Moved from modding thread

[av_phile]

Again, DBT seems to drive you to distraction, yet for all the obvious distress you feel for the concept, you bring it up here. Why? Haven't you had enough? I'd say trolling is precisely the word.

Why should it? I hardly have any regard for it. But I'll tell you why, read along, indulge me.

At any rate, why would you say modifying equipment is at odds with DBT? You could certainly test modded gear if you like. To suggest the two endeavors are mutually exclusive would appear to be a straw man attack against an argument I've not raised. Since I'm merely asking whether other people are into mods, without implying endorsement nor condemnation, shouldn't you be delighted? I am after all asking for opinions.

You tell me. In fact I am delighted that the issue of modifying gears should come from you. From someone who delights in ABX testing, that was a pleasant and welcome surprise.

The issue here is simple. It's about extracting the pleasures in this hobby. Modifying a gear with what you BELIEVE will make them sound or perform better is one. Getting high end products that you BELIEVE will make for a better performing or sounding set-up is another. Now let me recall, oh yes, I think ABX testing would have me believe that anything more than a zip cord and a $300 receiver is foolish, right? I think modifying a gear does give you more than the average stock. You can do it yourself, or you can let Theta or mark levinson do it for you at a price.

Lastly, many people I know mod their speakers. Even most extremists from both lunatic fringe camps (ie die hard skeptical and staunch Golden Ears) agree that speakers sound very different. Unless a speaker is perfect right from the factory, why not modify it if you know how? To "hot rod" a car is not to condemn its performance but to acknowledge its good qualities and improve upon them. Or to remedy weaknesses in an otherwise excellent vehicle.

I think that is the same philosophy why people like Theta and other boutique brands rehouse and rebadge some consumer products. They "hot rod" some mass market product. They have great faith on some of those consumer circuitry that are poorly assembled and housed. So they replace the parts with more exacting parts and rehouse them in more robust chasis. That's great in this hobby. Either you do it yourself, or pay $$$ for others who know better to do it for you.

In my younger years, I used to do a lot of tweaking with crossover networks I find wanting in some JBl and AR speakers with better capacitors and coils (from iron to air core) And I've modified certain wharfedale speaker drivers replacing them with Fostex speakers. I've even increased their internal damping materials which often were so flimsy or braced them to lessen internal vibration. In short, I attempted to imitate what expensive brands are doing for their wares. And the enjoyment derived from doing so is surpassed only by the enjoyment after.

My point is, this modding is exactly one argument why ABX testing is totally irrelevant in this hobby. While statistical ABX testing will tell you that it is foolish to go beyond a $300 appliance, it is clear that this hobby becomes most satisfying when your belief and value system acknowledges that there are many things you can do to better a $300 appliance. That there are ways and means to juice up our beloved gears so they can sound bettter to our ears, short of spending on that $15,000 amp or speaker which, for some people with more money than the time, patience and skill to modify on their own, would most likely be preffered path. If the hobbyist believes that modding does wonders to his gear, then that is clear acknwledgement that there is more than what an ABX test will you.

If you have any relevant opinions on modding or experiences with mods, please share them. If you only want to needle guys who think all amps are the same, please do so in another thread. Take a dump there if you feel you must, but let me try to keep this about mods. I say this not as a Moderator but just as a guy trying to get some dialog going on a specific subject.

I just did. Sorry to bring this up in this thread. Just too tempting for me not to. Modding's relevance to the utter irrelevance of statistical ABX in this hobby is so obvious.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Reread my posts, AVP- I mentioned DBT only with regards to your attacks on Mtrycrafts for having the audacity to post a link to a person who actually performed his own tests. For the record, my problem was with your lack of respect, not your opinions. You should also note that, as I've alluded to, I enjoyed our quite civil debate. I thought you'd have recognized it as a "poor man's Socratic dialog," not as me trumpeting objective testing. Although I wonder why you had such a problem with his post in the first place.

I've never once said that all amps, all cables, or any components sound alike. There are a couple of places where I mentioned hypotheticals (eg "assuming that", "given that", etc). Nor have I said they don't.

I have no idea is Theta or any other mainstream brands "hot rod" products, nor do you I suspect. Although, I doubt that merely changing the nameplate and multiplying the price by a factor of ten will improve the sound. Although I'm beginning to believe you might feel it would.

As for "my" belief system, if you meant me personally, alas I see you have not the slightest inkling of my belief system. Nor are you interested, obviously. It's much easier to attack a straw man than a real person. Nor does relate even remotely to DBT. If you wished to see if a mod really had an audible effect, and you were confident enough in your hearing & comfortable enough in your skin, and you were curious, you could compare the stock & modded units. Or you could merely listen casually and begin typing the purple prose.

