moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
I am looking for something to put all of my DVDs on, including blue rays. Ideally, this would be hooked up to the AVR as a component and I can access any movie for viewing over the t.v. selects. Kinda like a DVD player with a hard drive on it... Does this exist?
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I am looking for something to put all of my DVDs on, including blue rays. Ideally, this would be hooked up to the AVR as a component and I can access any movie for viewing over the t.v. selects. Kinda like a DVD player with a hard drive on it... Does this exist?
No, you could ether build a custom HTPC (or have one built for you - there are few small shop who do that)

Or get a two pieces - Media Client (which support DVDs and BluRays) and NAS box

You'd also most like will have to purchase the software to backup the BRs
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
The problem with such a device is that it would need to have copy-protection cracking software built in. Such software is actually illegal to use in the US. So there are no appliance-type boxes that have it (save for one exception, I think, which is enormously expensive).

What you could do is rip your discs using a PC and play them via a network or USB player like a Dune or Popcorn Hour.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
The problem with such a device is that it would need to have copy-protection cracking software built in. Such software is actually illegal to use in the US. So there are no appliance-type boxes that have it (save for one exception, I think, which is enormously expensive).

What you could do is rip your discs using a PC and play them via a network or USB player like a Dune or Popcorn Hour.
Just to clarify - The process of backing your own media is not illegal, it's the software which helps you do is what illegal and typically the company selling such software based far of from USA ;)
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
hmmmm thanks for the info... why on earth would they make this component illegal?
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
The DMCA makes it illegal to break "effective" copy protection. DVDs use CSS encryption to prevent copying. Blu-ray discs use AACS. CSS is trivial to decrypt thanks to the fact that one of the master encryption keys given to licensed DVD player manufacturers was leaked many years ago. AACS is breakable as well. There is software easily available online to do this. However, doing so is illegal. It's impossible to copy a DVD or Blu-ray in the US without committing the illegal act of breaking the encryption.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
hmmmm thanks for the info... why on earth would they make this component illegal?
The problem with such a device is that it would need to have copy-protection cracking software built in. Such software is actually illegal to use in the US.
^^ This. Look up DMCA Law

And the LAW exists to protect revenues of the BIG content - MPAA/RIAA
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
Give me a break..... They have more to worry about like stopping the production of plastic bottles. But nope... Money comes above all else.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
What you are describing is best accomplished using a home theater PC (HTPC), which is exactly what I do myself.

There ARE set top boxes, such as the Popcorn Hour, Dune, or the Boxee Box that can also serve as your connection from your DVD and Blu-ray files that are stored on hard drives to your TV. Personally though, I think an HTPC is the better solution. The Popcorn Hour cost just as much as an HTPC that you build yourself. And the Boxee Box does not support DTS-HD Master Audio (not yet, at least).

Building an HTPC is not difficult at all. And it can be quite inexpensive. A simple Core i3 processor can handle all of the necessary tasks just fine, including full HD Audio playback and 3D playback, using nothing more than the built in Intel HD graphics. You don't even need a separate video card! Oh, and it can handle 24p playback too. There are truly no limitations! The included heatsink fan with any Intel Core i3 CPU is also silent and totally fine. So just use the stock cooler that comes with your Core i3.

So a Core i3 CPU, then get an inexpensive H61 chipset LGA1155 motherboard. Just make sure the motherboard you choose has HDMI out (most do, but not 100%, so just make sure). I suggest an mATX form factor, since those are more widely available, and there are many attractive mATX cases that will look right at home in an equipment rack :)

A 2 x 2GB (4GB total) pack of DDR3 1333 RAM is totally sufficient.

I highly recommend getting an SSD hard drive as your primary C: drive to store the Windows 7 operating system and the rest of your software. A 60GB drive is great for that; however, you might want to opt for a 120GB SSD depending on how you decide to store all of your movie files (more on that later).

