CableCARD Deadline Imminent

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Audioholics Robot
Staff member
CableCARD discussions have come and gone on this site, however there IS an actual deadline looming that is about to finally force the companies to split off the security features of cable from the tuners. This is significant for two particular reasons: 1) The deadline is no longer extendable- at least according to FCC Chairman Kevin Martin, and 2) the cable companies themselves must comply with the new methodology, meaning they will have to use their own CableCARDS.


Discuss "CableCARD Deadline Imminent" here. Read the article.
 
W

westcott

Audioholic General
I think some of your information is a little out of date. DishNetwork is giving away HD DVR's with new subscriptions. I have never had a problem with Dishnetworks hardware, which I can not say about other vendors.

In the end, CableCard will probably die away anyway. It is limited in capabilities and only adds to the cost and maintenance of a display device providing support for them.
 
I've seen 4 room systems given away with contracts, as well as DVRs, but never HD DVRs... Looks like they have finally offered some nicer incentives, though I believe you still don't technically own the box.

Looks like they will also transmit most HD network channels to my location for another $5.99/mo

Contracts is another thing I never mentioned... that cable has the benefit of being contract-free... though if you get a free install and cancel within 3 months you may owe some money.
 
AlphaWolf

AlphaWolf

Junior Audioholic
I think some of your information is a little out of date. DishNetwork is giving away HD DVR's with new subscriptions. I have never had a problem with Dishnetworks hardware, which I can not say about other vendors.

In the end, CableCard will probably die away anyway. It is limited in capabilities and only adds to the cost and maintenance of a display device providing support for them.
Well satellite providers are exempt from this for many reasons. They probably will never have anything like a cablecard. Cable providers use QAM, Dish uses DVB-S, and DirecTV uses both DSS (which is somewhat proprietary) and DVB-S2 for its MPEG-4 video.

Cablecards, and by extension anything that can use them, only work with QAM (often pronounced as "kwahm") signals.

Cablecards are actually quite nice, and will lead to new set top boxes that will prove to be quite interesting. For example, new PVR's will be able to digitally record the video, leading to much more efficient and lossless video storage. No digital > analog > digital conversion necessary. And best of all, you'll be able to pick what kind of PVR you want. You like tivo better than those motorola boxes? You can use a tivo. You like MCE with an HTPC better? You can use it.

Without cablecard, it will be entirely up to your cable company what kinds of devices you are allowed to use on their network. And not only that, but you'll have to buy the DVR from them, and even pay them a monthly premium just to use their DVR which you may not like as much as your favorite DVR.

Cablecard allows you as a consumer to use *any* compliant device of your choosing, and you don't have to pay the cable company just for the privilege of using it. You may not see any benefit to cablecard yet, but because of the way that it allows cable to be so modular, you will definitely see benefits in the future as the technology becomes more affordable.

Also, while cablecard 1.0 is limited in that communication is still only one way, limiting e.g. VOD, cablecard 2.0 not only solves that problem, but also enables features like multiple tuning for e.g. recording two simultaneous shows. Cable companies have already been pushed for cablecard 1.0, so cablecard 2.0 serves to their benefit, so you can expect that they'll be pushing for that very soon. And, since cablecard 2.0 can provide guide data, you are going to start seeing DVR's come around that have -zero- monthly fees as you don't have to rely upon them on a continuing basis.

Frankly I think this is a very nice thing, and I wish something similar could apply to directv, who I subscribe to.
 
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K

kleinwl

Audioholic
Cable support for cable card

Even with the FCC pushing, I do not expect to ever see cablecard really supported by the cable companies. Why train your techs for something that doesn't add to YOUR bottom line.

As we saw with cablecard equipped TVs and Series 3 Tivos, the cable companies rarly wish to put ANY money into tech training... thus de facto no cablecard support.

I expect this who thing to die off in 2 years from lack of interest.
 
