My First Home Theatre - Seeking assistance with which AVR

Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
Group delay has never been a major factor in the low frequency performance of loudspeakers.
I always though the consensus was that below 1.5 cycles for a subwoofer is inaudible but above that you run into issues? You know a lot more than I do about it, but I've seen Shady state several times a good sub should be below 1.5 cycles, so I always just assumed he meant above that would be audible. I know he always includes that metric in his review measurements.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
I always though the consensus was that below 1.5 cycles for a subwoofer is inaudible but above that you run into issues? You know a lot more than I do about it, but I've seen Shady state several times a good sub should be below 1.5 cycles, so I always just assumed he meant above that would be audible. I know he always includes that metric in his review measurements.
And also, most of the group delay graphs I’ve seen in recent years of quality subs, had the group delay well into frequencies that almost no music would approach. And if the music did even go low enough, it’s very very difficult to tell in those deep frequencies.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
And also, most of the group delay graphs I’ve seen in recent years of quality subs, had the group delay well into frequencies that almost no music would approach. And if the music did even go low enough, it’s very very difficult to tell in those deep frequencies.
That's what I was saying earlier too, but in all honesty I can't say I've ever "heard" group delay so it's not something I've experienced.

You're right tho, I can't recall the last time I saw any sub exceed 1.5 cycles above 20 hz, ported or sealed.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
That's what I was saying earlier too, but in all honesty I can't say I've ever "heard" group delay so it's not something I've experienced.

You're right tho, I can't recall the last time I saw any sub exceed 1.5 cycles above 20 hz, ported or sealed.
For sure. Trying to slay that sealed for music dragon is taking some time. But maybe if we keep at it homes.
 
S

Squigz

Enthusiast
Not much really. Like I said earlier if you can get a better deal for the 6015 that'd be my choice. They're both going to sound the same. Despite the assertions of some receiver brands don't have different sound signatures. The differences are all in the power ratings and feature set. Otherwise they'll all sound far more alike than different.

The 4700 is getting into the big boys, but 6015 is right there too and pretty much equal.
Heya, while I wait for a response to my email (won't be for another 5 hours at least, so don't hold your breath:
Since the Surround AI feature in Yamaha's IS something I am genuinely curious about, if I CAN get my hands on an A3080 for the same price that I can the Marantz, should I?
I know getting an A6A is out of the question currently, even if it were discounted to within the same(ish) budget.

Again it's what the internet says, but consensus seems to be YPAO isn't as good most of the time. I also read somewhere that it has more fine-tuning available, did earlier models of Denons not allow you to adjust per channel (pretty sure you can now).

I do NOT know what I'm doing when it comes to room setup and calibration (OK, I get some of the theory, but have never done it before).
I am happy to learn and experiment, which I will be doing regardless. If it's not THAT hard to get YPAO plus manual to the same point Aud plus manual can, what other differences / advantages / disadvantages may I have in one over the other?
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
I always though the consensus was that below 1.5 cycles for a subwoofer is inaudible but above that you run into issues? You know a lot more than I do about it, but I've seen Shady state several times a good sub should be below 1.5 cycles, so I always just assumed he meant above that would be audible. I know he always includes that metric in his review measurements.
The group delay is in time domain, and is within the 2 millisecond detection treshold for a loudspeaker, as per tests which were done by experts.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Heya, while I wait for a response to my email (won't be for another 5 hours at least, so don't hold your breath:
Since the Surround AI feature in Yamaha's IS something I am genuinely curious about, if I CAN get my hands on an A3080 for the same price that I can the Marantz, should I?
I know getting an A6A is out of the question currently, even if it were discounted to within the same(ish) budget.

Again it's what the internet says, but consensus seems to be YPAO isn't as good most of the time. I also read somewhere that it has more fine-tuning available, did earlier models of Denons not allow you to adjust per channel (pretty sure you can now).

