My turntable isnt bright enough

[SavidSelim]

Hello. I have a Pioneer PL-707 turntable with a Grado Green cart. It is running through a NAD receiver via preout to an Alesis power amp and finally to B&W bookshelves.

Problem:
My turntable isnt nearly as bright and detailed as my PC via my M-Audio USB interface. Is the Grado Green known as a subdued sounding cartridge? My turntable has a composite (plastic) tone arm. Could it be the phono section in the NAD? I cant remember if my Yammy was similar.

any ideas??

Thanks!

 

[highfigh]

Hello. I have a Pioneer PL-707 turntable with a Grado Green cart. It is running through a NAD receiver via preout to an Alesis power amp and finally to B&W bookshelves.

Problem:
My turntable isnt nearly as bright and detailed as my PC via my M-Audio USB interface. Is the Grado Green known as a subdued sounding cartridge? My turntable has a composite (plastic) tone arm. Could it be the phono section in the NAD? I cant remember if my Yammy was similar.

any ideas??

Thanks!

If you're comparing a turntable to MP3 files, especially when they have been recorded at a low bit rate, you'll need to find a better reference. The cartridge may not be considered 'bright' on its own but when you have gotten used to hearing other sources that are 'bright', the cartridge will sound muffled. You might want to have the stylus checked for dirt (they all accumulate it) and check the alignment.

What kind of turntable is it? The tonearm is critically important. If the tonearm is carbon fiber or some kinds of composite, it's not a bad thing.

 

[SavidSelim]

i listen to mostly flac audio and high bitrate mp3s. i use foobar and vlc, the spectogram thing looks pretty flat but the high frequencies are still not reaching the same level as the rest. i like the sound coming from my PC.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/PIONEER/PL707/PL707.html

this is the TT i have. it seems like it might like the MC carts better as that is what it shipped with. when i got it, it had a tired adcom crosscoil MC cart.

would a high output cart enhance the higher range?

gracias!

 

[highfigh]

How old is the Grado? If it's old, the suspension is probably pretty stiff and that will definitely cost you a lot of the highs. There's nothing wrong with the turntable, although you might want to find out if that model has a muting circuit (some did) and if it does, it may need to be checked out.

Check out the Denon cartridges- if you have a moving coil preamp, the DL-110 is a lot of bang for the buck and the high end is nice. I had an old DL-103d for a long time and while it still works, its suspension is old and with my new DL-110, the highs came right back to normal.

 

[SavidSelim]

my preamp is only able to use MM carts. I am unaware of the age of the cart. I got it "brand new" with another TT on craigslist. It was still in the box so i assumed it was still new. i have a stylus brush and cleaning solution. i will clean my stylus, but i have cleaned it before.

this is frustrating because my buddy with a very cheap technics, a cheap sansui receiver and an ortofon cart has much more high frequency response. granted, i dont know where his EQ is set. mine is always flat.

thanks!!

 

[highfigh]

my preamp is only able to use MM carts. I am unaware of the age of the cart. I got it "brand new" with another TT on craigslist. It was still in the box so i assumed it was still new. i have a stylus brush and cleaning solution. i will clean my stylus, but i have cleaned it before.

this is frustrating because my buddy with a very cheap technics, a cheap sansui receiver and an ortofon cart has much more high frequency response. granted, i dont know where his EQ is set. mine is always flat.

thanks!!

'New' may have been written to mean 'unused' but an old, unused cartridge won't sound good. Have you checked/reset the tracking weight and anti-skate force? That may help.

If there's a way to try your turntable with his system and his through yours, you may find where the problem lies.

How about a description of what you hear- do you hear cymbals well? What about other instruments? It could very well be in the phono section of the NAD.

 

[ahblaza]

How old is the Grado? If it's old, the suspension is probably pretty stiff and that will definitely cost you a lot of the highs. There's nothing wrong with the turntable, although you might want to find out if that model has a muting circuit (some did) and if it does, it may need to be checked out.

