Exploring the Depths of Format War Ignorance

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admin

Audioholics Robot
Staff member
Number of people who don’t know they need an HDTV to view HD content? Survey says… 40. That would be the number of people out of every 100 that have no idea that an HDTV is even required to view HD content. This is according to results of a Best Buy phone survey of 1012 adults in the continental US, as reported by High Def Digest and Home Media Magazine.


Discuss "Exploring the Depths of Format War Ignorance" here. Read the article.
 
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Buckeye_Nut

Audioholic Field Marshall
That's not surprising to me in the least, but it's still an eye opener when you see the results of the study.
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
I'm not surprised at all. I'd like to also know:

1) The % of people who think that buying an HDTV automatically gets them HD, even though they don't have HD cable or sat.
2) The % of people with HDTV's and HD cable who still don't know that they need to switch from channel 2 to 252 to get the HD picture.
3) The % of people who get all of the above right, but still listen to the speakers in their TV's.
 
Wafflesomd

Wafflesomd

Senior Audioholic
I'm not surprised at all. I'd like to also know:

1) The % of people who think that buying an HDTV automatically gets them HD, even though they don't have HD cable or sat.
2) The % of people with HDTV's and HD cable who still don't know that they need to switch from channel 2 to 252 to get the HD picture.
3) The % of people who get all of the above right, but still listen to the speakers in their TV's.
We use the speakers in our TV.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Just from gauging how little my friends and family know about HD and its puts and takes, I am not surprised by these number at all. Pretty sad state of affairs none the less.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Sometimes, bragging rights is all they want.

Actually, if they have an ATSC tuner, a workable antenna, and some local HD content they might be good to go.

But I digress...

How many people do you see driving Corvettes or have big, shiny off-road type vehicles without a scratch can really appreciate what they can do. It feeds their ego, impresses the weak-minded, and keeps 'em happy.

Some people simply don't want to be "educated" as to what's needed. They get it into their heads that all they need is a HDTV and that's about all that matters to them. You can bet that some salesman tried to get the idea across about needing source material (most likely involving a larger sale) but odds are they simply ignored it. That they are actually satisfied with their picture and purchase is what really scares me but to each their own.

As for HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray, I'm still sitting this one out. I'll deal with upconverted standard DVD's (which ain't that bad) until a clear direction emerges here. I lived through the quad wars and the VHS/Beta wars so I'm not in that much of a rush.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
My wife is one of those. She was not impressed with the big screen LCD set. She knew we needed to replace the broken SD TV but didn't have any feel for the HD at all. She can't see the difference between a movie in HD or upscaled SD. She can see the difference between HD broadcasts and SD broadcasts but doesn't care. She watches it for content, not picture quality. she can operate the remote control but can't operate the individual components of the system. My wife is very typical of the average consumer in that regard. She likes to watch TV and recorded movies but is oblivious to the details. So the numbers don't surprise me.

More amazing to me are the HD hobbyists who don't understand that you need to have programming broadcast in HD in order to see HD on your screen. Some assume that an HD channel broadcasts only HD. I see a lot of that on these forums.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
They don't know cause they don't care. My 14 year old is perfectly happy watching MTV on a 27" CRT. He knows that we get HD MTV comming out in 5.1. He admits it looks and sounds good. But he doesn't care.

I calibrated a friend's system. We wrote the settings down so that he could go back to them. When the power goes out and the system resets to all zeros he leaves it there. It still works.

Another friend calibrated his own system. Sounds like crap. I brought my SPL meter over and got him to run test tones. We both watched the meter jump around all over the place. It was good enough.

I bet butchers aren't surprised when most people don't know or care where Tenderloin comes from.:)
 
T

terror_beast

Audioholic Intern
Not at all surprised by these poll results. I wouldn't go so far as to think any of these polls are totally accurate, but the fact is that EVERY poll of this type comes back with - at least - similar results to these.