AlphaWolf

AlphaWolf

Junior Audioholic
Even with the FCC pushing, I do not expect to ever see cablecard really supported by the cable companies. Why train your techs for something that doesn't add to YOUR bottom line.

As we saw with cablecard equipped TVs and Series 3 Tivos, the cable companies rarly wish to put ANY money into tech training... thus de facto no cablecard support.

I expect this who thing to die off in 2 years from lack of interest.
I see what you are saying, but not everybody is going to depend on the cable company technicians. The only groups out there opposed to cablecard are the cable companies themselves. Groups in support of it are companies like microsoft, intel, tivo, and pretty much every major home electronics manufacturer, who have much to gain by being able to provide their own wares directly to the customers without having to make expensive and often drawn out contract deals with the cable companies.

And as the technology becomes more mature and standardized, the need for technicians will ultimately go away. Remember that before DOCSIS largely took over, it used to be that the cable company would *have* to send out a technician to install high speed internet service. Now many customers just walk over to their local retail store, pick up a cable modem, and plug it in themselves. No waiting for an appointment or anything. At least, cox permits this anyways, I don't know about other providers.
 
Some of you may not have read the entire article. What the FCC is essentially saying is that even the cable companies will have to use CableCards in all of their digital boxes.

Also, I am not aware of any cable company that charges outright for its set-top boxes. They are all lease only.
 
M

mbakker

Audiophyte
Well, I think it's a major step forward with the CableCards. I would hope the technology would get around to making it a two way communication.

What I can see as far as the applications coming out of it are new flat panel TVs with built in hard drives for DVR capability and just plugging in a CableCard from your local cable provider and you are set. It would be nice to have all that in one component/tv. In that way, I could hang a new LCD over my fireplace and not have to worry about hooking up an external set top box or any of that. I could plug in the coax and be good to go.

From a manufacturing perspective, I would think that it would provide a boost to flat panel display sales having all that in one item. It would make it easier for a consumer to hook up as well. However, the cable company probably wouldn't get as many calls either for connection issues. But I can attest that last week my neighbor set up a front projection system, called the cable company to set up HDTV for him and they didn't even hook up the right cable - HDMI. They connected it via a composite cable. I had to go over and hook it up for him correctly. Had I not gone over there, he would have never known that he wasn't really looking at HD. So, my point there is the cable companies don't know what they are doing now anyway.

For what it's worth.
 
W

westcott

Audioholic General
Well, I think it's a major step forward with the CableCards. I would hope the technology would get around to making it a two way communication.

What I can see as far as the applications coming out of it are new flat panel TVs with built in hard drives for DVR capability and just plugging in a CableCard from your local cable provider and you are set. It would be nice to have all that in one component/tv. In that way, I could hang a new LCD over my fireplace and not have to worry about hooking up an external set top box or any of that. I could plug in the coax and be good to go.
For what it's worth.
I have never been a big fan of all in one solutions. Yes, they are convenient until ONE of the components fails. Then, you have to send the WHOLE package back and you are left without a display or whatever esle was in the package. Modular designs seem to be too expensive or beyond the comprehension of most CE providers so I will take my equipment piece meal, thank you.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I think CableCard is a market revenue generator that has yet to be fully tapped. Forget set top boxes - think HTPC. Let's face it, things like gaming consoles are moving towards the forefront of the content providers for our home systems, but HTPCs simply aren't taking off...

WHY?

Because people mainly want to watch TV and there hasn't been a good way for the HTPC to deliver TV content. Sure, off-air can be done. So can cable... But what about full HD cable with full Tivo services? How about downloading Tivo to any HTPC so you get true Tivo, with full interaction with a HTPC that has a proper remote, excellent video processing, full access to your music, videos, and photos? Most of all - you can just turn it on and WATCH TV!

Really, I see CableCard setting up to expand profitability for cable companies if they choose to embrace the technology and allow it to push VOD and premium services more easily.