Check out the Denon cartridges- if you have a moving coil preamp, the DL-110 is a lot of bang for the buck and the high end is nice. I had an old DL-103d for a long time and while it still works, its suspension is old and with my new DL-110, the highs came right back to normal.

highfigh, the Denon DL-110 is a high output MC which I use connected to the MM input on my phono preamp, I don't think the OP needs a moving coil preamp, correct me if I'm wrong. By the way the 110 is delightful and the highs are as you say are
right on, not overly bright, mine took about ten hours to shine. I use a 2.0 g tracking force, how about you?
Cheers

 

[markw]

Just some random thoughts...

1) "Bright" and "detailed" are often thought to mean the same thing. They do not.

2) "Bright" is a relative term, kinda like salty. I'm very sensitive to the taste of salt and very rarely use it while my cousin can take the top off of a salt shaker and dump it on a steak.

3) Be very wary of "brand new" (more-so if listed in quotes) stuff on Ebay/Craigslist, particularly if it's not in the original sealed package and/or lacking a receipt. That smacks of "minty".

4) When dialing in the tracking force, shoot for the higher end of the range. Too low does you no favors.

5) Generally, a properly working Grado cartridge (and phono-preamp) will provide a smooth, pleasing response with no major accentuation or reticence in the audible frequency range.

 

[highfigh]

highfigh, the Denon DL-110 is a high output MC which I use connected to the MM input on my phono preamp, I don't think the OP needs a moving coil preamp, correct me if I'm wrong. By the way the 110 is delightful and the highs are as you say are
right on, not overly bright, mine took about ten hours to shine. I use a 2.0 g tracking force, how about you?
Cheers

I'm at about 1.7g and even though it's a "high output" MC cartridge, it's still about half the voltage of most MM models. I'd really like to see Denon add a MC section to their receivers. How much could it possibly add at the OEM stage, anyway?

 

[ahblaza]

I'm at about 1.7g and even though it's a "high output" MC cartridge, it's still about half the voltage of most MM models. I'd really like to see Denon add a MC section to their receivers. How much could it possibly add at the OEM stage, anyway?

I realize it's voltage is much less than my Shure MM, but the denon 110 operating manual says to use the MM input. I have an outboard phono preamp that I use that has both MC and MM inputs. Do you think I would be better off using the MC input rather than the MM input for the 110, I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Jeff

 

[ahblaza]

1) "Bright" and "detailed" are often thought to mean the same thing. They do not.

2) "Bright" is a relative term, kinda like salty. I'm very sensitive to the taste of salt and very rarely use it while my cousin can take the top off of a salt shaker and dump it on a steak.

3) Be very wary of "brand new" (more-so if listed in quotes) stuff on Ebay/Craigslist, particularly if it's not in the original sealed package and/or lacking a receipt. That smacks of "minty".

4) When dialing in the tracking force, shoot for the higher end of the range. Too low does you no favors.

5) Generally, a properly working Grado cartridge (and phono-preamp) will provide a smooth, pleasing response with no major accentuation or reticence in the audible frequency range.

Mark, I am guilty of the detailed and bright analogy, but your salt example cleared that up, I thank you. What's your thoughts on using the Denon DL-110 with the MM input vrs. the MC? I believe the output voltage to be 1.6v. I have the option of using the MM or MC inputs on my preamp. I also have the tracking force towards the higher range of the cart, I do know that too light can cause more damage than lower. Thanks.
Jeff

 

[TLS Guy]

Hello. I have a Pioneer PL-707 turntable with a Grado Green cart. It is running through a NAD receiver via preout to an Alesis power amp and finally to B&W bookshelves.

Problem:
My turntable isnt nearly as bright and detailed as my PC via my M-Audio USB interface. Is the Grado Green known as a subdued sounding cartridge? My turntable has a composite (plastic) tone arm. Could it be the phono section in the NAD? I cant remember if my Yammy was similar.

any ideas??

