Mystery Solved (Elac Uni-Fi vs SVS Ultra)

[Carl08]

I just received a set of the SVS Ultra bookshelf speakers to compare against my Elac UF5s. After about an hour of listening, I've determined that the Ultras are spacious in sound and neutral while my UF5s sound warm but muffled in comparison. I'll be keeping the Ultras and selling my UF5s and UFCenter. I was hoping that the Elacs would have a better showing. Oh well.

 

[KEW]

Yeah, for all of the hype given to the Uni-fi's I was very disappointed to find they did not provide a new standard of sound quality for their price. They aren't bad speakers, but nothing near what the hype would have you believe.
Glad you found the Ultras and commend you for taking the time and trouble to determine for yourself which is better!!!

Had I not heard both of these speakers myself, I might suggest you spend more time listening to a wider variety of music, but I know the differences are pretty substantial.

 

[PENG]

Yeah, for all of the hype given to the Uni-fi's I was very disappointed to find they did not provide a new standard of sound quality for their price. They aren't bad speakers, but nothing near what the hype would have you believe.
Glad you found the Ultras and commend you for taking the time and trouble to determine for yourself which is better!!!

Had I not heard both of these speakers myself, I might suggest you spend more time listening to a wider variety of music, but I know the differences are pretty substantial.

This is the trouble nowadays with the convenience of online subjective reviews that sometimes could go viral on numerous AV forums. Remember the Infinity P36x (I still have a pair), then the Pioneer SP-FSxx? To be fair, they are all good values and my P360s, do sound like speakers that cost more. It is like you said, all the hype that troubles me a little.

 

[j_garcia]

I bought into the hype on the Primus series and bought some. I wasn't totally impressed. I tried out the BS22LR and was rather impressed, so I ended up buying the FS52s and C22 and being happy with them. We had a lot of hype on here about the New AAs so I ended up buying a pair of them too and I was definitely impressed. So there is something to the hype, but likewise there's always something new coming out.

 

[Pogre]

Love my Ultras. Glad to see you do too. Congrats.

 

[Carl08]

I bought into the hype on the Primus series and bought some. I wasn't totally impressed. I tried out the BS22LR and was rather impressed, so I ended up buying the FS52s and C22 and being happy with them. We had a lot of hype on here about the New AAs so I ended up buying a pair of them too and I was definitely impressed. So there is something to the hype, but likewise there's always something new coming out.

The BS22s are amazing for their price which lead me to the uni-fi speakers.

 

[Carl08]

Love my Ultras. Glad to see you do too. Congrats.

Thanks. I'm really impressed them. The soundstage is so wide

 

[slipperybidness]

I bought into the hype on the Primus series and bought some. I wasn't totally impressed. I tried out the BS22LR and was rather impressed, so I ended up buying the FS52s and C22 and being happy with them. We had a lot of hype on here about the New AAs so I ended up buying a pair of them too and I was definitely impressed. So there is something to the hype, but likewise there's always something new coming out.

I bought a pair of the P362 (I liked the silver face better on the P362 vs P363).

These now serve as stands for my Philharmonitors

I hook up the P363 from time to time and tried both the Phils and P363 in the living room when I had to get my GE T2 amp replaced. But, for the most part they are currently keeping me from having to purchase stands. Eventually, the P363 will make a great workshop speaker (when I can finally get a workshop).

 

[Beave]

I just received a set of the SVS Ultra bookshelf speakers to compare against my Elac UF5s. After about an hour of listening, I've determined that the Ultras are spacious in sound and neutral while my UF5s sound warm but muffled in comparison. I'll be keeping the Ultras and selling my UF5s and UFCenter. I was hoping that the Elacs would have a better showing. Oh well.

How are you doing the comparison? Immediate switching back and forth, or do you have to disconnect one set of speakers and connect the other set (thus leading to a delay of a few minutes)?

And are you doing any level matching? I think the SVS Ultras are a relatively high sensitivity for a bookshelf speaker of their size. I don't know about the Elac's sensitivity. Do they seem comparably loud when side-by-side? If their sensitivity is more than a dB or two different, that difference may make them sound more different than they really are.