Of course, that last line is the hard part.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Also, I am not aware of any cable company that charges outright for its set-top boxes. They are all lease only.
That is what annoys me about cable. Every time the rates go up they increase the 'rental' price of the box. To me it's just a ploy to make it appear that rates haven't risen as much as they have.

If you ask the price of digital cable they say $50, but of course you can't actually view that cable without a set-top box that costs an additional $8 per month. Marketing gimmicks at their best - advertise digital cable for $50 then add in the rental for the box and the 25% of the bill that are fees and taxes and the real cost is well over $70. I pay $139.42 for digital cable, a couple of movie channels, and RoadRunner.

Wasn't there a recent article about the FCC forcing cable companies to drop the rental racket and allow consumers to buy their own box?
 
L

Logey

Audiophyte
I work for a cable company and we have received a batch of test boxes from Motorola. They have CableCARD slots in them and they require a CableCARD to work properly. They will become the only set-top box we issues to customers in the near future.

Logey
 
K

kleinwl

Audioholic
Some of you may not have read the entire article. What the FCC is essentially saying is that even the cable companies will have to use CableCards in all of their digital boxes.

Also, I am not aware of any cable company that charges outright for its set-top boxes. They are all lease only.
This do not change my opinion that the cable companies will not support cablecards. So what if there set tops have a card in them. The cable card will be installed at the manufacturer and passed down the chain... a customer recieving "just" a card is a different proposition alltogether.
 
AlphaWolf

AlphaWolf

Junior Audioholic
That is what annoys me about cable. Every time the rates go up they increase the 'rental' price of the box. To me it's just a ploy to make it appear that rates haven't risen as much as they have.
Yeah that was a major factor in my decision to switch to satellite. You can actually buy/own the hardware. No stupid lease fees.

If you ask the price of digital cable they say $50, but of course you can't actually view that cable without a set-top box that costs an additional $8 per month. Marketing gimmicks at their best - advertise digital cable for $50 then add in the rental for the box and the 25% of the bill that are fees and taxes and the real cost is well over $70. I pay $139.42 for digital cable, a couple of movie channels, and RoadRunner.
Don't forget the additional fee they charge for each room that has digital cable. Or at least cox does anyways. With analog you pay one rate for all TVs in the house. With digital you must pay for the rental, and the fee for adding the basic "digital tier" channels, even if you never watch them but just want digital for e.g. pay per view or HBO.

They flash around the price for the analog cable when they try to sell you away from e.g. satellite, and they flash around words like "digital quality" (most retarded sales term ever invented IMO...wtf is "digital quality?" It's either a digital signal or an analog one, and either one can be better quality than the other depending on several factors) but they don't actually tell you that the digital service costs more than that.

Wasn't there a recent article about the FCC forcing cable companies to drop the rental racket and allow consumers to buy their own box?
Not exactly. This is actually the subject that the OP article is about BTW. What the FCC did mandate was that cable companies will eventually be required to stop issuing cable boxes that have the box and the conditional access system integrated. This means that they must issue a cable card to *every* customer. Upon installation, the cable card will be connected to the cable box, and the cable box connected to the TV, yada yada.

The upshot of this, is that you can rent a cable box from them, but you aren't required to under any circumstances. You are free to buy your own if you want, and like cablemodems, they'll be available at e.g. your local bestbuy, circuit city, etc.

Cable card is making cable look more attractive to me than satellite used to be. I still prefer satellite, but when some nicer cablecard enabled devices come around, I may end up switching to cable due to the fact that the consumer choice factor will be much greater with cable.

There is one benefit to this that the cable companies somewhat ignore, which is that the cable card system provides them an easy and cheap means of upgrading their networks to fight against piracy. Many of you satellite customers may notice that your receivers have to use access cards. These access cards are the key to decrypting the video signal.

Since these cards are replaceable without replacing all of the set top boxes, you effectively have a cheap renewable security option. Directv was able to completely stop people from pirating its signal by merely replacing its access cards. Like these access cards, cable cards are also a conditional access module that can be easily replaced.
 