The final bits are to get a Blu-ray drive and a nice mATX case. You don't need much power at all. The Core i3 CPUs and H61 motherboards are low power, so any power supply over 150 Watts is totally fine. Many cases include a power supply, but not all do. Just check to make sure ;)

Now, you need to decide where you want to store all your movie files. You can use internal hard drives, external USB hard drives, or a NAS unit that you connect via Ethernet. I recommend using NAS storage, and here's why:

With all of your files stored on a NAS unit, you can access them via any device that connects to your home network. So you can have multiple HTPCs this way. Or you can use your laptop. Or you could use a Popcorn Hour, Roku or Boxee Box. Or even an iPad, iPhone, Android device, video game system, or any DLNA device. There's just a ton of options. And I personally think it's just plain cool to have all of your files stored in one, central location that any device on your network can access! It's like making your very own "cloud". But with WAY more storage than any current cloud service! :)

That said, if you simply leave your HTPC on all the time, it can act as your central server, storing all of your files, and allowing all other devices on your network to access those files via sharing. A NAS unit is just a lower power, easier way to do the same thing :)

If you decide to use a NAS unit, Synology is the brand to go with. And the DS411j model is great for its relatively low price and its ease of use. It's not the fastest NAS unit to be sure, but for serving up movies, music and photos, it's perfect. I use two of them myself. And I'll need to add a 3rd soon!

Regardless though, you'll need hard drives. And if you're storing Blu-ray backups, you'll need BIG hard drives. Prices are still a little inflated after all the flooding and storms in Asia that destroyed a lot of hard drive production last year. But prices on 3TB drives have come back down somewhat. 4TB drives are still way too expensive to be practical, IMO. I have eight 3TB drives (four in each DS411j NAS unit) and I'm getting close to filling them all up completely! Blu-ray files are huge! So just keep that in mind ;)

If you decide to use internal drives inside your HTPC's case, you'll want to plan ahead. Make sure the motherboard you buy has as many SATA plugs as possible. Many have 6 total, which is nice. You'll use 1 SATA for the SSD that holds the operating system and software, 1 SATA for the Blu-ray/DVD drive, and then you can have 4 SATA hard drives, which is the same as a single DS411j NAS unit. Four 3TB drives is a pretty good start, so this isn't a bad way to go if you don't want to pay for a separate NAS unit right away. Just be sure to also buy a case that can hold that many drives! Thankfully, there are nice, horizontal mATX cases that can hold this many drives, and will fit right in to a regular equipment rack. They tend to be more expensive though. And you'll need a higher Wattage power supply. 300 Watts or more is plenty ;)

You can also expand any storage option with external USB drives. Even the DS411j NAS unit has two USB plugs, so you can always add more hard drives that way too!

Remember when I said that you might want a 120GB SSD? Well, if you choose to use a NAS unit for storage, I would recommend the larger SSD. The reason is because I've found it a lot safer and more reliable to back up Blu-rays within just the HTPC first, and then transfer then via Ethernet to the NAS unit. A couple of times, I've run into a snag backing up a Blu-ray directly to a NAS unit. Any little hiccup in the network connection can create an error. So I've just found it's better to backup to the internal drive of the HTPC first, and then copy and paste the file to the NAS, then delete the file from the SSD. Takes a wee bit longer, but no potential for errors during the disc backup ;) If you use internal drives though, you should be able to backup you discs directly with no problem, and you can "get away" with the smaller and less expensive 60GB SSD as your C: drive to hold just the operating system and other software, and nothing else.

Finally, on the hardware side, you will need a keyboard and mouse, at least for your initial setup. Wireless certainly makes it easier since you'll be using your TV and sitting on your couch ;) Once you have it all set up though, you can pretty much live in Windows 7 Media Center, which is designed to be controlled with just a standard style remote control. Some cases or even motherboards include a remote and an IR receiver. Most don't though, and the motherboard has to have a specific IR control input plug, which almost none do. So the MUCH easier option is to just get a WMC Remote, which will include a little USB dongle that acts as the IR receiver. You can either use the WMC remote, or if you have a Harmony Remote, those can control WMC too! Either way though, you'll need that USB IR dongle ;)

If you like, you can also use an app for your iDevice or Android device to use them as a touchpad and keyboard. This is a great way to control you HTPC from the couch, IMO. These apps rely on a WiFi or Bluetooth connection. Some motherboards come with WiFi (and sometimes Bluetooth) built in. Many do not. The easiest thing is just to add a WiFi and/or Bluetooth USB dongle. They're cheap and work well :)

Continued...
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
So now it's time to talk software!