 

[Pogre]

How are you doing the comparison? Immediate switching back and forth, or do you have to disconnect one set of speakers and connect the other set (thus leading to a delay of a few minutes)?

And are you doing any level matching? I think the SVS Ultras are a relatively high sensitivity for a bookshelf speaker of their size. I don't know about the Elac's sensitivity. Do they seem comparably loud when side-by-side? If their sensitivity is more than a dB or two different, that difference may make them sound more different than they really are.

I think post 41 started it off.

 

[PENG]

I have never listened any SVS speakers but I am impressed with their seemingly informative specs. As far as I know they are the only one that actually tell you a little more about their sensitivity. Most others will only say something like 88 dB/1W/1m or 88 dB/2.83V/1m

 

[Beave]

I think post 41 started it off.

Huh? I don't follow how that thread answers my questions.

 

[KEW]

How are you doing the comparison? Immediate switching back and forth, or do you have to disconnect one set of speakers and connect the other set (thus leading to a delay of a few minutes)?

And are you doing any level matching? I think the SVS Ultras are a relatively high sensitivity for a bookshelf speaker of their size. I don't know about the Elac's sensitivity. Do they seem comparably loud when side-by-side? If their sensitivity is more than a dB or two different, that difference may make them sound more different than they really are.

Beave,
Not everyone has the resources to test under the conditions you are specifying.
Those factors are important, however, it also depends on how close the speakers are. For example, I could tell the Fluance Signature Bookshelf speakers were not competitive when they were the first and only speaker I had heard that morning. I went ahead and did a proper A-B level matched comparison with instant switching to help me get more specific with what was wrong with the sound.
I can say that I enjoyed the Philharmonic Audio AA's ($210 plus shipping) more than the UniFi Bookshelf speakers in a direct comparison. However, the Ultras are a better speaker than the AA's, so IMHO, there is quite a gap between these two speakers!
However, in all fairness, Carl is comparing a $1000 pair of bookshelf speakers (Ultra) against a $1000 pair of towers (Uni-Fi). The Uni-Fi bookshelf speakers cost $500/pair. So, he is getting the benefit of the higher quality design and components associated with a well designed speaker that is twice as expensive.
As long as the Bookshelf speakers play loud enough and if you use a sub, there is not too much reason to invest money in the cost of the tower. That money typically goes to:
1) One or more duplicate drivers as compared to the bookshelf speakers (and I would assume additional crossover components are required)
2) Cost of a bigger cabinet including additional bracing (and it is still liable to resonate more than smaller cabinet).
3) Additional freight and shipping costs (as well as additional packing materials).

None of the above do much to improve sound quality aside from added efficiency and slightly lower response.

With that said, the Ultra Towers are the exception as they add dual 8" woofers for solid bass down to 28Hz! But still, If you have a good sub, what is the point? The Ultra BS get down to 45Hz, which is low enough to properly crossover to any decent sub without problems.
If you are old school 2.0 stereo, that is where the Ultra Towers would shine!

 

[Pogre]

Huh? I don't follow how that thread answers my questions.

I don't think hardcore, level matched A/B comparisons were on the agenda to begin with. Not everyone is set up for it. I can usually determine whether or not I like a speaker without having to go to extremes.

 

[highfigh]

I just received a set of the SVS Ultra bookshelf speakers to compare against my Elac UF5s. After about an hour of listening, I've determined that the Ultras are spacious in sound and neutral while my UF5s sound warm but muffled in comparison. I'll be keeping the Ultras and selling my UF5s and UFCenter. I was hoping that the Elacs would have a better showing. Oh well.

You defeated Audyssey, right?

 

[Beave]

Beave,
Not everyone has the resources to test under the conditions you are specifying.
...

I agree with nearly all you wrote. I was just curious about test conditions.