I've said since the beginning that migrating to HD-DVD and/or Blu-ray requires too large an investment of money for the average person to ever care. It's all fine and dandy to hit the $200 mark for a HD-DVD player, but that doesn't even begin to describe the true cost.

In order to truly see and hear the difference between HD-DVD/Blu-ray and DVD, you MUST have a HD Monitor and a 5.1 surround speaker setup. And I would say that you not only need a HD Monitor and 5.1 surround, you need a GOOD HD Monitor and GOOD 5.1 surround.

Lots of people out there have displays that have HD resolution, but in all honesty, they aren't really very good displays. People buy them because they are flat and cheap. You know the kind of displays I'm talking about. The LCD or Plasma displays that have some brand name you've never heard of and a price tag that makes you wonder what is wrong with it. Well we (internet A/V enthusiasts) may steer clear, but lots of people out there gobble up those displays because they are a flat panel and maybe even because it has the "HD" tag on it.

Even worse is the audio side. Surround sound is something that most people know about now, but that doesn't mean people are doing it right - far from it! First off, TONS of people who DO buy some sort of surround sound setup do NOT set it up correctly. The speakers are misplaced, those God awful wireless surround speakers are very popular, the setup isn't calibrated at all etc. etc. And very very often, what is being bought is some cheapo HTiB. And even worse than that is when people spend a good chunk of money, but they do so on a B*ose system!

So now, even if we look at just the small percentage of people who have a HD monitor and 5.1 surround, how many of them have a less than good quality HD display and/or some cheapo or crap HTiB surround sound? I'd wager a LOT.

Play a HD-DVD or Blu-ray movie back on such a system and the benefits over DVD are going to be minute or lost altogether. Dolby TrueHD doesn't sound any better than regular DD when played back through a B*ose system or a $300 HTiB. 1080p24 video doesn't look all that much better on an uncalibrated, 1024 x 768, 500:1 contrast, 18ms response time, 32 inch LCD flat panel viewed from 10 feet back.

Sadly, that kind of setup is more common and that is among people with any sort of HD display and surround sound at all!

To put it bluntly, educating people is not the solution. The simple reason is because people just don't care! We may care. But we're also the kind of people who notice audio/video problems in a movie theater. We're the kind of people who don't like mp3 audio because we hear the compression. We're the kind of people who don't really watch internet pirated movies because they look crappy and don't have surround sound. We are the only type of people interested in HD-DVD/Blu-ray and we are a very small minority.

The average person bought into DVD because even on a 19" CRT using just the built in speakers, the difference and improvement over VHS was still obvious! The same CANNOT be said of HD-DVD/Blu-ray.

Average people do not care about quality. So long as they can get an idea of what is going on, that's good enough. Most people don't really watch movies or listen to music with any sort of involvement or attention anyway. It's just background noise. Just something to have on for a distraction. People talk through movies, talk on the phone, eat, do other things, etc. etc.

Long story short, DVD ain't going anywhere. Downloads may eventually cut into the DVD market just as they have the CD market, but that's about it. HD-DVD and Blu-ray are VERY MUCH the SACD and DVD-Audio format analogues of movies. They're basically fighting over a consumer market that can't sustain them anyway. Even if there had only been one high res audio format, it still would have died. The same is true of HD movies. Even with only one format, people still would not have cared and still would not buy it. What the masses want is quantity and cheap. DVD can deliver that. Downloads may present an alternative.

The only way HD is EVER going to take off is if it becomes the ONLY thing out there. When the only TV you can buy is a HDTV, the only things being broadcast are HD channels and the only movies for disc sale OR download are HD resolution, THEN the masses will buy HD. But not because they ever asked for it or even wanted it. Even if/when that happens, you can be guaranteed that they still won't be buying surround sound setups and that if they do, it'll be some cheapo/crap surround.

For "us" who actually care about and want HD movies, our best bet is just to wait about 25 years. In the mean time, if we really care about HD content, we should grab as much as we can, because both of these HD disc formats are DOA.
 
D

Dolby CP-200

Banned
I’m not in least bit interested in buying a white elephant for now.
 