Thanks!

I have looked into the Grado Green. I can find no evidence that it has HF attenuation, if anything the reverse.

Have you by any chance extended the turntable leads? This is something you can not do. Cartridges are very sensitive to loading capacitance and small changes in lead capacitance can have a big effect.

The other possibility is that the RIAA equalization curve of your your NAD receiver is not accurate. This is not a rare in receiver phono stages.

 

[highfigh]

I realize it's voltage is much less than my Shure MM, but the denon 110 operating manual says to use the MM input. I have an outboard phono preamp that I use that has both MC and MM inputs. Do you think I would be better off using the MC input rather than the MM input for the 110, I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Jeff

I find the output voltage of "high output" MC cartridges extremely frustrating because it's really easy for someone to switch sources without reducing the volume control's position. It's in-between the two and I think it demonstrates a serious lack of forethought by any manufacturer that does this. Unless the MC input has a gain control, it's doubtful that you'll end up with the correct audio level.

 

[TLS Guy]

I find the output voltage of "high output" MC cartridges extremely frustrating because it's really easy for someone to switch sources without reducing the volume control's position. It's in-between the two and I think it demonstrates a serious lack of forethought by any manufacturer that does this. Unless the MC input has a gain control, it's doubtful that you'll end up with the correct audio level.

High output MC cartridges are designed to see an impedance of 47 K ohms, just like an MM.

A low output MC cartridges are designed to see an input impedance of 10 ohms.

A high output type connected to an MC input will not sound right, due to improper load. Also the MC inputs are designed for an input sensitivity of 0.3 volts and a high input type will clip the input.

 

[ahblaza]

High output MC cartridges are designed to see an impedance of 47 K ohms, just like an MM.

A low output MC cartridges are designed to see an input impedance of 10 ohms.

A high output type connected to an MC input will not sound right, due to improper load. Also the MC inputs are designed for an input sensitivity of 0.3 volts and a high input type will clip the input.

Thanks Mark,
I did some research last night and came to the same conclusion that you have just mentioned, I use the MM input on my phono preamp for the DL-110 and in my receiver I can adjust levels for each input, so I try to level match all sources so I don't have the problem of excess output levels when I switch from turntable and other sources. Thanks my friend.
Jeff

 

[highfigh]

High output MC cartridges are designed to see an impedance of 47 K ohms, just like an MM.

A low output MC cartridges are designed to see an input impedance of 10 ohms.

A high output type connected to an MC input will not sound right, due to improper load. Also the MC inputs are designed for an input sensitivity of 0.3 volts and a high input type will clip the input.

Right, and that's why I can't see why a company like Denon, which makes both types, doesn't make their upper end receivers with the ability to handle both correctly.

This is the only high output MC cartridge I have owned- all of the other preamps I had came with MC and MM stages.

 

[SavidSelim]

so back to the point.... i am going to see if my bud's technics sounds similar to mine. if it does, i suspect the phono section in the NAD is funky. the difference in the high frequencies is still noticable through the headphone out on the NAD. the TT leads and wiring is all original. Could my TT interconnects be suspect? sometimes one channel cuts in and out, but i havent had a chance to take it apart and fix it.

thanks!!

 

[highfigh]

so back to the point.... i am going to see if my bud's technics sounds similar to mine. if it does, i suspect the phono section in the NAD is funky. the difference in the high frequencies is still noticable through the headphone out on the NAD. the TT leads and wiring is all original. Could my TT interconnects be suspect? sometimes one channel cuts in and out, but i havent had a chance to take it apart and fix it.

thanks!!

Assuming the turntable has the 1/4" bayonet mounted headshell, remove the headshell and look at the contacts to see if they're corroded or just funky. You can use a pencil eraser to clean them- it's slightly abrasive and it works great for this. It's also possible that the leads on the headshell have been flexed too many times and have broken inside the insulation. If you only have one or two strands left, it won't be right. Fortunately, replacement leads are available.