First up, you'll want a genuine copy of Windows 7 Home Premium or higher. I recommend buying a product key here for about $20. They can also give you a download link for the Windows 7 software itself. With a Core i3, you'll want the 64-bit version. You can burn the downloaded Windows 7 software to a DVD, or better yet, just use a 4GB or larger USB stick to make the install nice and zippy :)

After you've installed, use the drivers CD that comes with your motherboard to install all of the necessary drivers. Once your Ethernet is up and running, connect to the Internet and start Windows update. There will be a TON of updates to install. You don't need to do them all at once. Start with the .net updates first, then the Windows OS updates. Leave the security updated for now. Once you've done the .net and OS updates, you should get a Service Pack 1 update. That's the really important one! But it won't show up right away. You need the .net and OS updates first. Once you've installed Service Pack 1, you'll have a lot fewer updates left. Install whatever is left in the list. Then go and Activate Windows. You will also want to turn off User Account Controls. Not just to avoid the annoying pop up every time you go to install or change something, but also because UAC messes up the frame rate on video output for some reason. Especially 24p output.

You can then make sure you have all the latest drivers from your motherboard manufacturer's website and from Intel.

Now you need some playback software. The Shark007 Codec Pack ensures that Windows Media Center and Windows Media Player will recognize and playback almost any file type.

You'll still want Blu-ray playback software if you want things like BD-Live and full 3D support though. You can make this easy by buying a Blu-ray drive that comes with playback software. Any retail Blu-ray drive will. And it will usually be either PowerDVD or WinDVD, either of which is fine.

I paid $99 for ArcSoft's TotalMedia Theatre 5, but only because I also have over 100 HD DVD discs that I wanted to be able to backup and play. TMT5 is the only current software that still supports HD DVD! So that's why I went with it. But if you don't have HD DVD discs, any Blu-ray playback software is fine ;)

So now to backup you DVD and Blu-ray discs. The free and easy way is to use the MakeMKV beta software . It's free while in beta, and it's incredibly powerful. You can "open" any DVD or Blu-ray movie with it and select what parts you want to keep, and what parts you're willing to discard. So you can eliminate all the annoying warnings and trailers. You can take out special features. You can select which language and subtitle tracks to keep. And you end up with MKV files in the end.

You will lose BD-Live and you will lose the disc menu. And 3D can sometimes be a little hinky. So if you want to keep those things, or if you just want to make sure that your backups are perfect 1:1 copies of the original discs with no changes to anything what-so-ever, you can do what I do:

I use Slysoft's AnyDVD HD to make perfect 1:1 ISO image files of my discs. AnyDVD HD puts a little fox's face icon in your system tray. You just right click on that and select "rip to image". You will get an ISO backup of any CD, DVD, HD DVD or Blu-ray this way. Again, my need for HD DVD support led me to pay for AnyDVD HD. I got it when they had a lifetime license though. Slysoft doesn't offer that anymore, so it might be a bit more expensive for folks these days :eek:

In order to play back an ISO file, you need to "mount" the image on a virtual drive. Thankfully, this is free and easy with Slysoft's Virtual CloneDrive . With ISO backups and Virtual CloneDrive, playback is identical to putting a physical disc into a tray. AnyDVD HD also gives you options to remove certain unwanted parts of the discs prior to the ripping process. But it's not quite as precise as MakeMKV. Still, you can simply play the physical disc with AnyDVD HD running first to make sure it plays the way you want it to, then do the rip to image to get that exact version - certain parts of the disc removed, or completely untouched :)

So, at this point, you can make your backups and play them back. But I'm sure you also want to be able to go into Windows Media Center, bring up a pretty-looking list of all your movies with nice box art and descriptions. Browse, search, hit play, and enjoy a slick-looking interface!

For all of that, you need metadata and organizational software that integrates with WMC. Luckily, you have two great options!

First up, if you use the method I use of 1:1 ISO backups, then I highly recommend MyMovies . MyMovies is a HUGE database of basically every disc out there. What makes it terrific for 1:1 ISO backups is that they have an individual listing for each disc, not just each movie. So, for example, if you have the same movie on both DVD and Blu-ray, you can have a separate entry in your collection for each! Or if you have both a regular edition and also a Special edition or Director's Cut or Extended edition or what have you: each version gets its own entry in your collection. It really is exactly like a virtual bookshelf for your movie collection. And with ISO backups, it's super easy. When you mount the ISO file, MyMovies reads that as you having inserted a physical disc. It will read the disc ID and automatically look up the title for you! Then you can add it to your collection right then and there. Couldn't be easier. MyMovies provides box art, specs, full descriptions. It's great. It even has individual country codes so you can add foreign discs. And you can manually edit any of the info as much as you want!