A

autoboy

Audioholic
Come on. HD is still new. When that 90% of people get help from the 10% of people that know, they will eventually get their systems set up to get HD. As soon as you start watching shows in HD, eventually you tire of SD. HD became the standard in my house but it took some time before that happened. For the first year I was happy enough with SD, and HD was just a blessing. Now, I can't stand SD and only watch it if I have to. I'm not a crazy audiophile. I'm a regular guy with a system that is now set up properly thanks to you all. Thanks. I still listen to internet radio, mp3s, and stuff, so I can see where everyone else is coming from, but eventually people will get HD because there is no stopping HD on TV now. Once they get used to HD, they begin to understand what HD is and will accept it as the standard. Then they will eventually want to get a HD player. This will take 5 more years at least. I hope you are all in for the long haul.

As for the fact that people are stupid, keep in mind that 20% of americans can't point to the US on a world map. People are MORONS. Get used to it. If you ever doubt this, go to the DMV and observe the people that are there. You are smart people, you hang out in smart places. The DMV is for everyone, you will stand amazed at how stupid the general population is.

Also, even people who aren't dumb make dumb mistakes. My brother in law, with far too much $, bought himself a 65" DLP and a Vienna Acoustics system. He got the low end, but still, these are very nice mini towers powered by a high end amp and expensive DVD player. Most music is from an ipod. I stopped by his house to watch a movie while I babysit his son, and within the first 30 seconds of the movie, I knew something was wrong. He hadn't left yet so I asked him who set it up. Magnolia. Checking out the system, he had the left and right mains wired backwards, also with opposite polarity. In ceiling rears were turned way up, at least 6db too high set as large, and the center was +9, with a crossover at 150hz. At least the mains were set to large (no sub, still sounds good without a sub after I calibrated it)

I set the system up as good as my ears could do properly, calibrated the TV to the best my eyes could handle, and enjoyed the rest of the movie. He came back and couldn't believe the difference. It is not that he didn't care, it is that he didn't know. Here is a guy with $10k in audio and video equipment, expensive battery terminated speaker cables and all (i made him sell them on ebay and replaced them with Home Depot specials that I told him are Monster cause he won't listen to me about cables) and Magnolia couldn't even set up his system properly. There is no chance for the general public to get good audio.

HD video, now that one is much easier. The cable company at least gives you component cables when they hook up your HD box.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
The common theme seems to be that people are morons if they aren't aware of how to properly setup and calibrate a/v equipment or they put up with lousy sound or images because they 'don't care'.

I don't think any of that means that the people are morons just that things are good enough and as fmw said about his wife: 'she watches for content, not audio or video quality'. That describes the majority of people who buy a large flat panel screen - they buy it because it is BIG, period. Now if they pay someone else to set things up and it is done incorrectly as we hear so often then that is a sad reflection on the company that did it, but how would a regular consumer even know that it isn't right? How many people would notice that their car is now idling too fast after a trip to the mechanic?

I do notice video quality somewhat and I definitely can tell differences in audio but in some ways I don't care either. My sister and I were talking about an old movie we remembered - Ghost Town - and we set out to find it. It has never been mastered to DVD and all I could find was a VHS at a used cd/dvd store on the net. I bought it and brought it with me when I went home for Christmas. It was horrible - poor tracking with wavy lines, minor pauses in the audio, etc...and YET we watched the whole thing and enjoyed it having not seen it for 10 years or more. It was the content that was enjoyable and we watched right through all the defects.
 
