Is Klipsch Takeover of Onkyo's US Distribution a Sign of Trouble?

[Wayde Robson]

We've recently learned that Onkyo USA is no more, US distribution has been taken over by Voxx, the company that owns Klipsch. Based on the quote from Voxx's CEO, the "Klipsch team" is at least going to influence how the new Onkyo USA operates. This comes soon after failed buy-out talks with Sound United and shedding its Euro-distribution. Onkyo is sure behaving like a company in some trouble. I wonder if the Klipsch-influence will be good for Onkyo? Klipsch seems to be in good hands, not that I'd know. Based on Onkyo's moves lately, it sure looks like a company in trouble overall.

Onkyo USA Hands Distribution to Klipsch: Is Onkyo in Trouble?

 

[TLS Guy]

I think Onkyo are in a lot of trouble, and so is the the component AV market in general. I think that unless the industry addresses the serious problems and works to cooperatively solve them, the outlook is grim.

I would frame these as the issues.

Complexity.

Architectural.

Lack of competent professional help and advice.

Equipment styling

Climate change.

The increasing importance of speech clarity in more expensive complex systems compared to cheaper solutions. I think this is very high of the list of major problems for the AV industry. A primary cause is obtuse denial of the reasons for this and solutions.

In a way all these issues are interrelated.

I think the industry has made a huge error in concentrating on multichannel systems, which are totally unsuited to installation in the majority of homes. Open space rooms are far better off with 2.1 or 3.1 systems. These would provide for not only a better AV experience for most, but be much more architecturally acceptable.

A good multichannel AV experience really does require a dedicated room. So this usually means a basement location for most current homes. Here the noise of HVAC systems can be a problem. The bigger issue is flooding, which is where climate change comes in. More and more areas are becoming more and more prone to basement flooding on a regular basis. Unless the flooding is sewer back up, then the loss of AV equipment in an uninsured loss. It is not covered under Federal flood insurance. I made good and sure that our new home did not have a basement.

So if these issues are to be solved, the industry is going to have to seek cooperation and understanding from the building industry.

I think complexity is a significant barrier especially to many of the non technically inclined. Frankly though I don't know of a dealer, installer or integrator in the metro I would really engage with confidence to do an outstanding robust installation. I'm firmly of the belief that many who would like and have the means to pay for a good system are not able to make the right choices and do a decent installation. To that end I was planning to hold seminars for dealers and installers here, but Covid-19 has put that on hold.

I think the industry needs to realize that this technology is now approaching maturity, and the focus needs to shift to access and NOT features. Reliability is also in issue in my view.

The industry needs to make pivotal change in now.

These monster receivers need to go. They are trouble and NOT fit for purpose. What we need is small need discrete pre/processors, with excellent ergonomics. It is passed time to keep producing passive speakers. It is time to have active speakers and crossovers, with DSP, so that phase/timing issues can be solved. This is now a known issue in speech intelligibility. The sonic benefits of this technology are potentially immense. I noted that a recent active KEF computer speaker with DSP has a perfect phase response!

Connection to all speakers needs to be optical, to eliminate ground loops, so speakers can be powered from any circuit without fear of ground loops. Also optical cables are small, and can be easily concealed.

Reliability becomes an issue here, as speakers should last a long time. So the electronics in speakers needs to use at least automobile grade components. I know for a fact, that if you have a mind to do it, modern electronics can be designed and produced to have long life spans.

Streaming is getting better and better. Soon PQ and SQ will be every bit as good as disc. It very nearly is already. However equipment needs to be designed so consumers can grab any stream or download they desire easily, not just the usual suspects. People have a wide variety of interests. This will all boost the economy and make the arts a bigger and bigger driver of the economy. As an example by my calculation of the membership of the BPO, they are taking in far more in online subscriptions than they ever would in ticket sales. I note this year the Detroit symphony are transferring from on your honor, to $150.00 yearly subscription.

I have form in designing discrete systems over the years. My mother insisted that the audio system in our living room be invisible. When not is use the system was invisible despite large speakers. So the industry needs to partner with architects and Interior designers as well as dealers and installers.

If radical change does not come soon, it will not just be Onkyo and Pioneer in the history books, but Sound United as well, taking Denon and Marantz down.

The fact is we can do a better, neater and less intrusive job. An enormous outburst of creativity is required, urgently.

