Morons & Hi end audio = Headache.

[highfihoney]

I kid you not some people should be required to pass a test before their allowed to interact on the internet.

Several months ago i sold a hi end amp on audiogon,i had 6 offers to buy all within 1 hour,trying to be fair i took the very first email & accepted his offer,keep in mind thay his offer was not the highest offer,one member offered me more than my asking price but i did not accept.

It took 5 weeks for me to get paid from the buyer,no biggie, im not broke so i inform him he will be getting his amp within the week,i spend $26 on box'es & packing material,wrap the amp in shrink wrap to protect against scratches & condensation,then i wrap in 4 layers of bubble wrap,then i put it in a snug fitting box with 2" styrofoam on all 6 sides of the box & seal the box,this box was then placed in another larger box & surrounded with a combination of rigid styrofoam & peanuts for a total of 6" of packing material on all sides of the amp,this packing exceeds both UPS & FEDEX guidelines.

Needless to say the amp arrived smashed to bits,the glass is toast & several of the control knobs are bent & one spins freely,the buyer is bummed out & rightly so,again no biggie,i offer him a 100% refund including his shipping costs allready paid to me plus any shipping costs incured sending the amp back to me,all i ask of him is that he abide by the audiogon rules,make the damage report with UPS & to be sure to keep all the packing & to not throw anything away,he agreed & i told him that upon me recieving the damaged amp back i would send him all his money back plus shipping costs both ways.

I got the amp back,not in the same sturdy highly packed double box'es that i used but in a single box with nothing inside,gone is any evidence that the amp was packed according to UPS guidelines as well as any hope of me collecting one red cent from insurance,the way it looks is that i just threw the amp into a box & sent it on its way.

My first thought is to tell the buyer he must now await the outcome of UPS's decision on the insurance claim due to the fact that he willingly threw away my proper packing material & willingly chose to send the amp back the way he did,he also knowingly put my chances at recouping any insurance monies at a big zero.

Any thoughts on how to reach an agreement with this buyer,my audiogon username has 100% perfect feedback & i'd like to keep it that way but i also dont feel great about taking one in the a$$ because a buyer went outside the rules on his own.

 

[MDS]

I find it rather hard to believe that the amp would actually arrive smashed to bits after that kind of packing. I would be highly suspicious but I definitely admire your integrity in offering to make it right for the buyer. It sounds like this guy couldn't even bother to offer anywhere near the same consideration as you and that would make me even more suspicious.

In this case, I'd be steaming mad and probably just tell him he is out of luck because he couldn't bother to take the minor little steps necessary to allow you to collect on the insurance. If he leaves negative feedback, I'd respond to it (if possible, like you can on EBay) and make it clear what happened. If I were reading that feedback I wouldn't penalize you when every other feedback is 100% positive.

If your conscience requires you to reimburse the guy anyway (I could understand that myself) then do it but in no way would I refund the shipping charges.

 

[Johnd]

I would explain to him the return is contingent upon a satisfactory resolution with the shipper. As MDS wrote, I find it difficult to believe any damage was done given the extraordinary packing job.

In the future, you may want to consider:
1) taking photos of the various steps of packing
2) require any returns to be returned as such
3) take photos upon unpacking
4) strongly urge shipping insurance, and
5) allow returns only upon a satisfactory settlement with the shipper.

If all else fails, offer him $0.50 on the dollar upon the understanding that there will be no unfavorable reportings to Audiogon. Good luck.

 

[mike c]

does the unit have a serial number? is it the same unit you sent?

- just checking.

 

[highfihoney]

I find it rather hard to believe that the amp would actually arrive smashed to bits after that kind of packing. I would be highly suspicious but I definitely admire your integrity in offering to make it right for the buyer. It sounds like this guy couldn't even bother to offer anywhere near the same consideration as you and that would make me even more suspicious.

See now thats what im thinking,how & the he!! did the control knobs get bent to the point that one just spins in circles,if i had the packing i could see if any damage to the packing matches what happened to the amp,its easy for me to see the glass being smashed as Mcintosh amps regularly get broken glass from being dropped & show no signs of damage on the box but the frikken knobs.

The missing packing has me wondering.

 

[highfihoney]

does the unit have a serial number? is it the same unit you sent?

- just checking.

Good thought,i always record serial numbers of all the gear i buy & sell,its the same amp.

 

[FLZapped]

I find it rather hard to believe that the amp would actually arrive smashed to bits after that kind of packing.

Not me, UPS destroyed a $3000 musical instrument I ordered that was double boxed. If it is critical, I use Fedex.

-Bruce

 

[highfihoney]

I would explain to him the return is contingent upon a satisfactory resolution with the shipper. As MDS wrote, I find it difficult to believe any damage was done given the extraordinary packing job.

In the future, you may want to consider:
1) taking photos of the various steps of packing
2) require any returns to be returned as such
3) take photos upon unpacking
4) strongly urge shipping insurance, and
5) allow returns only upon a satisfactory settlement with the shipper.

If all else fails, offer him $0.50 on the dollar upon the understanding that there will be no unfavorable reportings to Audiogon. Good luck.

Audiogon is different than ebay,on audiogon its always the sellers responsibility to refund the buyers payment in the event of shipping damage,making a buyer wait on the outcome of an insurance claim is grounds for a negative feedback,but in order for this to apply the buyer must conform to any reasonable requests from the seller pertaining to cooperating with the insurance claim.

The gear was insured as i always do weather the buyer wants insurance or not but without the packing my claim fails to meet the minimum packing requirements.

