Blu-ray: After the Format War Will there be Format Civil War?

A

admin

Audioholics Robot
Staff member
Now that Blu-ray has taken the apparent lead in the format war with Warner’s pending defection, things may finally get ugly. Remember that business about the incomplete Blu-ray specifications, different specification profiles, potential player incompatibility, and no way to upgrade most existing player models? Video Business Online is reminding everyone in a recent posting.


Discuss "Blu-ray: After the Format War Will there be Format Civil War?" here. Read the article.
 
MUDSHARK

MUDSHARK

Audioholic Chief
Thanks for that link. So HD-DVD will have no (or far less future) movies and current Blu-Ray players will not work on future movies. It appears PS3 is the only current answer.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
All players can play the movie and supplements portion of the discs... It is only the special features specific to a profile that a player with a lower profile won't be able to access. Yes, this is always a risk for early adopters, a lot like when I bought my first DVD player and it didn't have DTS...
 
Djizasse

Djizasse

Senior Audioholic
When BetaNews asked why these manufacturers rushed out players that were not fully capable and potentially buggy due to their BD-J implementation, the Blu-ray partner pointed blame across the room to HD DVD. "We should have waited another year to introduce Blu-ray to the public, but the format war changed the situation," he said. HD DVD was already coming and the BDA had no choice but to launch Blu-ray.

So, when consumers' Blu-ray players don’t work right, just blame Toshiba and HD DVD - the BDA does.
Why does the BDA sound so arrogant? It's just like something Sony would say. Oh! Wait! They're the same :D

Arrogance like no other lol

ps - BR is evil!
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
You know, it's stupid. I think I've spent all of about 10 minutes cumulative watching supplemental material on EVERY DVD I own, and yet people make such a big deal about them. I myself almost never watch them, yet for some reason, I feel cheated if a disc only contains the movie. :rolleyes:

Whatever.
 
Djizasse

Djizasse

Senior Audioholic
Come on. The extras on Shrek were a blast :) And the audio tracks on the "The Thin Red Line" are really beautifull. I love extras :D
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Is Audioholics really going to continue to take the "HD formats are stupid and nobody should want or demand higher quality than DVD!" route?

This is a new and disturbing trend by this site to find flaw with the two new technologies and since the site no longer seems to be able to stab at the format war since the WB announcement dumps HD DVD into the garbage can, it now will look for new failures with the HD technology which will guarantee it's failure - despite first year sales that outpaced DVD?

It is time to move on! Blu-ray players may require firmware updates, but they have been getting them and the biggest hold up has come from slow manufacturers in releasing the firmware updates that ensure compatibility. It is more likely that in two years a first generation Blu-ray player will be able to play the newest iteration of Batman than... say... HD DVD - which will not have any new releases on it at all.

Yet, there are tons of people who have not paid attention to their purchases and will have issues with firmware updates. No doubt this is a pain for some, but it is by far a vast minority that will own 1.0 players in 2-3 years. Likely it is already a vast minority due to the popularity of PS3 as a Blu-ray player.

I hope this site, for all the naysaying is willing to step up when the 'niche' market of HD (HD? Who wants HD???) turns into something a bit more than that as this site continually, and disturbingly claims.

As to Djizasse - get over your HD DVD lust - that game was stupid and is well over.
 
M

Mark in GA

Audioholic Intern
I'm new here and I haven't bought either a HD DVD or a Blu-Ray player because it still seems to me they "have not settled down yet". My question is how much longer is it going to take for the standards to get worked out on this stuff?

I would really like to upgrade, but I won't/can't afford to buy something that is still a "work in progress" to this degree.

Later,
Mark in GA
 
I would think that by the end of this year all new players will be BD Profile 2.0 (Live). Then they'll introduce Profile 3.0 in 2009 sometimes, lol.
 
F

frostbyte

Audioholic
Many people have chosen the PS3 for their blu ray player of choice for just the reason being mentioned. It's got to be the best of the players any where near it's price range and is getting all the upgrades that come out. It's a great gaming machine and very well priced. With Sonystyle's website giving the $100 off with their credit card it's a no brainer. That puts the PS3 to $50 more than the Wii and $50 less than the XBox without HD-DVD player in it.

The older players are going to be outdated....someday. Most disc's aren't coming out to even use the features people are complaining about. It's not near as big of a deal as some people are trying to make it out to be. So you can't use picture and picture. How many people really even use that? I haven't used that feature on a TV since the 90's when my first TV had it. It was a fun thing, but a bit silly most of the time. Nice for TV surfing between commercials, but with DVR's, it's completely useless the way I watch TV. When I watch a movie I don't even bring in my cell phone. Movie time in my house is sacred. I don't goto the theater anymore to avoid stuff like that. It's something the family can do with no interruptions. The online features are yet to be seen. By the time discs have that stuff on them, maybe it will be nice to have, but still, I'm there for a movie, not the features. All current players will still give you what you paid for.

