Music primary, HT secondary amp question

[KenM10759]

You can see from my signature that I have a 5.1 system with KEF R series as the speakers. I recent weeks I've visited a couple of audio shops and listened to floorstanding speakers of similar level, but rather than powered by an AV receiver they used 2 channel pre and power amp or integrated amp. The amps were all 200 watts per channel or more, on speakers like mine with 86-93 sensitivity and input limits of 150 to 200 watts. Listening at levels I'm inclined to use (can speak with someone 6 feet away at lightly elevated levels, 10 feet from the speakers), they all sounded profoundly better than through Denon/Marantz/Yamaha receivers.

I had been thinking to upgrade later this year to something like an Anthem AVM60 and 7 channel power amp. Now I'm reconsidering because I truly don't watch many movies and rarely use my system for anything but 2.1 music. The other day I listened to a Hegel H360 integrated amp on some small Linn floorstanding speakers that appeared to be competitive with my R500 but the difference was far more than just speakers to my ears. At even low volumes the overall depth of detail in playing familiar music was just so far ahead of what I normally hear from an AV receiver, including my own.

For the little bit of surround sound duty my system is asked to do, it's really quite good (to my ears) and I don't really need more. In talking with the salesman that showed me the Hegel H360 I explained that I didn't need an integrated amp as the pre-outs on the NAD are fine for movies and some music. The overwhelming majority of music I listen to comes through my Bluesound Vault and it has both RCA and optical outputs. With the right 2-channel amp serving my mains, as long as it has optical input and the "home theater bypass" function of the Hegel I should be fine with just that and skip getting a fancy AV pre-amp and multi-channel power amp. Hegel may be well above my budget, but if I consider pooling money I might have spent for the multi-channel option I could probably justify it. What would you do?

 

[GO-NAD!]

Well, have you thought about the influence of the room on what you are hearing? That has to be taken into account. You say that you were also listening to different speakers at the dealer's showroom. They might have been similar to your KEFs, but the fact remains, they were not your KEFs. That, plus the different rooms, would been the most important variables.

The only price I could find for the H360 was $5500. That's a huge investment to make when you haven't eliminated other factors. Unless you can get a no-risk home trial for such a component, I would never make that purchase.

I understand that you don't listen at high volume, so I would personally not count on hearing any appreciable difference by changing your AVR for a higher-powered amp. That NAD should have sufficient
headroom to drive your speakers in 2-channel mode. But, if you do need more power, I believe that NAD has pre-outs to incorporate an external power amp. That
would be your most cost-effective option, to my mind.

 

[PENG]

For the little bit of surround sound duty my system is asked to do, it's really quite good (to my ears) and I don't really need more. In talking with the salesman that showed me the Hegel H360 I explained that I didn't need an integrated amp as the pre-outs on the NAD are fine for movies and some music. The overwhelming majority of music I listen to comes through my Bluesound Vault and it has both RCA and optical outputs. With the right 2-channel amp serving my mains, as long as it has optical input and the "home theater bypass" function of the Hegel I should be fine with just that and skip getting a fancy AV pre-amp and multi-channel power amp. Hegel may be well above my budget, but if I consider pooling money I might have spent for the multi-channel option I could probably justify it. What would you do?

I might have mentioned most of the following before in response to your other similar posts but wouldn't hurt repeating.

- I have listened to the R900 and LS50 powered by Hegel integrated and separate amps in the dealer's show rooms, the LS50 sounded great even with the H80. Also heard the LS50 and R500 with different high end amps.
- I have tried them with my 4BSST and A23 with the 840E preamp (fully differential).
- Have tried multiple times comparing between Denon 3805 with the two power amps, and the AVR-3805 on its own. Also tried them briefly with a pair of Marantz separates.

Found no audible differences in sound quality overall so now I have the 3805 powering the R900 and the A23/840E powering the LS50 with a E15HP.

So to answer your question, I would go for the H360 if you believe what you heard was because of that integrated amp, but I wouldn't let any salesman influence my decision. Once set up in my own system I would compare the sound with and without the H360, and then decide on keeping it or not.

It took me a long time to finally realize that for sound quality only the speakers and the room set the bar. Amps, AVRs really are secondary and you have to be really prone to Placebo effect and also not curious enough to get to the truth by doing comparison listening properly to hear the perceived difference. I dare say anyone who claimed hearing the night and day difference between mid end AVRs and separate amps were not doing their comparison properly, or comparing gear that are not in 100% working order, or both.

