Multiroom AV help!!!

[chumperdink]

Hello all I'm new here and new to Home audio as well. Long story as short as possible.

My wife and I have just built a new home which we are soon to move into. I had always wanted a whole house stereo system which we could not afford on our first home.

That didn't change with this one so rather than take out an extra loan to pay an installer, I decided to try it myself.

1000ft of ethernet line and 800ft of 16/4, and 16/2 speaker cable (I'm learning some lingo lol), and 5 volume controls later here I am.

I think I may have bought the wrong combination of equipment though. I wanted to have a system that could sync both a 5 and 1 surround system, and 5 pairs of other speakers in and outside the home matched to impedence matching volume controls.

My equipment is as follows

Yamaha Aventage rx A 860 reciever(main)
Yamaha Aventage rx A 760 reciver(Zone)
Niles SI2100 amplifier

My plan was to hook the SI2100 to the rx a760 and power 5 pairs of speakers hooked to volume controls.

However the recievers I thought would sync via music cast which they will but how do I get the digital signal to the analog preouts on the reciever to the amplifier so I do not overload the reciever with 5 pairs of speakers pushing the left and right speaker signal? Sorry for the long winded thread but any advice or suggestions are appreciated.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hello all I'm new here and new to Home audio as well. Long story as short as possible.

My wife and I have just built a new home which we are soon to move into. I had always wanted a whole house stereo system which we could not afford on our first home.

That didn't change with this one so rather than take out an extra loan to pay an installer, I decided to try it myself.

1000ft of ethernet line and 800ft of 16/4, and 16/2 speaker cable (I'm learning some lingo lol), and 5 volume controls later here I am.

I think I may have bought the wrong combination of equipment though. I wanted to have a system that could sync both a 5 and 1 surround system, and 5 pairs of other speakers in and outside the home matched to impedence matching volume controls.

My equipment is as follows

Yamaha Aventage rx A 860 reciever(main)
Yamaha Aventage rx A 760 reciver(Zone)
Niles SI2100 amplifier

My plan was to hook the SI2100 to the rx a760 and power 5 pairs of speakers hooked to volume controls.

However the recievers I thought would sync via music cast which they will but how do I get the digital signal to the analog preouts on the reciever to the amplifier so I do not overload the reciever with 5 pairs of speakers pushing the left and right speaker signal? Sorry for the long winded thread but any advice or suggestions are appreciated.

Sorry but you do not understand at all how to do this. You do have the wrong equipment.

First you DO NOT need two receivers.

Second you can absolutely NOT connect a power amplifier like the Niles to a receiver. That will not work and do huge damage.

The best way of doing this is one receiver that has zone 2 preouts. Make sure the receiver sends analog AND digital signals to the zone 2 preout. A lot just send analog signals to zone 2 preouts.

Now you need to connect those preouts to a distribution amp, which needs to be 10 channel.

If you want to have just soft background music you can connect the Niles to zone 2 preout, and then correctly wire the impedance matching volume controls. So there would be five speakers connected to each channel of the Niles. However the best arrangement is to have one amp per speaker, so a 10 channel distribution amp is the ideal solution.

 

[everettT]

You have discovered the age old problem of multi room audio. Analog is still king and very few avrs output digital via zone outs.

 

[chumperdink]

Oh wow thank you guys for the helpful responses. Looks like I am going to have to try and return some equipment and start from square one!! Thanks for not thrashing my ignorance too bad hahaha.

I am gonna research the higher models in the Yamaha series does anyone have any recommendations for a distribution amp.

I still want to use the volume controls that I ran so much wire for. At this point I think I will be ok if these seperate zones are not able to sync.

I appreciate your experience and only wish I would have tried this approach first. As they say hindsight is 20/20.

Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[chumperdink]

Ok some research done, and still as clear as mud.

So I am getting conflicting info on the newer yamaha recievers. What I just found out was that Yamaha recievers with "party mode" have the ability to send a digital source signal through zone 2 pre out, you lose the ability to have seperate sources in each zone with this feature on however. Can anyone confirm this.

Secondly this is directed at TLS guy's response.

If I do find an audio distribution amp, will I still have the ability to control volume from the impedence matching volume controls? Or will I be stuck only able to control the volume for each pair of speakers from the distribution amp only?

Sorry for the ignorance, but even when I'm researching I find it hard to understand the answers to the questions I've already asked. Which leads to more questions lol

Either way I appreciate the help and the responses and patience is much appriciated.

Thanks Again all

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok some research done, and still as clear as mud.