 

[lovinthehd]

I wonder how much the troubles are based in Gibson's stake in Onkyo USA (then Onkyo Japan) and their bankruptcy. The cost of the extended Onkyo recall to address network/hdmi board issues in their product lines and the reputation that resulted probably didn't help, and wonder how much the Pioneer purchase figured into it as well...

 

[Wayde Robson]

Climate change.

I thought you were kidding about climate change at first. Then I read your post, yeah, it makes sense, climate change is hitting a lot of unexpected areas.

 

[slipperybidness]

@TLS Guy
Down in the south, basements are very rare! In central Tx where it is rocky and built on limestone, basements are non-existent.

I also wanted to make a note on your comment about automotive grade electronics.

I work in a semiconductor fab site, and the majority of the products from this fab are built for automotive applications.

Our goal and buzz word is absolutely "Zero Defects"!

The automotive industry is a titan of a driving force to push for absolute quality and zero product defects. There are even now standards specifically written for producing ICs for automotive, and if you want that business, then you better be following the standards to the letter. Guess what.....the customers come and audit the fab on a routine basis, specifically to look for deficiencies on following the standards. AND.....we routinely go onsite to audit our Gas and Chemical suppliers and push those same standards up the line to our suppliers.

Finally, the metrics for tracking IC failures were historically a "ppm failure metric", but now, under the automotive standards, those customers don't care about "ppm failure rate", but rather they count each and every single failure event and come back with Quality Incidents that they expect to be fully investigated and an action plan to prevent/detect in the future.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I agree with some of Mark's points, specifically on the complexity and disregarding the extremely common issue of human speech clarity.
The situation of equipment complexity (and it's been getting worse over time) reminds me of another battle premium cable TV channels circa 2010 vs Streaming Netflix. We all know where this is going to end up very soon. A somewhat similar situation is going right now with audio systems, where Smart Speakers (HomePod, Echo Plus, Sonos One, Nest etc..) which include voice recognition and some back-end provided AI. You just plug it to power and it just works.
I know that recreating the voice recognition tech at this stage would be near impossible, but I could see some sort partnership between traditional A/V vendors and Smart Speakers making companies to produce some hybrid product line which is a) VERY EASY to use b) Still uses same smart tech c) HIGHLY modular and expandable d) supports anything from 2.0 to 11.2. d) includes auto-room EQ/DSP which works seamlessly and without any effort using microphones already built-in to the speakers.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

I'm with you guys on the complexity aspect. We had 4-channel surround for a while, then 5 for a really long time (still popular even today), then suddenly 7-, 9-, and 11- channels start popping up!

I can only use my own anecdote, but no one in my household even noticed when I sold the 5-speakers and went with 2.0. I haven't even turned on the sub in over a year.

As far as the active/passive debate, the cost is always going to be the deciding factor, and I don't see full active becoming mainstream anytime soon. The people who can afford 5 active speakers are not mass consumers. The price will be considerably more than a big box AVR and 5 passive speakers. When it's competitive price-wise, perhaps the market will change.

 

[highfigh]

I think Onkyo are in a lot of trouble, and so is the the component AV market in general. I think that unless the industry addresses the serious problems and works to cooperatively solve them, the outlook is grim.

I would frame these as the issues.

Complexity.

Architectural.

Lack of competent professional help and advice.

Equipment styling

Climate change.

The increasing importance of speech clarity in more expensive complex systems compared to cheaper solutions. I think this is very high of the list of major problems for the AV industry. A primary cause is obtuse denial of the reasons for this and solutions.

In a way all these issues are interrelated.

I think the industry has made a huge error in concentrating on multichannel systems, which are totally unsuited to installation in the majority of homes. Open space rooms are far better off with 2.1 or 3.1 systems. These would provide for not only a better AV experience for most, but be much more architecturally acceptable.

A good multichannel AV experience really does require a dedicated room. So this usually means a basement location for most current homes. Here the noise of HVAC systems can be a problem. The bigger issue is flooding, which is where climate change comes in. More and more areas are becoming more and more prone to basement flooding on a regular basis. Unless the flooding is sewer back up, then the loss of AV equipment in an uninsured loss. It is not covered under Federal flood insurance. I made good and sure that our new home did not have a basement.