Once I realize the truth, it also became obvious if I had followed the logic I would have known better much sooner. For example, even if the Hegel H360 has better specs than the H80, how can it result in audible difference when you look at the specs and measurements of speakers that has much higher distortions? If you look at the frequency response of speakers, and how they vary even if you move a few inches you should also question the validity of claims that the much weaker link (amps) could make any difference at all.

 

[DD66000]

Not surprising at all.
I use a Parasound P7, HK AVR. The P7 provides a much deeper soundstage, and more immersive sound, better detail.
And with quality recordings, a surround sound like output.
The HK AVR sounds good, but lacks in comparison.

 

[KenM10759]

I'm aware of the price of the H360 and unlikely to go that high if I don't get a huge benefit from it. My question is more related to the separation of HT surround from 2.1 channel stereo. Of course the simplest solution is to have two completely separate speaker & amp systems, one for multi-channel surround and one for 2-channel (or 2.1) stereo. I do not have that option.

I know from past discussions with PENG that he's got a lot of experience with both KEF R series and better amps and I am not dismissing that nor his comments. I will just say that *I* am clearly hearing a significant difference in sound quality (within an audio demo room) when directly comparing output of the 16/44 digital file through the receiver of say 80w/ch (2 ch driven) and that of direct from the Bluesound device through a 200w/ch amp. Of course I understand the "apples & oranges" thing of level matching the volume when comparing, and do my best to compare at very similar levels.

So for the very small percentage of surround sound (movies) I might watch and need surround, I now place less value in improving that sound quality. It (5.1 surround) is really quite good now for what I have in it and want to get out of it. With regard to "more critical listening" of music in 2.1 ch I would like to be able to feed the 2-channel amp direct from my Bluesound Vault, completely by-passing the receiver and hopefully still feeding my sub. Is there any amplifier in the 150w/ch to 200w/ch range capable of doing this?

I have become aware that the Vault feeds both it's analog RCA and digital optical outputs simultaneously so I could potentially just have two different feeds to the speakers as they have 2 pairs of binding posts usable as long as they're jumpered correctly. Would there be any conflict in just having (effectively) two different amp systems (receiver and amplifier) feeding speakers...as long as I absolutely DO NOT ever have both on at once? If that's OK I can easily demo an amp and know for sure if it's really that much better in my home, on my speakers.

 

[PENG]

*I* am clearly hearing a significant difference in sound quality (within an audio demo room) when directly comparing output of the 16/44 digital file through the receiver of say 80w/ch (2 ch driven) and that of direct from the Bluesound device through a 200w/ch amp. Of course I understand the "apples & oranges" thing of level matching the volume when comparing, and do my best to compare at very similar levels.

If that's what you were comparing, I bet I could tell the difference too. That's one reason why I would not buy or use a 80W/Ch receiver for my two channel systems. I wouldn't even use one for my HT system.

I would like to be able to feed the 2-channel amp direct from my Bluesound Vault, completely by-passing the receiver and hopefully still feeding my sub. Is there any amplifier in the 150w/ch to 200w/ch range capable of doing this?

You already know the H160 can do it, so can the Parasound Halo Integrated amp that is likely more affordable.

Would there be any conflict in just having (effectively) two different amp systems (receiver and amplifier) feeding speakers...as long as I absolutely DO NOT ever have both on at once? If that's OK I can easily demo an amp and know for sure if it's really that much better in my home, on my speakers.

The key words are as you said: "as long as I absolutely DO NOT ever have both on at once", otherwise yes there can be trouble.

Edit: I strongly suggest you not only do not have both amp and avr on at the same time, but also plug in at the speaker end only one at a time. When you switch amp, just unplug one pair and plug in the other pair, be sure to separate the red and black of the pair disconnected and just sitting there.

 

[DD66000]

Unless you have speakers that are difficult to drive, you will find a quality pre-amp to be more of an improvement over an AVR, than adding a larger power amp.
That is most certainly my experience.

So look for a pre-amp with HT by-pass.
Ones that come to mind are Parasound P5, P7, or the Integrated 2.1.