So I am getting conflicting info on the newer yamaha recievers. What I just found out was that Yamaha recievers with "party mode" have the ability to send a digital source signal through zone 2 pre out, you lose the ability to have seperate sources in each zone with this feature on however. Can anyone confirm this.

Secondly this is directed at TLS guy's response.

If I do find an audio distribution amp, will I still have the ability to control volume from the impedance matching volume controls? Or will I be stuck only able to control the volume for each pair of speakers from the distribution amp only?

Sorry for the ignorance, but even when I'm researching I find it hard to understand the answers to the questions I've already asked. Which leads to more questions lol

Either way I appreciate the help and the responses and patience is much appriciated.

Thanks Again all

Since you are not an expert, I think you are about to find out that you may well save money by having a professional installer.

The first point is that receivers are pretty poor for whole home audio.

If you want to use it for digital sources then you need to pick one that will send digital sources to zone 2.

You could connect all your rooms with the impedance controls to the zone 2 receiver amps, but you will have only background power in each room pretty much. Also impedance matching controls not withstanding, this application tends to stress receivers and cause premature failure.

Your best bet is to use a distribution amp from a specialist firm like Russound. Their amps are 8 and 16 channel. Unless you cut out a room you will need the 16 channel.

Yes, you can use the volume controls in the rooms with an amp like that.

The other thing you might consider is the purchase of a ready to go total home audio system, like the Sonos system. This is a wireless system.

 

[herbu]

What I just found out was that Yamaha recievers with "party mode" have the ability to send a digital source signal through zone 2 pre out, you lose the ability to have seperate sources in each zone with this feature on however.

#1 Listen to TLSGuy. He know's what he's talking about.
#2 I think your understanding of "party mode" is correct, and demonstrates the complexity of Zone-2.

I'll try to simplify. An AVR's primary use is to take digital inputs, (like HDMI), do any kind of digital processing required or requested on each channel, convert each channel to analog, amplify them and output to speakers.

Now you turn on Zone-2. You want the AVR to duplicate all that function in parallel with its normal Main Zone operations. No can do.

First the analog amplification is removed. That's why Zone-2 is a preout, not an amplified output, (unless you configure your AVR to give up 2 channels from the Main Zone).

Next, in most AVRs, the digital processing is removed. That's why most AVRs w/ Zone-2 require an analog input. It wants a signal it can simply pass through to the output.
But there are limited cases where some AVRs will use digital inputs for Zone-2. You seem to have found one of these with your "party mode".

Party mode means all-channel-stereo. It turns any input into 2-channel, (stereo). Then it sends the left channel to all of your left speakers. It sends the right channel to all of your right speakers. (It sums left & right for your Center speaker.) So your AVR digital processing has already split the signal into only left & right elements, and can also send them to your Zone-2.

So Zone-2 is not what some people think. It's not like having a second AVR. It can be useful in some situations. It can work for whole house background music. But it is limited, and can limit the primary functions of your AVR. It is why I have both HDMI and analog cables from my bluray player and sat receiver to my AVR.

 

[chumperdink]

Thanks for all the reply's all.

This is truly a humbling experience. I was so engaged by the thought of musiccast for the Yamaha receivers. My thoughts were I would hook each receiver via ethernet and use my smart phone to control each receiver through wifi, stream music via bluetooth to main receiver, and sync them via musiccast. I did not understand the limitations of these receivers.

I also thought I would amplify the zone 2 preout signal on the second receiver with the niles stereo si2100 amplifier. I would use a niles speaker distribution hub (VCS HUB8) tying all the speaker pairs together.
Ha it all seemed perfectly executed in my mind. Live and learn.

Just a few more questions and I will be out of you guys hair!!

TLS Guy using the distribution amp am I right to assume I would be wiring each pair of speakers for Zone 2 (5 pairs) individually to each left/right outputs on the distribution amp? Secondly what source can I use to connect to the Distribution amp? Will I need to get a cd/mp3 player? Is there any way I can stream the music from my phone to the distribution amp via bluetooth?

Thanks again all and Herbu thanks for dumbing down the party mode for me!!!

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for all the reply's all.

This is truly a humbling experience. I was so engaged by the thought of musiccast for the Yamaha receivers. My thoughts were I would hook each receiver via ethernet and use my smart phone to control each receiver through wifi, stream music via bluetooth to main receiver, and sync them via musiccast. I did not understand the limitations of these receivers.

I also thought I would amplify the zone 2 preout signal on the second receiver with the niles stereo si2100 amplifier. I would use a niles speaker distribution hub (VCS HUB8) tying all the speaker pairs together.
Ha it all seemed perfectly executed in my mind. Live and learn.

Just a few more questions and I will be out of you guys hair!!