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M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
With digital you must pay for the rental, and the fee for adding the basic "digital tier" channels, even if you never watch them but just want digital for e.g. pay per view or HBO.
Yep, that's another one of my pet peeves. You HAVE to have 'basic' cable before you can get the digital tier. Nearly ALL of the analog channels from the basic tier are duplicated in the digital tier and the audio is still analog. I have noticed though that they are slowly changing so that some of the channels that used to be strictly analog audio (like TBS) are now broadcast in 48 kHz PCM.

This is the same racket as discussed in the article about counting channels. The cable company can claim 300 channels but when you subtract out the 70 or so that are duplicated you are already down to 230. Then subtract out the fluff like HSN, foreign language, etc and there are even fewer. Now subtract out the HD channels that are the same network but appear on multiple channel numbers and the number goes down even more...

Maybe some day we'll get true a-la-carte pricing and can choose our own 50 channels or so.
 
AlphaWolf

AlphaWolf

Junior Audioholic
BTW, with regard to the audioholics specific article, there is something I feel I should clear up, as I have tons of experience in the DVR arena:

If we look at the table above we can see that the cable company leases the box at a monthly rate. Normally, you'd think some may be better off buying a piece of electronics outright rather than leasing it for a monthly fee. Over time the product would be paid off, correct? Well, not necessarily. For one, I have gone through no less than 3 HD-DVR boxes in the past 5 years due to hard drive failure. Each time the cable company replaced the box for free (since it is leased). Had they been TiVos and had they been out of warranty (as at least two of them would have been) I'd be out well over $1200.
Tivo is a ripoff. There is no doubting that whatsoever, even myself as a long time tivo owner do not doubt this at all, and under normal circumstances I wouldn't pay what they charge. You can however, replace the hard disk with *any* PC hard disk of your choosing. How hard or easy this is depends entirely upon your experience with computers in general. If you have ever built your own computer before (and many people have) then it is really quite simple.

Head over to www.dealdatabase.com/forum for more info. FWIW you'll notice that I am somewhat well known there.

But I digress...

In addition, TiVo charges users for the privilege of using its program guide. My cable company's, though it lacks some of the bells and whistles, doesn't charge extra for this once I have the box. Oh, we're not done yet... Remeber, the TiVo requires a cablecard to work with those digital channels you like so much. That's an extra $3.95/mo fee from the cable company for leasing the card (you can't buy it either). The grand total is $19.95/mo for HD-DVR (over the price of analogue cable) with no box fees, and $30.90/mo plus up to $599 for a TiVo-based HD-DVR.
True, if you are going to go with a tivo. But, tivo isn't the only DVR game in town. Many more will surface as time progresses. Especially given that DVR's with digital tuners will be cheaper to make than DVRs with *any* kind of analog hardware. Tivo only charges more for the HD units just because of the fact that they are HD. But technically speaking, it is much cheaper to make strictly digital DVR's than analog ones. The reason why is because you don't have any need for an NTSC decoder, an analog to digital converter, or any mpeg-2 encoding hardware.

Yowsa - I'm sure there are some deals out there, but the bottom line is consumers are (at least currently) paying a premium for TiVo-based entertainment if they want access to digital channels from cable. We won't even bring up satellite, which stretched incredulity as owners actually pay a flat (typically steep) fee for HD-DVR boxes that they technically have to surrender should they ever cancel their services (and no there is no refund).
Not true!!! This is a common misconception! - at least, not true for directv anyways (I don't know about dishnet.) I am an owner of two HR10-250's. These are the very first high definition tivo units to ever come out. The total monthly cost for these is $5 a month. And that $5 a month is good for *all* of the TV's in your house, even if they are tivo brand.

My cost for TWO HD-DVR's is $5 a month over the regular satellite bill. Thats it, I am dead serious about this.

If you had this *same* setup for cable, you'd be paying $40 a month over your regular cable bill.