 

[fmw]

Comparing something you heard in a different location to your memory of something you heard at home is simply meaningless. Sorry but it is. Perhaps you don't like the way your room calibration software responds to your room. If you can disable it, try that. It may do better in your room. After all, what you heard at the dealer didn't have any room calibration and was probably in an acoustically superior room. Or you may like the speakers there better than yours. Amplifiers that aren't clipping rarely have any audible effect on a system and that's a good thing.

 

[KenM10759]

Comparing something you heard in a different location to your memory of something you heard at home is simply meaningless. Sorry but it is. <snip>

Perhaps for you that's true, I have a pretty good memory.

No matter. What I'm going to do is visit my favorite audio dealer who sells NAD, Bryston, Parasound Halo, Hegel and other amps. They know my system, speakers, room and my taste in music so will give me two choice amps to take home amd try with nothing more than a handshake and a diagram of how to set them up. I'll let my ears, ease of operation and budget (in that order) help me make a decision.

 

[fmw]

Sorry, it is meaningless regardless of your memory. You concluded that two different systems in two different locations sound different. So what? You want to believe the reason was an amplifier but that is only a belief. Most differences in systems, as you should know, revolve around speakers and room acoustics. No need to justify an amplifier to me. If you want one, buy one.

 

[KEW]

Would there be any conflict in just having (effectively) two different amp systems (receiver and amplifier) feeding speakers...as long as I absolutely DO NOT ever have both on at once? If that's OK I can easily demo an amp and know for sure if it's really that much better in my home, on my speakers.

While I think it is safe, I would advise you to listen carefully to music you know to be of excellent quality at a low volume before cranking it.
When I setup to compare speakers I Y-split the signal from the CD player into two AVR's. This worked perfectly when both AVR's were on, but later, when I just wanted to listen to one system, I left the other off and heard some low-level distortion. Turning the second AVR on eliminated the issue. So apparently, the signal somehow ran amok in the AVR that was off and contaminated the signal going to the active AVR.

I have no idea if the speaker wires running to an amp turned off would pick up any distortion, but it seems like a possibility!

 

[KenM10759]

Sorry, it is meaningless regardless of your memory. You concluded that two different systems in two different locations sound different. So what? You want to believe the reason was an amplifier but that is only a belief. Most differences in systems, as you should know, revolve around speakers and room acoustics. No need to justify an amplifier to me. If you want one, buy one.

OK, so I'm an idiot and no nothing, learn nothing. Seems I have to explain everything in minute details every time and no matter what I'm wrong. Forget I ever asked. \

In this case I am saying that two different amplification setups with the same source and same speakers in the same place sounded different. I'm not good enough to discern a difference, I gather.

 

[PENG]

Perhaps for you that's true, I have a pretty good memory.

No matter. What I'm going to do is visit my favorite audio dealer who sells NAD, Bryston, Parasound Halo, Hegel and other amps. They know my system, speakers, room and my taste in music so will give me two choice amps to take home amd try with nothing more than a handshake and a diagram of how to set them up. I'll let my ears, ease of operation and budget (in that order) help me make a decision.

If you can go by your ears that's great, if you find it hard to tell the difference, between the 4 you named, I would rank Bryston and Hegel (H160 and up) equally high, followed by NAD and Halo also equal if they fit in the same price bracket.

 

[KenM10759]

Considering an NAD Masters 22 as well.

 

[Latent]

I have become aware that the Vault feeds both it's analog RCA and digital optical outputs simultaneously so I could potentially just have two different feeds to the speakers as they have 2 pairs of binding posts usable as long as they're jumpered correctly. Would there be any conflict in just having (effectively) two different amp systems (receiver and amplifier) feeding speakers...as long as I absolutely DO NOT ever have both on at once? If that's OK I can easily demo an amp and know for sure if it's really that much better in my home, on my speakers.

I would advise against trying this. It may work but not only do you risk damaging something if you power both amps on at the same time and have them fight it out to see who can blow something first but you will probably get some level of distortion from having a powered off amp also connected to the speaker terminals. There is no requirement that powered off amplifiers keep a perfect open circuit on it's speaker outputs (ie infinite resistance and no capacitance or inductance). There will probably be some LCR load of some kind across the terminals and this may cause audible effects on the speakers. Also driving high voltages into the circuit when its not powered on may cause damage somehow.