I do NOT know what I'm doing when it comes to room setup and calibration (OK, I get some of the theory, but have never done it before).
I am happy to learn and experiment, which I will be doing regardless. If it's not THAT hard to get YPAO plus manual to the same point Aud plus manual can, what other differences / advantages / disadvantages may I have in one over the other?
No experience with Surround AI feature, have read a couple nice things about it, don't know if it's really any different from a Dolby Surround or DTS upmixer, tho (at least that's what I think it is closest to). I look at YPAO as not being quite as good with subs as Audyssey, but you can use the Yamaha's PEQ on top of YPAO, whereas with Audyssey if you want to use the graphic eq that D&M avrs come with, you'll have to turn Audyssey off (and I've done that, much prefer Audyssey). I definitely think an A3080 is still a very nice avr, I just don't want to speak "Yamaha" as Bill mentioned earlier :)
 
S

Squigz

Enthusiast
No experience with Surround AI feature, have read a couple nice things about it, don't know if it's really any different from a Dolby Surround or DTS upmixer, tho (at least that's what I think it is closest to). I look at YPAO as not being quite as good with subs as Audyssey, but you can use the Yamaha's PEQ on top of YPAO, whereas with Audyssey if you want to use the graphic eq that D&M avrs come with, you'll have to turn Audyssey off (and I've done that, much prefer Audyssey). I definitely think an A3080 is still a very nice avr, I just don't want to speak "Yamaha" as Bill mentioned earlier :)
Ohh. So with YPAO, you can run it, tweak it in manaul, and also use their EQ,
But with Audyssey, you run it, can still tweak it in manual to the same degree? But can't use the EQ at the same time?
I thought the manual settings available in Audyssey would allow you to have a full EQ per channel?
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
Ohh. So with YPAO, you can run it, tweak it in manaul, and also use their EQ,
But with Audyssey, you run it, can still tweak it in manual to the same degree? But can't use the EQ at the same time?
I thought the manual settings available in Audyssey would allow you to have a full EQ per channel?
The Audyssey editor app gives you full control over your frequency response curve. You run setup using the app then you can view your room curve, make changes to it and change basic settings.

rb2-3y.png


Subs, Nearfield Bridged 2-Ay.png


Subs, Nearfield Bridged 2-C.png
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Ohh. So with YPAO, you can run it, tweak it in manaul, and also use their EQ,
But with Audyssey, you run it, can still tweak it in manual to the same degree? But can't use the EQ at the same time?
I thought the manual settings available in Audyssey would allow you to have a full EQ per channel?
You can use the Yamaha's peq on top of ypao, but can't use D&M' graphic eq on top of audyssey (but can use the Audyssey editor app to tweak as Pogre points out, and even another app called ratbuddysey). By manual settings being basic choices for bass management, levels and delay after running ypao/audyssey they're fairly equivalent I'd think...
 
S

Squigz

Enthusiast
You can use the Yamaha's peq on top of ypao, but can't use D&M' graphic eq on top of audyssey (but can use the Audyssey editor app to tweak as Pogre points out, and even another app called ratbuddysey). By manual settings being basic choices for bass management, levels and delay after running ypao/audyssey they're fairly equivalent I'd think...
I'd LIKE to be able to tweak and play, though I don't know how much I will. I'd hope that the default auto settings of either should do an OK job in my room considering it is a simple rectangle with nothing extraordinary to note.
I heard you can change Yamaha EQ on the fly with the app in the middle of listening, and change it per channel where as all you get to do is set your own target curve on Audyssey. I'll be going into the store tomorrow when I (finally) get back home after working away, and I'll have a chat and see if they can show me around the different software, in case that sways me in either direction.

Though that said, speaking of swaying due to Room Cal:
There's an Anthem MRX 720 for $3000AUD at one of the other stores. Pretty good! 11 channels of processing. Only 7 amp though. I think I will discuss this with them too (same store, different outlet, see if he can chat with them over price). If the market is heavily straying towards either stereo music listening, or surround 8K/VRR gaming, Anthems like the 720 might be harder to sell given the lack of video capabilities (but perfect for me right now!). That would mean getting a 5 ch power amp or 2 2ch power amps, probably for my overheads. I can't find any of the cheap ones on websites for stores in Perth but I'll ask. I don't mind getting something that'll do just fine online.