Feedback on audiogon can be contested by either party then it goes into a thread on the forum where the membership will decide the outcome & who is at fault,an open dispute on agon is the kiss of death for a seller,even if he is in the right,hi end buyers are skittish.

Im probably just going to end up eating the loss,i can see it comming

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Did your amp arrive home with new serial numbers?? Sounds like the old scam: He bought a broken unit for $10, bid on yours, sent you back the broken unit (or put all the broken components in your good chassis), kept your amp & the money.

 

[Audioholics]

I have a couple questions:

1) Why did the buyer accept the package?
2) Was the package shipped with a signature required
3) WHY did the buyer accept the package??
4) Did UPS perhaps remove (through the course of the destruction process) the outer packaging completely such that the buyer never got the outer packaging?
5) WHY DID THE BUYER ACCEPT THE PACKAGE???

Now the equation: If 2=true + 4=false then screw the buyer. He is an idiot.

If 2=false OR 4=true then you need to investigate further and the buyer should probably get at least some of his money back

I would also like to know the answer to #s 1, 3 and 5.

 

[Dolby CP-200]

Negligence, you might as well have placed a vase in the box for postal service to throw around.

Did your amp arrive home with new serial numbers?? Sounds like the old scam: He bought a broken unit for $10, bid on yours, sent you back the broken unit (or put all the broken components in your good chassis), kept your amp & the money.

Hmm the “Texas Switch” scam hmm.

 

[highfihoney]

Did your amp arrive home with new serial numbers?? Sounds like the old scam: He bought a broken unit for $10, bid on yours, sent you back the broken unit (or put all the broken components in your good chassis), kept your amp & the money.

Nope,its the same amp all the way,i have not ripped into the innards of the amp to see if anything was taken but as far as the amp itself its the same one.

Another twist for ya,this buyer is not a newbee to buying used hi end gear,he has a very hi feedback rating,allmost as much feedback as i do on agon,i just cant see somebody who is that experienced with buying used hi end gear throwing away the packaging,i also cant see an experienced buyer who has positive feedback for closing multi thousand dollar deals being on the take,this guy is not broke by a long shot,something dont jive.

 

[highfihoney]

I have a couple questions:

1) Why did the buyer accept the package?
2) Was the package shipped with a signature required
3) WHY did the buyer accept the package??
4) Did UPS perhaps remove (through the course of the destruction process) the outer packaging completely such that the buyer never got the outer packaging?
5) WHY DID THE BUYER ACCEPT THE PACKAGE???

Now the equation: If 2=true + 4=false then screw the buyer. He is an idiot.

If 2=false OR 4=true then you need to investigate further and the buyer should probably get at least some of his money back

I would also like to know the answer to #s 1, 3 and 5.

All good questions,especially 1,3 & 5.

#2 Yes a signature was required,he signed.

#4 No,ups did not alter the packing or remove the outer box,i always explain to a buyer (via email) how i intend to pack their gear before i pack it & if they have any special packing requests or problems with my packing methods i will pack as they ask,the buyer was aware of my packing methods & approved them before i packed the gear,i have to imagine that if the gear showed up packed even the slightest bit different from what i explained to him he woulda thrown a fit & blamed me for not packing in the agreed manner.

Still question number 3 looms unanswered.

 

[highfihoney]

Negligence, you might as well have placed a vase in the box for postal service to throw around.

Please explain "negligence" as it applies to my packing.

 

[furrycute]

Open up your amp and take a look inside to see if anything is missing or got replaced with worn out parts.

This whole story just doesn't sound right. I mean with 6 inches of packing material around your amp, the UPS guy had to drop the box from a second story window in order to break anything inside the box.

I smell a scam.

 

[Johnd]

If you ending up locking horns with this guy, as you value your reputation so much at Adiogon (you say as much in your post), in your defense you could:

1) post pictures of the amp prior to shipping (I'm sure you needed them to post for the sale); and
2) post pictures of the amp upon return, as well as all (or the minimal) the packing material.

I cannot see how an unbiased forum could rule against you if half of what you see is true (before/after condition of the amp and the packing material).

 

[Dolby CP-200]

Please explain "negligence" as it applies to my packing.

No the postal service who else.

 

[Audioholics]

#2 Yes a signature was required,he signed.

#4 No,ups did not alter the packing or remove the outer box

Stick the buyer with the bill then. He's an idiot and deserves what he gets for not refusing shipment upon seeing a damaged box from UPS.

 

[annunaki]

I do not put anything past UPS or USPS. I have packaged things with at least 4"-5" of packing, double boxed and had things damaged from them. I would seriously question why the original packing was not sent back with the item though. I have all ofthe buyer's keep the merchandise in the packaging until UPS comes to inspect the damage at their place. Then, if UPS does not keep it, I have them send it back to me. Once the item is received and UPS fulfills on the insurance end they are refunded.

However, based upon your description of packing, I do not see how the item could have been damaged to the extent you say without some of the packing removed. I had a guy try to pull a fast one on me once. He dropped the unit once it was unpacked and then said it was damaged in shipping. After months of haggling, UPS refunded the cash and I refunded him. I would check to see if there are any marks on the chasis that indicate a drop out side of packaging. Packed the way you describe there should be no marks visible on the unit. I think it would literally have to fall out of an airplane at altitude to do the damage you describe based upon your packing method.

 

[mike c]

since the guy did not pack properly when he sent he unit back ... could most of the damage happened on the way back? did he take pics when the unit arrived at his house? or pictures of the box?