So if these issues are to be solved, the industry is going to have to seek cooperation and understanding from the building industry.

I think complexity is a significant barrier especially to many of the non technically inclined. Frankly though I don't know of a dealer, installer or integrator in the metro I would really engage with confidence to do an outstanding robust installation. I'm firmly of the belief that many who would like and have the means to pay for a good system are not able to make the right choices and do a decent installation. To that end I was planning to hold seminars for dealers and installers here, but Covid-19 has put that on hold.

I think the industry needs to realize that this technology is now approaching maturity, and the focus needs to shift to access and NOT features. Reliability is also in issue in my view.

The industry needs to make pivotal change in now.

These monster receivers need to go. They are trouble and NOT fit for purpose. What we need is small need discrete pre/processors, with excellent ergonomics. It is passed time to keep producing passive speakers. It is time to have active speakers and crossovers, with DSP, so that phase/timing issues can be solved. This is now a known issue in speech intelligibility. The sonic benefits of this technology are potentially immense. I noted that a recent active KEF computer speaker with DSP has a perfect phase response!

Connection to all speakers needs to be optical, to eliminate ground loops, so speakers can be powered from any circuit without fear of ground loops. Also optical cables are small, and can be easily concealed.

Reliability becomes an issue here, as speakers should last a long time. So the electronics in speakers needs to use at least automobile grade components. I know for a fact, that if you have a mind to do it, modern electronics can be designed and produced to have long life spans.

Streaming is getting better and better. Soon PQ and SQ will be every bit as good as disc. It very nearly is already. However equipment needs to be designed so consumers can grab any stream or download they desire easily, not just the usual suspects. People have a wide variety of interests. This will all boost the economy and make the arts a bigger and bigger driver of the economy. As an example by my calculation of the membership of the BPO, they are taking in far more in online subscriptions than they ever would in ticket sales. I note this year the Detroit symphony are transferring from on your honor, to $150.00 yearly subscription.

I have form in designing discrete systems over the years. My mother insisted that the audio system in our living room be invisible. When not is use the system was invisible despite large speakers. So the industry needs to partner with architects and Interior designers as well as dealers and installers.

If radical change does not come soon, it will not just be Onkyo and Pioneer in the history books, but Sound United as well, taking Denon and Marantz down.

The fact is we can do a better, neater and less intrusive job. An enormous outburst of creativity is required, urgently.

Most of the points you raise are due to the marketing departments not understanding what makes a great audio or AV system, how people will use it, what the end users know about it and why the current model doesn't work. The Bose model sucks WRT SQ, specs and actual usefulness, but it appeals to WAF. The full rack with a pre/pro or big AVR, multiple amplifiers and huge subs is great for some single guys, but it really isn't a good option for someone with a family because it's not only expensive, it results in kids/pets damaging things.

You wrote "So if these issues are to be solved, the industry is going to have to seek cooperation and understanding from the building industry."- you may have dealt with the construction industry on your projects and in your area, but you don't seem to understand the lack of concern and knowledge of technology in that bunch. Electricians should really stop installing low voltage unless they get some training. Seriously. Some get it but they hire people who have worked with it and generally keep their high voltage people working on what they know, which IS NOT low voltage. Builders care about cutting costs, not giving the homeowner the best unless the price is extremely high- they may say "We provide the best", but they omit "but you're gonna pay for it" and that doesn't work for high quantity construction.

Look at the market- fewer people care about sound quality- they just want more. The US has about 327 million people but maybe a few million who really want great sound and video.

 

[TLS Guy]

It does seem as if I am striking a chord here.

Yes, currently marketers are a waste of space. They have no clue what the average home owner would really like.

Until this year we had never hosted a Super Bowl party. This year multiple friends called us to ask if they could watch the super bowl here. They all have TVs. The difference was the Audio, yes the audio. Clear diction and uncolored sound creates involvement. So they wanted it in our new great room with my in wall system. So we threw a big party and cooked all morning and most of the afternoon. Now pretty much all of those would love to have a system like that (3.1) in their homes. The problem is that the industry does not offer anything that would make a good discrete system like that easily feasible.

So yes, I do believe it is possible to develop home friendly systems.