TLS Guy using the distribution amp am I right to assume I would be wiring each pair of speakers for Zone 2 (5 pairs) individually to each left/right outputs on the distribution amp? Secondly what source can I use to connect to the Distribution amp? Will I need to get a cd/mp3 player? Is there any way I can stream the music from my phone to the distribution amp via bluetooth?

Thanks again all and Herbu thanks for dumbing down the party mode for me!!!

Yes, you are correct, each speaker would have its own amp channel.

You know you might want to rethink whether you want to do this at all. I think these whole house audio systems have had their day, if they ever had one.

I recently saw a survey showing people really did not use these systems much after the novelty wore off.

In these days of Chromecasting from phones tablets and laptops, you can make the argument that the time for these systems is passed.

Do you really need music coming from the ceilings where ever you are? Quiet spaces have their value.

We are lucky enough to have a couple of homes. None have whole house audio. Both homes have two AV systems. My wife and I do not always want to watch or listen to the same program.

In our main house we have a no holes barred studio/theater, and a nice two channel system with subs on the lowest level where the wood fireplace is. We can Chrome cast to this system. The main system uses and HTPC which can capture virtually anything out there. Quality is excellent and light years better than anything that would come out of a ceiling.

In the main level kitchen my wife has a player she can dock her iPod in and get her music. This works just fine.

In the city townhome we have the main system, which is 3.1. and in a small living room we have a small 2.0 system, which we largely Chromecast to and the grandchildren can game with. Both systems have Chromecast and the larger system also has a Sony Media player as well as BD. We have cut the cable here recently. My wife has another iPod dock in the kitchen.
This all works well.

Take a step back and take a look at what you really need and above all how to get the best quality and versatility. And finally my advice is that quality always trumps quantity. Far better to have fewer good quality rooms, than tons of awful ones with inferior sound from the Heaven's.

Talk this through with your family and re asses what you really need, not what you have previously thought you wanted.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Just a question: is this a spec house you bought or designed by an architect?
If the latter, I am curious if you discussed your audio needs with the architect so at least some prewiring
could have been made.
Now it seems that you may be remodeling before you move in.

 

[chumperdink]

Mtrycrafts the house was designed by architect, the audio design was put in by yours truly.

The whole house house been wired with ethernet, and 16 guage speaker cable. 16/4 to 5 volume controls, and 16/2 to 5 pairs of speakers through the house inside and out.

The speakers, volume controls are all installed, I just need to aquire the right equipment to get me closest to my original goal.

TLS Guy I appreciate your words of wisdom but I have gone past the point of no return. Hopefully I can find some technology that will help reach an acceptable resolution.

Anyone reading please learn from my mistakes, and all I'm put has been appreciated!!!

Mtrycrafts I did discuss options with the builders audio visual guy but I felt I could save alot of money from their quote in labor alone.

I still believe I will have a comparible system at a much lesser cost, I just have to get the right pieces to fit the puzzle so to speak.

Thanks Again to all

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

I’d suggest getting in touch with Home Theater Direct. Despite the name, they specialize in multiroom audio and can probably get you the advice, and equipment, you need.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Latent]

Note that MusicCast is designed around the principle that each room gets it's own device. The traditional multiroom audio system is to have a central set of amplifiers (or a single bigger amplifier that can power low ohm combined speaker loads) and either multizone volume control before the amps or in room volume controls. With the newer network based systems like MusicCast they are designed to not require all audio cables going back to the central room and instead each MusicCast device is just its own device with speakers internal or externally connected. One room has a soundbar, another room has a full AVR and a third room has some MusicCast powered speakers. Only wifi or ethernet cables need to go between rooms. Then all the input selection, control and volume adjustment is done from the MusicCast mobile application.

Trying to mix the two systems with the equipment you listed makes things tricky and harder to work out.

Some of the MusicCast AVR's have multizone outputs and there may be some ways to use the second zone as an extra MusicCast room to get two rooms of audio from a single unit but there may be some limitations i'm thinking. You may be able to dedicate one of thoes AVR's as the pre-amp and input selection stage before your multiroom amp setup by using it's Front Left/Right pre out ports but then you can't use this unit for much else at the same time. You could have one AVR in your main media room with a 5.1/7.1 speaker setup with several source devices connected. Then the second AVR is in a cupboard/basement with the mutiroom amplifier and you can control the source feeding the other rooms using the MusicCast app. In MusicCast you would have two 'rooms' setup with one for the media room and a second for 'Rest of house'. sources connected to the media room's AVR or mobile/internet sources can be feed via musiccast to the 'Rest of house' zone and this will be heard from the other rooms and controlled via the in room volume controls. It may work but it's got two layers of control and volume mangement to go though.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Mtrycrafts the house was designed by architect, the audio design was put in by yours truly.