There is something to be said about leaving myself room to upgrade later though! If I get an Anthem and full 7.1.4 surround sound right away, I'm setting the bar pretty high hahaha. Maybe pick up a 2nd sub later, and then what?
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
You can copy Audyssey "Flat" to manual eq and adjust on the fly just like Yamaha. The editor app is if you really wanna get serious about it and make precise adjustments, ideally based on measurements taken with a calibrated mic. My bass right now is +/- 2 dB from 115 hz all the way down to 16 hz using the app.

06-22-20 final fr-1.jpg


This is what it started with.

FL-FR + Subs Crossover Overlay-1.jpg


It's an older sweep, but still accurate for my room.
 
S

Squigz

Enthusiast
You can copy Audyssey "Flat" to manual eq and adjust on the fly just like Yamaha. The editor app is if you really wanna get serious about it and make precise adjustments, ideally based on measurements taken with a calibrated mic. My bass right now is +/- 2 dB from 115 hz all the way down to 16 hz using the app.

View attachment 52053

This is what it started with.

View attachment 52054

It's an older sweep, but still accurate for my room.
Awesome!

I... Don't know how nor have the equipment to do any other tests myself afterwards, though I can interpret the curves you've posted so that's a start.
Super good to know that it can be tweaked further if I do get a reference mic and want to play my own tones and see how it's actually performing (can I do this with the mic it comes with and Audyssey? Get the "before" and "after" curves?

I'm getting more and more excited. Earlier I caught myself day-dreaming about experimenting with crossover frequencies instead of working!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
Awesome!

I... Don't know how nor have the equipment to do any other tests myself afterwards, though I can interpret the curves you've posted so that's a start.
Super good to know that it can be tweaked further if I do get a reference mic and want to play my own tones and see how it's actually performing (can I do this with the mic it comes with and Audyssey? Get the "before" and "after" curves?

I'm getting more and more excited. Earlier I caught myself day-dreaming about experimenting with crossover frequencies instead of working!
As far as just running setup and not touching anything goes (except crossovers and large to small speaker setting- something you'd want to check for any brand) I think Audyssey does a great job in my room.

Look at that "before" chart and compare to this.

06-22-20 multeq only-1.jpg


That's where Audyssey got me all by itself without any tweaking. It's not perfect, but that's pretty durned good for what I had to start with. It sure made the tweaking easier to do.
 
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S

Squigz

Enthusiast
As far as just running setup and not touching anything goes (except crossovers and large to small speaker setting- something you'd want to check for any brand) I think Audyssey does a great job in my room.

Look at that "before" chart and compare to this.

View attachment 52056

That's where Audyssey got me all by itself without any tweaking. It's not perfect, but that's pretty durned good for what I had to start with. It sure made the tweaking easier to do.
At a glance, that looks almost identical to your finished product one above, except for the low end.
I'm intending to tweak the EQ on my sub (it's got the app for it) first, then run Audyssey. Then listen and go from there.
I don't have a mic or software to do that yet though. I'll figure it out later when I go into the shop :)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
The Audyssey mic isn't really good for measurements as you can't use the calibration file baked into Audyssey itself. It may get you close, but a dedicated measurement mic is a better long term tool in any case.

The thing with D&M's graphic eq is you can start with a basic curve by copying it over from Audyssey to the graphic eq, but using it from there on loses the benefit of all the Audyssey filters and you have a limited graphic eq to tweak with. I'd rather use Audyssey XT32 with an app generally in any case. I'd still lean toward D&M largely as I don't want to relearn and speak Yamaha (altho to be fair Denon's older manuals were so difficult that a guy made a website to translate Denon to English....search batpig and Denon if you're curious :) ).

You might be interested in this review of Audyssey as well as some threads here on AH or avsforum.com....
 
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