What Hi-Fi said about builders and installers is absolutely true. I certainly had to be very forceful and present on site to get things done right. However the low voltage guy was really interested and eager to learn. The Ethernet architecture was all done by myself and my eldest son. In the end we pretty much did the installation except the security system. They placed most of the Tech Tubes and passed most of the Ethernet cable, but not the terminations. I sourced and provided all of the hubs patch bay, modem and mesh router system, and of course the UPS systems. We did a lot of teaching along the way.

The Electrician was excellent and eager to learn. I did the architecture of the home grounding system and circuit layouts and design to minimize RF radiation, as there are a lot of LED light bulbs and dimmers. I provided the magnetic shunt breakers for the power amps and the 'radon' ventilation system for the power amps. It was placed in the attic by the HVAC crew.

So yes, there does need to be novel product introduced and a lot of education provided for many segments of the building industry.

I will say, that the in wall system is a great success, not only with my wife, but for family and friends before lock down. The problem is that a standard stud wall is really not quite deep enough to support a decent system. But it would not have to be that much deeper. Making a wall a bit deeper is not such a big deal. The biggest problem is how deep receivers and pre/pros are. It is my contention that you could actually make a good pre/pro pretty small with optical speaker outputs.

Now the issue with speech clarity, is in my view very much an issue of phase/time shift in the speech discrimination band, and high Q bass interfering with the former. The lobing pattern of horizontal MTMs is also a significant issue. I have done my own investigation of this, and I know it to be true. Not a may be, but certain.

Now take a look at this active KEF lsx review. In particular look at the this superb step response, entirely due to imaginative use of DSP.

So I can tell you without hearing it, that speaker will have superb voice clarity.

Now in terms of hiding subs, TLs actually come into their own here, as they can be designed very slim. The 10" driver in my in wall system fills that huge space with deep bass without difficulty. You would think there were at least two 15" drivers, or may be more. You might have trouble believing that, but it's true.

So if you geared a system along those lines it could be made for both discrete in wall, or free standing systems. The DSP would make it easy to adapt the system to any application. What I mean is be able to correct for in wall, free standing or other without design changes. With high grade components systems could be made user friendly and give long reliable service. I actually suspect that a system on those lines would work just as well as 2.1 as 3.1 providing further cost savings.

My biggest regret of all this, is the total lack of imagination in the industry and their willingness to pass markets by. I would just love the chance to shake this industry up, but probably will not get it. The state of affairs is in my view lamentable and way short of what can, and needs to be achieved.

 

[diskreet]

Completely agree on the home builders points. A close family member just told me they paid almost $1000 to run speaker wire to 4 horribly placed spots in their new house while it was being built. I told them it was literally $50 of wire and an hour of work, so they weren't too happy.
The living room is wide open so they ran the wires 10 feet high on the walls above the living room. And of course they did the mandatory tv too high trope with the fireplace. I know that most people don't care about audio much, but the builder would have done less damage by not even offering terrible speaker placement for any price, let alone ripping them off.

As for Klipsch, they were all I knew when I started down this road. I initially bought a Klipsch system and figure'd I'd upgrade as time went on. Then covid hit, and my house reno pushed me out half a year. Since then I've sold that system (well, two in wall speakers still for sale), and bought Revel Concerta2 / Rythmik for the ground level. I know Klipsch gets some hate for various reasons, but if they can partner with a brand like Onkyo and somehow use that to engage new people into the hobby, that's great. Imagine if they could package solid 3.1, 5.1, 7.1, and more systems in big box stores at a decent price - they could offer far better systems than similarly priced sound bars, with an upgrade path for people who want more.

 

[highfigh]

Yes, currently marketers are a waste of space. They have no clue what the average home owner would really like.

Waste of food, air, water.....

Until this year we had never hosted a Super Bowl party. This year multiple friends called us to ask if they could watch the super bowl here. They all have TVs. The difference was the Audio, yes the audio. Clear diction and uncolored sound creates involvement. So they wanted it in our new great room with my in wall system. So we threw a big party and cooked all morning and most of the afternoon. Now pretty much all of those would love to have a system like that (3.1) in their homes. The problem is that the industry does not offer anything that would make a good discrete system like that easily feasible.

The speakers I built (you provided the crossover design) are excellent for human voice. I had a radio station playing one day while I was reading and a musician I know was in the studio with the broadcast team- he was talking about a person who constantly asked for free tickets and as I was pre-occupied with my reading so it wasn't getting my full attention, when he said he asked what the other guy was doing (my first name is the same), actually responded because it sounded as if he was in the room with me. When I hear others whom I know on CDs, videos, on the radio, they sound extremely similar to real life. Voice sounds very natural and listening requires no mental effort.