The whole house house been wired with ethernet, and 16 guage speaker cable. 16/4 to 5 volume controls, and 16/2 to 5 pairs of speakers through the house inside and out.

The speakers, volume controls are all installed, I just need to aquire the right equipment to get me closest to my original goal.

...
Mtrycrafts I did discuss options with the builders audio visual guy but I felt I could save alot of money from their quote in labor alone.

I still believe I will have a comparible system at a much lesser cost, I just have to get the right pieces to fit the puzzle so to speak.

Thanks Again to all

Thanks. From reading your original post, I got the impression that you bought all that cable and now ready to move in, pulling the cables after moving in. But it appears you prewired it which is great. Just hope your planning has placed all the wire outs where you want them now.

I built my house and spent lots of time planning everything but still some unforseen stuff always comes up.

 

[everettT]

How did you pull the cat5 ? If it is convenient you can get in wall controllers for each zone and multizone preamp / amp like Niles makes that will give you huge flexibility in each location. They complexity is up to you, but more control equals more convenience. If your looking for avrs that do digital via zones look at denon mid level units.

 

[chumperdink]

Man I have to say I am glad I decided to join this forum. I have been on other forums for mechanic work on my cars, and even carpentry forums for basic trim and woodworking.

This forum has far exceeded my expectations in regards to members giving great information in a kind and helpful way everyone has been nothing but genuine and I appreciate it.

Latent I appreciate your in depth explanation of the musiccast system for me I think I may write Yamaha and demand they make a musiccast multichannel amp just for me lol

Mtrycrafts I had laid out volume control locations, and speaker placements prior during the framing process. Then came the electricians, and the county inspectors which made my pre planned wire schematic all but impossible.

The electricians always take the easiest runs, and the inspectors made it clear I could not drill an 1/8th of an inch through the load bearing trusses anywhere. But I was still able to place things in an acceptable layout. You are not kidding aboUT unforseen dificulties!!

Everett you know what I did with the Cat 6 (I know overkill) was to put the drops anywhere I thought I might want to hardwire a smart tv, or laptop.

So there is a Cat 6 line in each room just not in the ideal spot for another control, but that is a great recommendation.

WayneP I called Home Theatre Direct, what a great company!!! The service rep on the phone not only gave me some great ideas on how to make things work, but he gave me options for a more cost effective way to achieve my way.

The Rep also told me not to buy what he recommended at first because after hearing a little more information about my equipment, he gave me a recommendation of a product that they don't even sell!! Truly amazing. Thanks for recommending them.

And again thanks to all for the advice and comments!!

I will try in a month to update you kind folks once I've moved in, If your interested. Right now I am going back to the drawing board and talking things over with the misses and deciding what route would be best for our needs.

Thanks again All

 

[herbu]

I have gone past the point of no return.

Respectfully, no you haven't. You have a bunch of cables pulled, and that's a good thing. You never know when you may want to use them. And you could use them with a separate AVR in the room.

You have yet to buy the equipment. The important thing is that you've precluded the necessity of cutting holes in walls later. Honestly, at this point I would consider simply terminating all the cables... move in... settle down... and think a while about the system you want.

 

[chumperdink]

Herbu,

We'll said I am doing just that. I did purchase equipment but I think I am learning my options/limitations from people like the fine folks in this forum, and constant research online.

I was just stating that all the work myself and my wife did to run these lines by God I am going to use them one way or another.

Rather than try and find a reciver that pre outs a digital source, I may be settling on something in the realm of a bluetooth dingle with an rca input, which can be controler via my phone or tablet.

I have since returned my second amplifier which was not the correct piece of equipment to suit my goal. Hope I don't get in trouble for this but crutchfield was very helpful in letting me return some things.

This whole adventure has been informative and I am sure will be well worth the effort when all is said and done.

 

[Latent]

Chromecast audio may work better than a bluetooth dongle.

 

[rsplodge]

I know this is a bit of an old thread, but can't chumperdink do the whole multi-zone thing using a Musiccast receiver as long as he combines this with a lot of wireless musiccast speakers (WX-030 or WX-010) in each room? The speakers are a bit pricey though compared to standard wired speakers. With the Yamaha system you can have up to 10 zones I think and I believe it's limited to stereo not multi-channel for the remote zones. I just bought one of their receivers and have 2 zones setup but my second zone is wired as I haven't bought any of the wireless speakers yet. The Musiccast app is really terrific BTW.

I think this is a more modern way than doing the old multi channel amp wired system with remote receivers and in-wall panels in each room.

...Roger