Again, I've asked only for individual opinions on modding of equipment, and if you're not content to let that discussion occur here, the non relevant portions will be pruned away.

 

[Rob Babcock]

There. You may continue your diatribe against DBT here. Stop on back to the previous discussion is you have anything relevant.

 

[av_phile]

Reread my posts, AVP- I mentioned DBT only with regards to your attacks on Mtrycrafts for having the audacity to post a link to a person who actually performed his own tests. For the record, my problem was with your lack of respect, not your opinions. You should also note that, as I've alluded to, I enjoyed our quite civil debate. I thought you'd have recognized it as a "poor man's Socratic dialog," not as me trumpeting objective testing. Although I wonder why you had such a problem with his post in the first place.

I've never once said that all amps, all cables, or any components sound alike. There are a couple of places where I mentioned hypotheticals (eg "assuming that", "given that", etc). Nor have I said they don't.

I have no idea is Theta or any other mainstream brands "hot rod" products, nor do you I suspect. Although, I doubt that merely changing the nameplate and multiplying the price by a factor of ten will improve the sound. Although I'm beginning to believe you might feel it would.

As for "my" belief system, if you meant me personally, alas I see you have not the slightest inkling of my belief system. Nor are you interested, obviously. It's much easier to attack a straw man than a real person. Nor does relate even remotely to DBT. If you wished to see if a mod really had an audible effect, and you were confident enough in your hearing & comfortable enough in your skin, and you were curious, you could compare the stock & modded units. Or you could merely listen casually and begin typing the purple prose.

Again, I've asked only for individual opinions on modding of equipment, and if you're not content to let that discussion occur here, the non relevant portions will be pruned away.

Respect???? So you now talk about respect, where's your respect when you drove people like O'Shag from this forum when all he was saying was an honest assessment of his cables?

Where's you respect when you and your ilk dish insults on posters like Redbone on an honest opnion about cables?

Site to me any disrespectful language that I used when I simply put into a bad light the utter laughability of ABX testing? You and your ilk in this forum sound as though you are on higher grounds, have a monopoly of correct ideas and contemptible to those who opine differently.

Hello???? is this America or China?

You seem to be the one harping on an imagined straw man. My arguments are simple and straightforward. And I couldn't care less what your personal beliefs are. You obviously didn't understand my posts when I said this hobby is about certin beliefs. I wasn't talking about yours. Silly.

But you're right, you never said those things, but your obvious delight at Mtrycrafts ridiculing other posters who don't share your myopic views is so chilling that only a cretin wouldn't notice that birds of the same feather flock together. If you read my posts eversince I joined, I was attacking the IDEA, not anyone., Least of all a MODERATOR who must be pleased at all cost.

But hey, you're the moderator. One of the preffessed GODs in this forum. Feel free to take a poster who don't share your views aside and lambast him to your hearts content. Like what you just did. You didn't even notice that I apologized for raising the issue on that thread. You're really must feel like a GOD.

 

[Rob Babcock]

"My ilk", huh? That's your best argument? I & "my ilk" drove someone away? And this is now a police state?

Mytrycrafts has been nothing but polite & respectful, even when he's told not to be "so ignorant" and to "clean the wax out of his ears". I'd have really let someone have it for saying that, but it rolls of his back. Your insinutations to the contrary, I have no personal "beef" with you nrr your opinions (some of which I share), but you seem to prefer personal attacks and emotional outbursts to dialog. Funny, you seem to think I'm "backing those guys up," but you seem to ignore WmAX's posts criticizing me for taking your position. Funny, that.

My sincere apologies. I greatly overestimated you. It won't happen again, though.

 

[av_phile]

Funny that you should suggest I compare modified gears with stock gears. tell that to those who modify in that forum. I don't anymore, I just buy what I BELIEVE is the best gear for me.

And if you've understood my posts, you'd notice that I consider adhering to ABX tests as just another OPINION that I can respect. Provided those who carry such an opinion have as much respect to those who don't.

I have no problems with ABX testing, that should be very obvious in my first post about the topic. I just OPINED and questioned if it had any relevance to the enjoynment of this hobby. And the reaons I presented dispassionately. And I remain doubtful about its relevance. And neither you nor Mtrycrafts has presented any intelligent arguments to convinced me otherwise but instead attacked my person with such innuendos and impugned my motives as well. Not the ideas that I presented.

thank you

 

[Yamahaluver]

Rob, give it up, it is a lost cause, dont say you havent been forewarned.

 

[Francious70]

Can't we all just get along and disagree in a calm and rational manner??

Paul