The only tricky bit is that if you want it to all work smoothly within Windows Media Center, you have to "point" MyMovies to where your ISO files are stores. In the MyMovies Collection Manager software, there's a little "disc(s)" icon. You click on that and use the drop down menu to say that the disc is a file. You then point to the file's location on your hard drive or NAS unit. Now, when you hit "Play" in Windows Media Center, MyMovies will automatically look up the location of that movie's "disc" file. It all works seamlessly, and it's exactly what you are asking for: a big, pretty database of all the movies you own (or "backed up" from rental discs ;) ), that you can browse, search, and play back all from one device and one slick interface.

MyMovies does have some extra features that you have to pay to "unlock", such as pretty backdrops for you individual movie title screens, and a number of additional layouts and ways of organizing your collection. The basics are all free though, and totally functional. The "pay to unlock" features really are just cosmetic extras, but you might want them enough to pay for them ;)

The other great metadata option is called MediaBrowser . It's free. And if you go the MKV or BitTorrented download route, it's probably a better choice than MyMovies. MyMovies is really all geared towards physical discs or ISO files that mimic physical discs. MediaBrowser pulls in its data and listings from TMDb, so it's based just on movie titles, not disc releases. You need to follow MediaBrowser's guidelines for putting each movie file in its own folder, and naming the folders according to their guide. Once you do that though, MediaBrowser automatically brings in all the data and organizes your collection within Windows Media Center! So no "pointing" the software to each individual movie file one be one like in MyMovies. You just show MediaBrowser where all your movie files are kept one time, and it does all the rest! You can manually correct any mistakes it makes after ;)

So that's about it. There are also many plug-ins you can add to Windows Media Center to give it more functionality. It's also a great DVR. If you add an over-the-air HDTV antenna and a tuner (or 2 or 4 or 8 ;) ) to your HTPC, you can enjoy pristine broadcast television and record it on your computer! If your cable company supports CableCard, there are also CableCard tuners for PCs, so you can use WMC as your DVR, rather than a TiVo or your cable company's DVR box.

And because it's a full PC, you can, of course, use any online service, go to any website, or install any PC software. You can also make it a full gaming PC if you want to! The Core i3 build I've suggested here is no gaming rig. That was all about the lowest cost. But you could certainly up the budget and build a screaming gaming rig if you wanted to.

Extenders (including the Xbox360) can't play back Blu-ray ISO backups. Nor can DLNA devices. But if you limit the audio to standard Dolby Digital or DTS, they CAN play back MKV files in most cases. And you can always use HandBrake to create file versions for your portable or other devices after using MakeMKV.

There's basically no limits. There can certainly be headaches in the initial setup, and ongoing hassles in keeping it all organized and running smoothly. But there's nothing more versatile, powerful, and slick than a nice HTPC :D

Hope that helps!
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I will throw in my 2 cents on this as I currently own two Dune HD units. Both of them have internal hard drives and I'm using four Thecus NAS RAID units with about 20TB of storage for my collection of about 300 DVDs and almost 400 BDs.

I have a hard wired gigabit ethernet setup in my home which has no problem getting the content off the hard drives to the Dune players simultaneously.

I've also had no issues with my Blu-ray rips from my home PC to the networked hard drives directly. I did have issues when I had a cheap BD player, but when I went to a decent internal BD drive for my home PC, the reliability went through the roof. Very good.

I opted away from the HTPC because there wasn't at the time any solution which would play back full BD ISO copies of films with 100% of the original quality and audio intact. It seemed like the requirement was always to take it to another format like a .MKV or similar for playback. This is where the Dune does well because it plays back ISOs and quality MKV files just fine.

Originally I DID just use the internal hard drives of the Dune to playback movies, but I quickly outgrew the storage space. I found the Thecus 4100PRO units that I purchased to be reliable and do a very good job for an excellent price.

There are certainly other options out there, and Sony makes a 400 disc Blu-ray player that is slow, but worth considering on a more affordable budget.

It's just important to realize that this is not a 'budget' solution. A Blu-ray Disc is about 35GB per movie. 100 movies is 3.5TB... That space will fill up quickly. I have about 3.2TB free out of over 20TB of available storage that I have. But, the nice part is that there is no real 'end' that must be met. After one of the drives fills up, I can add a new RAID to the system and have more storage. I don't need a new player.

