

It is cool as long as there is not a specially designed waveguide, lens, diffuser on the tweeter that is designed for horizontal orientation. If it just looks like a round tweeter, with woofers, you're fine.

For instance, these will no longer be symmetrical if rotated 90 degrees.

Excellent. This is really more for my edification, since the speakers I'm looking at don't appear to have such components as you described, but do you think it would be acceptable to unscrew, rotate 90°, and reattach the tweeter (given that the screw holes are in a square configuration)?

 

[altaic]

With your situation having to slide the speakers into a cubby I would avoid rear ported speakers unless you can get in a free demo or 30 day return policy.

Based upon your description, turning the Aperion 4T's upside down isn't a problem. I've seen plenty of HT setups with speakers tucked into top corners and mounted upside down. The owners were quite happy with the results.

Good idea about the return policy! I will be sure to ask.

 

[Davemcc]

That's good, but being rear ported, do you think my mounting space would be too tight? I couldn't find info on minimum mounting space.

The issue has come up before. There was a member here who spoke to the designer about this very issue. The designer says the D4 was designed to accommodate mounting in tight or enclosed situations, as in bookshelves. When push comes to shove, I will accept the word of the designer of one of my favorite speakers.

 

[bandphan]

Another option would be the Martin Logan Motion 8, but again with a F3 of 70hz a sub would be needed.

 

[jostenmeat]

Wow! This info has really helped me out a lot. Thanks a ton!

Hey you're welcome.

For auditioning purposes, do you think butting the speaker up against a wall would simulate the cubby? Or perhaps placement of cardboard would do the trick? When I go to the shop, I'd like to listen to the speakers as close to how they'd sound at home.

I wouldn't. The room is over half what you hear, anyways. IOW, even if you had your exact same cabinet in that room, can it still sound very different depending on the acoustics of the room, and where everything (including you) are placed in it.

Also, given a rear ported speaker, would it be beneficial to loosely stuff the area in the cubby behind the speaker with acoustic batting/wadding (as opposed to the sides as in the pic you posted)? Or would a rear ported speaker in such a small area pretty much have terrible problems no matter what I do?

Much better than loose would be rigid, as in rigid fiberglass (such as Owens Corning 703 or 705), for the bass frequencies. I would pack whatever you are using in there. With very little space on the sides of speakers, you will only be able to absorb down to a certain freq, but perhaps behind the speaker you can do more. IOW, nothing beats pure mass (plus thickness).

Now, if what Dave offered above is true, then you have some enlightenment on the last question in the quote above. If it was me, I would try to avoid rear ported if at all possible.

Awesome, just what I wanted to hear. In my case, the bottom of the cubby is about 36" off the ground, which, in this room, is about ear level.

Sounds good.

Excellent. This is really more for my edification, since the speakers I'm looking at don't appear to have such components as you described, but do you think it would be acceptable to unscrew, rotate 90°, and reattach the tweeter (given that the screw holes are in a square configuration)?

I would imagine it would be fine in most situations, but I cannot offer you any guarantees as a speaker design neophyte.

For future reference, please remember that you can always pose questions to the speakers manufacturers themselves, if you have any particular question about any particular model.