A

autoboy

Audioholic
I'm not saying people are morons because they can't set up their TVs or audio equipment. Technically it is pretty hard. It took me some time to properly set up my system also. For 10 years I had a system that was inpoperly set up and I enjoyed it. I'm saying that it will be very difficult to get people to understand HD if they can't even point to the US on a map. HD is techincally difficult. There are so many variables that need to be accounted for and you are not going to get people to understand it all. I do, however, expect the people that sell it and install it to understand it. This will eventually come, but don't count on the general public to ever get about 20% of people who understand this stuff. I mean, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, HDMI, component, AC3, DTS, HD-DVD, BluRay, HDCP, etc. This stuff is confusing even to people who care! It is not as simple as plugging a coax cable into your TV. Lemme tell ya, my Grandpa is screwed as soon as they turn off analog TV. I'm gonna have to schedule a trip out to his house before they do so I can set him up. He will probably be the only one of his friends that will actually be able to watch TV, and they didn't make it too easy now with all this sub channel crap.
 
hemiram

hemiram

Full Audioholic
A friend of mine is wanting a new TV, and has started asking me about HDTVs and what you have to have to get it, etc. I don't see him very often but I talk to him once in a while. He comes over to help me fix my bathroom wall. We cut some of that blade destroying "Hardi-Back" stuff to replace the watter rotted stuff and we put it up and smeared some stuff to fill in the seams and cracks and then he wanted to check out my TV before he left.

I had Discovery HD theatre on, and it was a nature show of some kind. He looks at it a while, and says it looks "OK". He's the only person who's seen it, that says that. The usual reaction is "Wow!!". I say, "That doesn't look tons better than anything you've seen at home or about anywhere else?" He looks and says, "It looks like my TV!" I channel surf and go to one of the regular networks and there was some show on, looked great. He still can't see any difference! I've seen his TV, it's an older SD projection set, and it looks bad, real bad. His wife seems to think everyone should look like they have a hint of seasickness, and or sunburn. When I have to watch that thing, I have to fight the urge to play with the settings on it.

So we go into the other room, where I have a decent enough Toshiba 19" CRT TV and I put it on the SD channel with the same programming. He says it looks the same. I tell him to look at the billboards along the road, and the river water, and then we go into the other room and finally he says, "Well it is a lot clearer, I guess, big deal!" I wanted to smack him on the head with a newspaper. It's way brighter than his set is, it's sharper, of course, and the display has even brightness, something his TV is really bad at. I said, only half joking, "You really need to get your eyes checked!".

What did he expect HD TV to be compared to regular TV (Not counting the format)? He was shocked when I told him DVD wasn't HD! He sees the ads for BR and HDDVD, and hadn't figured it out yet?

I gave up at that point. He's going to have to buy something soon though, the old TV is having problems coming on, and he's not going to try to fix it. I suppose I'll be getting a call soon. I'll have a hard time keeping him away from the cheapest thing Costco or Sam's Club sells.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
The common theme seems to be that people are morons if they aren't aware of how to properly setup and calibrate a/v equipment or they put up with lousy sound or images because they 'don't care'.
In my case that is not the case.

What I find odd is that we care so much. I found this site by googling component video connections to find out what brand I needed, to get the most I could out of what I had. Three years later I can say that "normal" people look at me like a freak when I tell them how I feel about DVD-A. And I'm certaily no match for some of the guys around here who really know the ins and outs of A/V. Most people think I've gone over the deep end. Ahhh.... if they only knew the true depths some audiophiles sink to. The horror of it all.:p:D
 
davidtwotrees

davidtwotrees

Audioholic General
I didn't kill my wife! I DON'T CARE!

Alex, you described me to a tee. I came here about a year ago and am now an audioholic. Like you, I am not as technically minded as some of The Gang of Spuds.
My best friend can build a large home, from the ground up. He can take apart a carbeurator and put it together again. Yet when it comes to this hobby, he finds the "tangle of wires very confusing". I sold him some gear last winter, and he never did figure it all out. The Pioneer DV45A universal player never was connected right. I finally sold him my Mordaunt Short's towers and went over and hooked him up. He wrote back that he finally got what I was talking about re: the sound of DVDA! The rest of my extended friends and family?! They could care less about SQ and PQ. I would say ease of use is the biggest deal. Like FMW's wife, they want to switch it on and watch/listen.

When I first heard you folks ranting on about hdvd vs bluray, I thought exactly what one of the earlier posters said- "this is the video version of sacd and dvda"!
Tommy Lee Jones in The Fugitive shares the sentiment of most American's regarding the format wars,
"The picture is sooo much better! I DON'T CARE!"
 