So yes, I do believe it is possible to develop home friendly systems.

What Hi-Fi said about builders and installers is absolutely true. I certainly had to be very forceful and present on site to get things done right. However the low voltage guy was really interested and eager to learn. The Ethernet architecture was all done by myself and my eldest son. In the end we pretty much did the installation except the security system. They placed most of the Tech Tubes and passed most of the Ethernet cable, but not the terminations. I sourced and provided all of the hubs patch bay, modem and mesh router system, and of course the UPS systems. We did a lot of teaching along the way.

The Electrician was excellent and eager to learn. I did the architecture of the home grounding system and circuit layouts and design to minimize RF radiation, as there are a lot of LED light bulbs and dimmers. I provided the magnetic shunt breakers for the power amps and the 'radon' ventilation system for the power amps. It was placed in the attic by the HVAC crew.

So yes, there does need to be novel product introduced and a lot of education provided for many segments of the building industry.

Contractors and other employers often see training as an expense and the time paid to send people comes at a high price, but it should pay off in the future. The problem is when a business that's operating close to the edge needs trained people in order to compete and they don't have the money behind them.

I will say, that the in wall system is a great success, not only with my wife, but for family and friends before lock down. The problem is that a standard stud wall is really not quite deep enough to support a decent system. But it would not have to be that much deeper. Making a wall a bit deeper is not such a big deal. The biggest problem is how deep receivers and pre/pros are. It is my contention that you could actually make a good pre/pro pretty small with optical speaker outputs.

If 2x6 framing is sufficient, that's an easy solution. Even if 2x8 is needed, there's not a tremendous amount of space lost. Optical speaker out requires a robust amplifier and if it's in the speakers, that adds to their size. I'm a firm believer in placing the amplifiers out of the way, similar to old cars where the head unit fits in a small space in the dash and the amp/tuner is over the foot well on the passenger side (like older Mercedes Benz cars and their Becker radios).

Now the issue with speech clarity, is in my view very much an issue of phase/time shift in the speech discrimination band, and high Q bass interfering with the former. The lobing pattern of horizontal MTMs is also a significant issue. I have done my own investigation of this, and I know it to be true. Not a may be, but certain.

So if you geared a system along those lines it could be made for both discrete in wall, or free standing systems. The DSP would make it easy to adapt the system to any application. What I mean is be able to correct for in wall, free standing or other without design changes. With high grade components systems could be made user friendly and give long reliable service. I actually suspect that a system on those lines would work just as well as 2.1 as 3.1 providing further cost savings.

Long, reliable service flies directly in the face of the modern manufacturing goal- sell more units. They don't train service techs anymore, they don't ship manuals to servicing dealers and shops, they barely train anyone. I got into the business when most stores had service techs, parts, test equipment and the ability to service almost anything. Then, surface-mount components and digital circuits became common and the whole thing ended because it required much more intensive training.

My biggest regret of all this, is the total lack of imagination in the industry and their willingness to pass markets by. I would just love the chance to shake this industry up, but probably will not get it. The state of affairs is in my view lamentable and way short of what can, and needs to be achieved.

The problem is economy of scale. In the '70s, a popular receiver may have sold a million units and they were happy. Then, mass marketers and big box stores came into existence, making it possible for one company to sell hundreds of millions of dollars of goods in a year and make it to public stock ownership, making them into retail giants (with the annoying result that some folded and left people & real estate without a purpose). Bottom line, they don't care about people who want quality, they deal in goods for those who want quantity.

 

[highfigh]

Completely agree on the home builders points. A close family member just told me they paid almost $1000 to run speaker wire to 4 horribly placed spots in their new house while it was being built. I told them it was literally $50 of wire and an hour of work, so they weren't too happy.
The living room is wide open so they ran the wires 10 feet high on the walls above the living room. And of course they did the mandatory tv too high trope with the fireplace. I know that most people don't care about audio much, but the builder would have done less damage by not even offering terrible speaker placement for any price, let alone ripping them off.