I've done many A-B speaker comparisons in my home (owned probably 15 pairs of speakers the last 6 or 8 years), both level-matched and non-level-matched. If one speaker's sensitivity is quite a bit higher than the other - say 3 or 4 dB or more difference - then the louder speaker almost always sounds so much more clear and more punchy - unless one speaker is just WAY better than the other. In the case of two somewhat comparable quality speakers, often (but not always) the louder speaker sounds better. Compensating for different speaker sensitivities can level the playing field in the cases where it was skewed heavily.

So, again, I wouldn't be surprised that the SVS would win. But for it to be a fair fight, the levels need to be pretty close (exactly how close, and how level-matching of speakers is done, is another story). IF - and again, I don't know - but IF the SVS speakers were considerably louder, then they had an unfair advantage.

 

[KEW]

I agree with nearly all you wrote. I was just curious about test conditions.

I've done many A-B speaker comparisons in my home (owned probably 15 pairs of speakers the last 6 or 8 years), both level-matched and non-level-matched. If one speaker's sensitivity is quite a bit higher than the other - say 3 or 4 dB or more difference - then the louder speaker almost always sounds so much more clear and more punchy - unless one speaker is just WAY better than the other. In the case of two somewhat comparable quality speakers, often (but not always) the louder speaker sounds better. Compensating for different speaker sensitivities can level the playing field in the cases where it was skewed heavily.

So, again, I wouldn't be surprised that the SVS would win. But for it to be a fair fight, the levels need to be pretty close (exactly how close, and how level-matching of speakers is done, is another story). IF - and again, I don't know - but IF the SVS speakers were considerably louder, then they had an unfair advantage.

Since I can level match (within 1 dB) I have heard the advantages given to the louder speaker. With two very closely matched loudspeakers, I will turn up the speaker I like less by 1 dB to validate that the differences I heard are still there and not just a matter of one being slightly louder than the other. Instant switching between speakers makes even 1 dB pretty obvious.

 

[Beave]

How do you do your level-matching?

What material? A test tone? Pink noise? Band-limited pink noise?

And what is your measuring device, and what settings on it?

 

[cantlosesportsbetz]

Beave,
Not everyone has the resources to test under the conditions you are specifying.
Those factors are important, however, it also depends on how close the speakers are. For example, I could tell the Fluance Signature Bookshelf speakers were not competitive when they were the first and only speaker I had heard that morning. I went ahead and did a proper A-B level matched comparison with instant switching to help me get more specific with what was wrong with the sound.
I can say that I enjoyed the Philharmonic Audio AA's ($210 plus shipping) more than the UniFi Bookshelf speakers in a direct comparison. However, the Ultras are a better speaker than the AA's, so IMHO, there is quite a gap between these two speakers!
However, in all fairness, Carl is comparing a $1000 pair of bookshelf speakers (Ultra) against a $1000 pair of towers (Uni-Fi). The Uni-Fi bookshelf speakers cost $500/pair. So, he is getting the benefit of the higher quality design and components associated with a well designed speaker that is twice as expensive.
As long as the Bookshelf speakers play loud enough and if you use a sub, there is not too much reason to invest money in the cost of the tower. That money typically goes to:
1) One or more duplicate drivers as compared to the bookshelf speakers (and I would assume additional crossover components are required)
2) Cost of a bigger cabinet including additional bracing (and it is still liable to resonate more than smaller cabinet).
3) Additional freight and shipping costs (as well as additional packing materials).

None of the above do much to improve sound quality aside from added efficiency and slightly lower response.

With that said, the Ultra Towers are the exception as they add dual 8" woofers for solid bass down to 28Hz! But still, If you have a good sub, what is the point? The Ultra BS get down to 45Hz, which is low enough to properly crossover to any decent sub without problems.
If you are old school 2.0 stereo, that is where the Ultra Towers would shine!

REPLY: What's the point? For the record, crossed over at 80hz( speakers and sub both coupled well with the room at critical crossover freq) , a full range tower typically is still more dynamic and efficient than its bookshelf version, .. even when you STILL cross the towers over to a powered sub!!
So YES, there is a difference. This is even more true when considering inefficient, low sensitivity, and inefficient loudspeakers