The biggest headache is the initial setup which can be a pain just because of the extremely poor documentation. Fortunately, there is some good online help and some dedicated forums which can be used to help you out.

Likewise, as mentioned above, these systems are not tweaked to the point of being painless for continued operation. So, you do need to update your library, manually, when new movies/TV shows, etc. are added.

I use the YADIS interface for my Dune which gives it a very nice cover art flow and feel (Google it!) and the end result it something my 5 year old, my wife, and my parents have no real issues using. It's why I had to buy a second Dune so we would stop fighting over them.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Cool!

Thanks, BMX, for detailing your setup!

The Dune HD players do look like a great, ready-made solution that'll probably work better than a DIY HTPC for a lot of people. Messing with an HTPC can be a real pain sometimes.

I sort of just came to the conclusion that HTPCs were, all around, better for me personally. But that's not to say they're the only or best choice for everybody, so I'm sorry if I came across that way :eek:

For me, a lot of it came down to HD DVD support and BD-Live! 3D too. Call me crazy, but I actually like to be able to still use that stuff if I want to :p

How's the Dune HD for BD-Live and 3D? I truly do not know. Truth be told, I didn't even know about Dune when I was putting my system together! So who knows? I might have opted for Dune HD players too if I'd known about them and looked into them more!

Anywho, thanks again. There are certainly some good options for playback and connection to the TV. I think we all agree though, once you get into backing up Blu-rays and simultaneously playing more than one movie on two or more displays at once, using NAS storage is the only thing that really makes sense! I guess you could always go the route of a Windows Home Server with local storage, or just the "always on" PC with local storage and sharing over the network. But NAS units just seem more economical, easier, and they use less power too. Gotta love NAS, right?

:D
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
FWIW, I'm a serious tech guy (I've been a network administrator for 10 years, been building and fixing PCs for 20 years, etc). I have an HTPC that streams media from the internet and a server with an 8 TB RAID 5 array. Clearly I know what I'm doing.

That said.... if I could get by with an appliance like a Dune I would. The main reason I don't is because I use the HTPC as a DVR and to stream random online stuff. HTPCs are highly functional and can do almost anything, but proper setup and configuration is a major pain in the butt compared to a plug and play solution. There's also the issues of colorspace, frame rates, etc.

I'd strongly suggest that unless you're willing to put a ton of time and effort into the HTPC and enjoy it, get a standalone player.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
FWIW, I'm a serious tech guy (I've been a network administrator for 10 years, been building and fixing PCs for 20 years, etc). I have an HTPC that streams media from the internet and a server with an 8 TB RAID 5 array. Clearly I know what I'm doing.

That said.... if I could get by with an appliance like a Dune I would. The main reason I don't is because I use the HTPC as a DVR and to stream random online stuff. HTPCs are highly functional and can do almost anything, but proper setup and configuration is a major pain in the butt compared to a plug and play solution. There's also the issues of colorspace, frame rates, etc.

I'd strongly suggest that unless you're willing to put a ton of time and effort into the HTPC and enjoy it, get a standalone player.
It's no secret what I do for a living, and my $84 Netgear, while far from perfect media client, DOES indeed play 99% of stuff I throw at it.

I used custom built low-powered HTPC before, but it's issues eventually drove me to solution in the box - and I'm very happy I did it. No Remote control issues, No noise and very low power

Including DVD and BR menus and navigation. Full 1080p support for all and any MKV including very high bitrate high profile
Passthru to anything including DTS HD MSRT

It doesn't do 3D and it takes 2-3 minutes for BD iso to load, other than that and very bland interface and navigation - at this price you literally can't go wrong

P.s: 5-8 Gb 720p compresses MKV file with with 5.1 surround is much better than netflix steaming and For many people very close to BD quality
2Tb hard drives are getting cheaper (again) so.. getting 10Tb of storage is not huge investment
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
I've been very happy with ~10 GB 1080p MKV rips of Blu-ray discs. I'll go to 15 or so for movies where PQ is super important and/or the movie is long (LOTR, Avatar, etc). At those bitrates I can't really tell the difference from the original unless I'm super super critical.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
Wow lots of information here. THe HTPC sounds complicated to set up. I'll look into these ideas and if I am successful I will let you know. Thanks again!
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
You're welcome! :)

Just remember, if you decide to use a Dune HD or Popcorn Hour or other ready-made set top box as your playback device, you still need a PC in order to rip your discs first, plus storage that the set top box can access ;)
 
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