 

[KenM10759]

I would advise against trying this. It may work but not only do you risk damaging something if you power both amps on at the same time and have them fight it out to see who can blow something first but you will probably get some level of distortion from having a powered off amp also connected to the speaker terminals. There is no requirement that powered off amplifiers keep a perfect open circuit on it's speaker outputs (ie infinite resistance and no capacitance or inductance). There will probably be some LCR load of some kind across the terminals and this may cause audible effects on the speakers. Also driving high voltages into the circuit when its not powered on may cause damage somehow.

Thought that might be the case, so I appreciate your input. Thank you.

I'll try to work out some sort of A-B switch then. Further, I plan to have my son along for the testing to dial in both the current receiver and the 2 channel amp to the exact same SPL using test tones and his meter, only then will I sit down and have him switch back & forth so it's a close to a blind test as possible. The main feature I will be looking for is ease of running the amp (if sound quality does win) for separate 2.1 channel music with the Vault feeding it and the receiver completely off.

 

[Latent]

One solution is to get a power-amp with balance/unblanced selector switch to change between the dual inputs. You connect your AVR pre-outs to the unbalanced RCA input of the amp for your 5.1 setup. And balanced inputs from a stereo Pre-amp. Then to switch between stereo pre-amp->power-Amp mode you just power off your amp and switch the two input selectors on the back of the power amp and you are in Home theater mode. In both modes you will be using your new power amp either way. Also if you want 2.1 and 5.1 with the same Sub-woofer then connect sub pre-outs from both pre-amp and AVR to left-right RCA sub inputs.

Edit: Note that this doesn't solve the auditioning two setups problem but just allows you to have a high end 2.1 setup and re-use it for 5.1 when needed.

Edit2: One other thing to note about this setup is you have to switch BOTH channels at the same time as the amp normally has a balanced/unbalanced selector switch per channel. If you switch just one by mistake you will be listening to half one system and half the other. may be useful to compare them if they had the same input selected on both units but their may be a time delay between the two signal paths.

 

[KenM10759]

Good suggestion though I'm trying to avoid using a stereo pre-amp or integrated amp if possible. I only listen to music through my Bluesound Vault (my library and Tidal sources), and it has a good pre-out but RCA only. I do wish that were an XLR balanced output!

Oh, and for edification: The short term goal is to be sure I've extracted the very most that the R500 mains can deliver in my room environment. If then I believe there's more in the source material, I plan to upgrade the speakers as I'm well aware those have the very most impact on overall sound. I cannot change room shape nor move the speakers (much), and have WAF limitations on room treatments. Having a top quality amp already in place should I upgrade speakers is part of the path to my type of high fidelity sound quality.

 

[Latent]

could then look into a 4xRCA (2xstereo) -> 2xRCA (1xStereo) switching box. There must be something like this available somewhere and it shouldn't cause much signal loss if it is designed properly. Y-split your source pre-out between this box and CD input on AVR. Then connect frount pre-outs from AVR to the second input on switch box. You now have a pure power-amp connected to your DAC or switch to using your AVR for other uses.

Edit: But watch out as KEW found problems with his setup once Y splinting a source device causing distortion when one of the units was powered off so I don't know if this would cause problems somehow.

Edit2: Also just remembered that doing this will make base management a lot harder to work out as you don't have a Pre-amp to help split the sub woofer signal out for you when bypassing the AVR. feeding the signal going to your power amp to the sub inputs may work but then you have to get the AVR to feed all sub signals out the Mains by telling it you have no sub.

Edit3: Examples of audio switching boxes:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=RCA+audio+switcher

Edit4: Example diagram
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5wqaqt4mfidjx27/AVR-PowerAmp Bypass.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ek2mtt9ihmqq9h0/AVR-PowerAmp Bypass with Sub.png?dl=0

 

[KenM10759]

OK, I admit I'm getting lost on your post. Perhaps it would just be better if I sprung for a another pair of R100 and planted them on top of the R500 to use for HT and create a completely separate 2.1 system that just needs me to switch the source to the sub.

The only issue with that is that if I (eventually) swap out the R500 for better, I could lose the "mount" for my HT front mains. The R100 wouldn't sit very securely on top of B&W 802D3, Sonus Faber, Magico, and many others I'd consider.

On the plus side with most of those, I wouldn't need to worry about a sub anymore.