I remember DVD touting all sorts of features their players and movies would be able to do and almost none were implemented. I was waiting for the language bleeping feature that we were told about way back in the 90's when it first came out. Never saw that on any disc, did you? I ended up having to get a seperate DVD player that added the feature themselves. Simple, but only one player company does it. The more basic the longer the player will probably last. The more you want it to do the sooner it will have some sort of problem because of the "feature rich" players.
 
I hope this site, for all the naysaying is willing to step up when the 'niche' market of HD (HD? Who wants HD???) turns into something a bit more than that as this site continually, and disturbingly claims
We're not really claiming anything. The market is currently very niche and other technologies are fast approaching. There are hundreds of other websites that are all over BD (and formerly also HD DVD) as if it was already the replacement of DVD. It's not being marketed that way by the studios or manufacturers who get the majority of their money from SD players. Since the industry admits it's niche, why should we drink the same kool aid everyone else is?

The same thing you are saying was handed to us during the SACD/DVD-Audio debacle and we were the only site claiming that these formats had serious issues (one of which was poor marketing and industry adoption). Because of these issues (not us) the formats really stalled and eventually fell into obscurity.

We were right then, and we're trying to be cautious (but humble) now.

If you want "ra-ra Blu-ray" there are tons of other sites that will tell you what you want to hear. We're giving you our honest observation/opinion of the state of things. And we'll be the first to admit we were wrong if the tide turns and studios and manufacturers start marketing BD as a replacement to DVD. After all, the players are backwards compatible, why not market it this way?
 
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ParkerAudio

Full Audioholic
I have a PS3 and a Toshiba A2, haven't had to update the Toshiba near as much. However, I am looking at another Bluray player, not really needing any kind of gaming ability, and the selection is pretty bad. And what is further troubling about the Bluray players is the articles I am reading about how bad they upscale. HD DVD players are doing this job a little better, but not as good as a cheap DVD dedicated upscaling player.
I hope that we all haven't sold ourselves down the river proclaiming Blurays capabilites only to come up short. I particularly like how the BDA is getting behind the consumers who are purchasing these unit currently.

"BDA representatives on the CES floor would only recommend the PS3 Blu-ray player due to the upcoming hardware changes."
 
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stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
We're not really claiming anything. The market is currently very niche and other technologies are fast approaching. There are hundreds of other websites that are all over BD (and formerly also HD DVD) as if it was already the replacement of DVD. It's not being marketed that way by the studios or manufacturers who get the majority of their money from SD players. Since the industry admits it's niche, why should we drink the same kool aid everyone else is?

The same thing you are saying was handed to us during the SACD/DVD-Audio debacle and we were the only site claiming that these formats had serious issues (one of which was poor marketing and industry adoption). Because of these issues (not us) the formats really stalled and eventually fell into obscurity.

We were right then, and we're trying to be cautious (but humble) now.

If you want "ra-ra Blu-ray" there are tons of other sites that will tell you what you want to hear. We're giving you our honest observation/opinion of the state of things. And we'll be the first to admit we were wrong if the tide turns and studios and manufacturers start marketing BD as a replacement to DVD. After all, the players are backwards compatible, why not market it this way?
That's the right way to market BD, show the masses that they can still keep their SD collection and augment with BD. This way J6P will feel at ease and not worry about replacing his coveted collection of SDs with expensive BD. I believe BOSE marketing would do an incredible job with this, their power of persuasion is legendary.:D If they would jump on the BD bandwagon they can really change the market.
 
P

ParkerAudio

Full Audioholic
I thought that 1.1 profile was suppose to make internet connectivity mandatory, but I see different in the chart.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
2.0 is web connectivity, 1.1 is essentially PiP and a few other features.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
We're not really claiming anything.
You'll have to excuse me, but this site very much has taken a negative stance on HD video formats from the getgo:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/10-more-reasons-hd-dvd-failed
http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/but-i-already-have-a-dvd-player/
http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/10-reasons-why-high-definition-dvd-formats-have-already-failed/

Without any chance to get footing underneath the formats and move them forward beyond the early adopters, this site has taken a 'they've failed' stance.

Mostly due to comparisons of SACD and DVD-A which is a horrendous analogy.

The market is currently very niche and other technologies are fast approaching. There are hundreds of other websites that are all over BD (and formerly also HD DVD) as if it was already the replacement of DVD.
Yes, and the formats are certainly being marketed right alongside DVD at the moment, but clearly haven't hit an adoption or price point to realistically become a 'replacement' format, that's for sure. Nevertheless, niche status seems to indicate a lack of growth or very limited growth, as opposed to early status, or being in a pattern of growth.

It's not being marketed that way by the studios or manufacturers who get the majority of their money from SD players. Since the industry admits it's niche, why should we drink the same kool aid everyone else is?
The market indicates it as a growing format with growing status and more and more CE support. This is not an industry admiting it to be niche, but an industry pushing forward with a new technology on a long term marketing campaign to replace the old.