T

terror_beast

Audioholic Intern
I think we can all agree that even if we have a great knowledge of the A/V world ourselves, we can easily understand how pretty much anyone out there could get very confused by all of the acronyms, technologies and jargon. I've been an A/V enthusiast for several years now, but I can easily admit that there are many facets of the A/V World that are still confusing to me. I don't have the knowledge or qualification to perform a professional level calibration of a display. I couldn't possibly explain the exact electrical workings of more or less any A/V related product. I couldn't set up a complete home automation system on my own.

So when some random person I come across doesn't know the difference between composite and component video, I really don't blame them. If someone were to begin an in-depth conversation about car engines with me, I'd be the same way. I may have heard the names and even know what many of the parts do, but really understanding car engines? That isn't my forte.

So the way I see it, what we're really seeing in the results of this poll and others like it is simply that people are confused. Most people like to watch TV and movies and listen to music. But that doesn't mean they're seriously interested in how it all works. I like to drive my car, but that doesn't mean I could build or repair one!

So if I were to guess, I'd say that anyone who has a car probably has a TV. There's a lot of car enthusiasts out there, but there are a great deal more people who are like me and really don't fully understand how a car works and don't have the skills to repair one. So what do we do? We leave the repair and maintenance of our cars to professional mechanics. People who know more about cars than we do and are trained to repair and maintain them.

What's happened is that a full high definition setup has reached a level of complexity where a similar sort of relationship is needed. People were pretty ok when it was a matter of buying a single box and connecting one cable to it. Adding a VCR was enough to confuse a heck of a lot of people (all the jokes about the "12:00" flashing?). With high def, we're talking about needing a new display, a box from a cable or satellite provider, a receiver, 5 speakers, a subwoofer and a new disc player with all new discs (which confusingly, look exactly the same as the old discs!)

Even if someone wraps their head around all that, they then have to contend with needing all new types of cables and connections. HDMI at least helps to simplify that a little, but we're introducing new acronyms and jargon.

Get past the connections and you're faced with a myriad of new tech jargon and technologies. VC1, mpeg4/AVC/H.264 (<--right there is a great example of confusing terms! 3 names for the same thing!), Dolby TrueHD, Dobly Digital Plus, DTS-HD High Resolution, DTS-HD Master Audio, or how about DTS-HD core only?!

The way I see it, there are two choices if we really want to see HD become the standard. We either have to drastically simplify the whole thing; or, we need to make it like car maintenance: we have to get people to pay someone else to do it and more importantly, there need to be well-trained professionals available to help!

The second choice may be the better way to go in terms of quality, but let's not forget the big difference between a car and HDTV: people need their car, they don't need HD. So I believe that simplifying is the way to go.

We can keep the elaborate products, they're like the upgrades and luxury car items. But for the masses, we need to make HD simple so that it is no longer confusing and intimidating. So what might work?

Well, first off, like I said earlier, we need to reach a point where the only TV you can buy is a HDTV. And everything you get from a satellite or cable provider needs to be HD (even if it's upscaled - like an older show in reruns, so long as every channel is broadcast in HD resolution all the time). The one cable solution of HDMI is good. And for movies, we need a single transport that can play ALL movies, both HD (which should gradually become the only thing that you can buy) and DVDs for everyone's already purchased collections.

The TVs themselves (ALL of them) need to have surround sound built in. Something like the Yamaha sound bar technology would work well for this sort of thing. If we get to this type of situation, then it just becomes a matter of buying a TV (ANY TV), pluging it into the wall and plugging a single cable into the back from their single disc player that plays EVERYTHING. Then, they just have to call their cable or satellite provider and that provider can come to their house, give them one more box that plugs into the back of their TV with a single cable and that box will let them watch TV and record it on a hard drive. One TV, two boxes and two cables. That is pretty simple and I really think that's what it needs to be.
 
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