With directv tivos, you don't do any business with tivo themselves. You only pay directv that $5 a month, and it doesn't matter how many tivos you have, its still only $5 a month. The non tivo brand DVR's are the same.

Also, with directv I own my HR10-250's. If I ever cancel the service, I keep them. Granted they only work with directv, I still get to keep them. Now, new directv customers won't experience this on the other hand, namely because directv puts new customers on a lease program, and they will have to return the equipment, which is gay, and for this reason alone I personally wouldn't ever *pay* for any new directv hardware. On the plus side, you only pay $5 a month for the lease fee, which is exactly the same as what you pay for the regular mirror fee as if you owned a second unit.

We know there are those of you who have experiences with TiVo and CableCARDs and we'd like to hear about them. Be sure to post in our forums to let us know what you think and how this might affect how you use cableTV in your home.
But as I have said in the past, tivo isn't going to be the only option in town. For the time being, it more or less is. Once cablecard 2.0 comes around, you'll have even less fees to worry about as the unit won't ever have to phone home to acquire guide data. Eventually you'll see DVR's with no monthly fees attached to them at all.
 
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Just some info for people wishing to know more on the lease issue (my understanding is that actually owning any DirecTV receivers purchased after March 3, 2006 gets a lot more expensive and few retailers offer the option):

DishNetwork Polcies: http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/about_us/residential_customer_agreement/index.shtml

DirecTV Policies: http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P500014

New DirecTV "LEASE" Plan Discussions:
http://forums.digitalinsurrection.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1968343325
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=54135
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290416
 
M

mbakker

Audiophyte
I have never been a big fan of all in one solutions. Yes, they are convenient until ONE of the components fails. Then, you have to send the WHOLE package back and you are left without a display or whatever esle was in the package. Modular designs seem to be too expensive or beyond the comprehension of most CE providers so I will take my equipment piece meal, thank you.
I tend to agree with you. I have all separate components as well. But for some situations, I would rather have an "all in one solution" - like above a fireplace. Most people don't have everything wired for such a purpose and connecting a set top box to a TV and such seems a little overboard.

What a manufacturer should do is put a accessible hard drive (for DVR) in the TV that any person could upgrade or replace as needed.
Have a CableCard slot for cable access.

That would be an all in one solution for a TV that shouldn't require a lot of troubleshooting or sending something back to the manufacturer. Besides the hard drive, everything else should be solid state. Sure if your TV display bites it, you have to send in your DVR as well (if it's part of the TV). But I'd take that with a simple solution to hang over the fireplace than rigging up everything to a box on the other side of the room - at least for that solution.
 
AlphaWolf

AlphaWolf

Junior Audioholic
The problem with that though is that not all DVR's are created equal. I hate to sound like a tivo evangelist, because I personally despise tivo as a company, but tivos really are great DVR's. There is simply nothing out there that even comes close.

There are just a ton of things that make them so much more convenient and nice compared to other brands. Most brands don't have a feature that comes close to the season pass feature. You don't even need to know what time or channel your desired show comes on, just search by the first few letters of the name and hit select twice and its done - the whole process takes 30 seconds at the longest, whereas other DVR's either make you look through a big list that you can only choose the first letter of the title on if that, and then if the time or day slot changes you have to do it all over again.

And that isn't even the end of it - there are a TON of little things here and there which once you get used to, other DVR's will seriously piss you off for being unintuitive peices of junk. I really recommend you don't ever try a tivo unless you plan on getting hooked on the damn things. Seriously, if DVR's were like cars, then all other brands would be fords, and tivos would be in their own leage - more like a 150 foot yatch as opposed to a car.

I hope that one day tivo goes belly-up, their patents disappear, and we start seeing other brands come around that start really improving the crap out of the DVR scene. Tivo is the reason why the DVR market is really sh*tty: they have patents one everything DVR related but the kitchen sink, so no other companies can innovate in this area worth a crap.
 
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