Audioholics has taken a stance of 'niche... at best.... probably a failure'

Why... Let's follow to the continued (very poor) comparison:

The same thing you are saying was handed to us during the SACD/DVD-Audio debacle and we were the only site claiming that these formats had serious issues (one of which was poor marketing and industry adoption). Because of these issues (not us) the formats really stalled and eventually fell into obscurity.
SACD and DVD-A were being marketed to people that didn't, and still don't own high end surround gear. This site may cater to that crowd, but the J6P crowd just wants to kick back with their HDTV, enjoy watching HD cable, and listen to the stereo sound from the built in speakers with a one cable connection.

This is not at all what SACD or DVD-A delivered - it was a market very much divided, and not at all easy to setup or access to the average consumer. It wasn't portable, and offerred little - or no - ability for the portable crowd.

In contrast, all I said above was about the average consumer buying HDTV, wanting HDTV, paying for HDTV, and enjoying HDTV. DVD <> HDTV, and I am in full agreement that this is a HUGE hurdle for HDM to overcome, but it isn't in the same realm as DVD-A or SACD, because consumers are getting bigger and better HDTVs, not smaller and more portable ones.

It also isn't even a split - not even close - on support. Pioneer, Sony, Panasonic, Denon, Sharp, Philips, Samsung - vs. - Toshiba WB, Sony, Disney, Fox - vs. - Paramount, Universal.

So, there is definitely some things to work out and it definitely is a struggle, but I would think that any site would get on board with continual support of HD formats and not the random naysayings that consistently occur. The price difference may not justify it right now, but right now it is still very early in the game. In one or two years, pricing may be in a completely different department for both movies and players. Then the site will happily embrace it? I don't think that makes sense.

There's no reason for AH to embrace the formats, but there's far less reason to continually poo-poo them like they don't offer marked improvement in both video and audio quality over HD DVD. Especially with certain films.

We were right then, and we're trying to be cautious (but humble) now.
Cautious wouldn't be calling the formats 'failed' already, but would be encouraging people to buy in, if their budget allows for it (either format - I don't care).

If you want "ra-ra Blu-ray" there are tons of other sites that will tell you what you want to hear. We're giving you our honest observation/opinion of the state of things. And we'll be the first to admit we were wrong if the tide turns and studios and manufacturers start marketing BD as a replacement to DVD. After all, the players are backwards compatible, why not market it this way?
We don't need a Blu-ray.com attitude - people should hear the truth. Yet, to pretend that these formats aren't both still very new and have a long way to go and the first step is to have a single format to take on DVD as next generation would be a lie. Pretending that they don't have a chance against DVD is also a lie. Calling a growing product line a 'niche' product - is very much a lie as well... But I feel this is perpetuated by the site, not all the users here.

I think there are people here who have both formats and swear by the quality of them, regardless of format (BD or HD) yet, they still recognize the potential of format failure... yet they have no doubt of improvement in quality they are getting.

What level of quality improvement?


Here are links to the two original photos:
http://www.avintegrated.com/images/bluraydisc/bluray_knights.jpg

http://www.avintegrated.com/images/bluraydisc/dvd_knights.jpg

FYI: I am going to retake these photos using my A2 for upconversion via HDMI. The photos shown were regular 480p DVD via component and 1080i HD via component to a Pioneer 6070 display.
 
patnshan

patnshan

Senior Audioholic
All players can play the movie and supplements portion of the discs... It is only the special features specific to a profile that a player with a lower profile won't be able to access. Yes, this is always a risk for early adopters, a lot like when I bought my first DVD player and it didn't have DTS...
Take a look at AVS regarding certain movies not playing on certain BR players. That would piss me off big time!

HD DVD movies play on all players, never been a problem. Too bad they are going to lose:(

Pat
 
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autoboy

Audioholic
Yeah, I'm pretty sad that HD DVD looks to be the loser because they always had the better format IMHO. Oh well, my PS3 is a better player than my component only 1080i (why when I can take a 1080p signal??? WTF!) Xbox so at least I'll get the better picture. I was big on their dual sided discs. I used that pretty frequently. I could care less about the features, though the 300 HD-DVD was pretty cool the way it showed the blue screen in the PIP.
 
P

ParkerAudio

Full Audioholic
I wish HD DVD would have won as well, but unless Bill Gates throws a bunch of money behind it, and another studio defects, it looks like a loser.
Yeah, some of the earlier players didn't convert up to 1080p, but what would you rather have a player that doesn't provide progressive at 1080 or a player that doesn't play all the movies?
 
A

aarond

Full Audioholic
I see that the $1k pioneer is profile 1.0 no upgrades! What a rip off!
Does anyone know what prifile the new Denons are?
 

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