As for Klipsch, they were all I knew when I started down this road. I initially bought a Klipsch system and figure'd I'd upgrade as time went on. Then covid hit, and my house reno pushed me out half a year. Since then I've sold that system (well, two in wall speakers still for sale), and bought Revel Concerta2 / Rythmik for the ground level. I know Klipsch gets some hate for various reasons, but if they can partner with a brand like Onkyo and somehow use that to engage new people into the hobby, that's great. Imagine if they could package solid 3.1, 5.1, 7.1, and more systems in big box stores at a decent price - they could offer far better systems than similarly priced sound bars, with an upgrade path for people who want more.

$1000 sounds like a lot for that, but without knowing exactly what they had to do, it's just a number. I have worked on some projects that needed cable runs that sounded simple, but required routing around steel beams, laminated headers, across corners that couldn't be bridged easily and going under/over the room for a run that, on paper, was a very short distance. I helped on a job yesterday that required running cables from a basement to the cabinet in the kitchen. The previous AV contractor drilled a single hole to pass one speaker cable, but we needed to add another plus a Cat6 and when I cut some of the lath and pulled a much thinner wire to make it possible to see the hole, I could see that the hole was directly under the fridge, so we abandoned it and drilled through the framing to the angled area of the stairwell, overhead. This was behind the AV equipment and part of the plan was to install a fan to help cool the integrated amp, so it needed a hole, anyway. I had to drill through the side wall, cut a trench in the plaster to conceal the cables, drill into the angled ceiling and send the cables up to the cabinet. I think the path length was less than 6', but it took more than 4-1/2 hours, including discussions and talking with the homeowner about how this would happen. Obviously, new construction is different, but not necessarily easy or fast.

Sound bars generally suck and changing the brand doesn't make it better. Small drivers & skinny sound bars aren't going to magically improve and coupling two brands may help one, but if they start doing package systems, it's likely to erode the quality because the main goal will be to hit a price point.

 

[diskreet]

$1000 sounds like a lot for that, but without knowing exactly what they had to do, it's just a number. I have worked on some projects that needed cable runs that sounded simple, but required routing around steel beams, laminated headers, across corners that couldn't be bridged easily and going under/over the room for a run that, on paper, was a very short distance.

Sounds like you've had some tough installs. My family member's house was super straightforward, all the walls were open for easy access. Everything just vertical and horizontal runs through the walls within the room. Probably 1 - 2 hours total to run all 4 wires (yeah, only 4), install the electrical boxes, and secure them in place.

I'm also lucky in my house. We're wrapping up a reno but with floors and walls completely out, and easy access to the attic, I was able to run speaker wire everywhere I needed without any issues. Only challenge was one of the old studs had a small split (late ~1950s house), so I routed up and over it by a couple feet. Super easy, and went well thanks to lots of planning ahead of time.

 

[Gmoney]

I thought you were kidding about climate change at first. Then I read your post, yeah, it makes sense, climate change is hitting a lot of unexpected areas.

Wow! where you been? 2006 member!

 

[highfigh]

Sounds like you've had some tough installs. My family member's house was super straightforward, all the walls were open for easy access. Everything just vertical and horizontal runs through the walls within the room. Probably 1 - 2 hours total to run all 4 wires (yeah, only 4), install the electrical boxes, and secure them in place.

I'm also lucky in my house. We're wrapping up a reno but with floors and walls completely out, and easy access to the attic, I was able to run speaker wire everywhere I needed without any issues. Only challenge was one of the old studs had a small split (late ~1950s house), so I routed up and over it by a couple feet. Super easy, and went well thanks to lots of planning ahead of time.

Don't forget:

- Design/consultation time (even for a small job, this is an expense for the contractor
- Bring all tools and supplies into the house (it's for the job, so it's billable)
- Secure all cable to studs, joists, etc
- Label all cables at the head end
- Stuff cables into junction boxes
- Verify that all work has been completed and done to spec/code
- Clean up site and remove all tools and supplies
- Travel time and wages (if it's close enough that the company doesn't bill for it, it's an un-recovered expense)

Other details not always considered by those who see the bill but weren't necessarily involved in the discussions-

- Pay for liability insurance
- Pay the employees
- Match the employee contributions to FICA (7.65% of their pay)
- Pay for vehicle expenses
- Pay for specialty tools (some companies pay for certain tools, some don't)
- Pay administrative expenses (payroll, phones, advertising, etc)
- Pay for work clothes (maybe it's just for jeans/shorts/shirts)
- Pay for technical training
- Cost for the time and vehicle expenses required to acquire parts, equipment and supplies- you would be amazed by the amount of driving needed to run this kind of operation
- Cost for someone to receive parts and supplies

How much is your time worth, for planning and anything that didn't include the actual work? If you think about the number of companies and contractors who are no longer in business or changed what they do/how they do it, it's likely due to poor planning, accounting or performance. Bad employees are also a big problem, as is bad management.

It's easy to make people go pale when the bill shows up, but have you ever wondered why the bill for a plumber or electrician is so high?

 

[PhilCohen]

Clearly, Onkyo had problems before COVID-19. Last fall. Onkyo's premium "Integra" line announced a new generation of A/V receivers and pre-amps. Those models were never released, and as Integra's previous generation of models sell out, Integra will disappear from the marketplace....unless something is done, and soon, to assert that Onkyo/Integra is still an ongoing concern. I own two Integra A/V preamps; DHC 9.9 and the newer DRC R1.1 (I hold that newer model in pristine "museum grade" condition for use in a future system) The (intended) newest version, the DRC R1.3 ultimately never appeared.

 

[TLS Guy]

Clearly, Onkyo had problems before COVID-19. Last fall. Onkyo's premium "Integra" line announced a new generation of A/V receivers and pre-amps. Those models were never released, and as Integra's previous generation of models sell out, Integra will disappear from the marketplace....unless something is done, and soon, to assert that Onkyo/Integra is still an ongoing concern. I own two Integra A/V preamps; DHC 9.9 and the newer DRC R1.1 (I hold that newer model in pristine "museum grade" condition for use in a future system) The (intended) newest version, the DRC R1.3 ultimately never appeared.

You really are a glutton for punishment, aren't you? Now you want to add an Emotiva amp to your junk pile.

 

[PhilCohen]

The other 7-channel power amps that I considered either didn't have enough power (and would have been a step downward from my vintage 5-channel x 175 watts ADCOM GFA-7700) or would have been priced beyond what I could afford. If only we could all afford a $9000 McIntosh !
My existing Integra A/V processor(Integra DHC 9.9) is a very good unit, and there's no reason why my newer DRC R1.1 shouldn't also be. As for my Klipsch speakers, (4 x RF7III, an RC-64III center channel ,2 x RP502S surround, an R-115SW subwoofer & an SPL-150 subwoofer), they've been well-received by reviewers and they'll be quite adequate for rock music. I'm not listening to classical music. I'm listening to "classic rock" My 7 disc players (including Oppo's BDP-105D & UDP-205 both modified region free) are the best players available for someone who wants to play surround sound SACD's,Blu-Ray audio & DVD-Audio discs. Yes, for people who only want 2-channel playback, there are costly Japanese 2-channel CD/SACD players, but I like surround sound, as untrendy that may be to the audiophile community. (in my original description of my speakers, I forgot to mention the surround speakers. I do have enough speakers for 7.1 surround)

 

[lovinthehd]

Y

The other 7-channel power amps that I considered either didn't have enough power (and would have been a step downward from my vintage 5-channel x 175 watts ADCOM GFA-7700) or would have been priced beyond what I could afford. If only we could all afford a $9000 McIntosh !
My existing Integra A/V processor(Integra DHC 9.9) is a very good unit, and there's no reason why my newer DRC R1.1 shouldn't also be. As for my Klipsch speakers, (4 x RF7III, an RC-64III center channel an R-115SW & an SPL-150), they've been well-received by reviewers and they'll be quite adequate for rock music. I'm not listening to classical music. I'm listening to "classic rock" My 7 disc players (including Oppo's BDP-105D & UDP-205 both modified region free) are the best players available for someone who wants to play surround sound SACD's,Blu-Ray audio & DVD-Audio discs. Yes, for people who only want 2-channel playback, there are costly Japanese 2-channel CD/SACD players, but I like surround sound, as untrendy that may be to the audiophile community.

You should be able to do quite well less than $9k for a good multich 5 ch amp....as long as you stay away from inflated priced brands like McIntosh....

 

[PhilCohen]

It was actually a 7-channel amp that I was looking for, and there were recent, steep price increases on Outlaw & ATI.