More Volume

[JoJo1]

I just recently purchased a 4B Bryston amp, 2 cerwin vega D9 and 2 cerwin vega D3 ( D3 where added to help prevent clipping)

I know everyone states this should be loud enough but it's not, I like it loud. If i give it more volume than 3 o'clock it clips. I'm thinking of purchasing a second 4B and somehow running 1 amp for each side of speakers. Not really sure how it's done.

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

 

[lovinthehd]

Could be more the limitation of the speakers rather than amp. How far away are you from the speakers? What spl levels are you playing at? Keep in mind it takes a doubling of power to gain merely 3dB spl. Bridging the amps may have an impedance limitation that won't help.

 

[JoJo1]

The speakers are maybe 4-5 feet away stacked two on each other. Definitely I would say over 100, after a few drinks maybe 120

 

[lovinthehd]

Might play around with this http://www.hometheaterengineering.com/splcalculator.html http://www.hometheaterengineering.com/splcalculator.html

 

[JoJo1]

Thank you, I'll check that out.

 

[JoJo1]

I've entered my information, attached is the result. 130??? something doesn't seem right. I should have crazy volume.

 

[Swerd]

With an amp capable of 300 Watts/channel driving two of these large 3-way CV speakers, it should be painfully loud – ear damaging loud. Spend money on seeing an Ear, Nose, & Throat doctor before spending money on more wattage.

 

[JoJo1]

With an amp capable of 300 Watts/channel driving two of these large 3-way CV speakers, it should be painfully loud – ear damaging loud. Spend money on seeing an Ear, Nose, & Throat doctor before spending money on more wattage.
View attachment 63085

They really aren't that loud, that what I'm trying to figure out. I'm not sure if I have an amp problem or a speaker set-up problem.

 

[highfigh]

How old are you?

Proper system design involves determining the max and normal output levels, based on the speaker sensitivity and amplifier output voltage. Once those are determined, you need to make it reliable by providing adequate cooling and supply voltage. This also needs to consider the room size and any acoustical treatments because both will affect the apparent loudness/intensity.

If you want loud, you need speakers that are in the 100+dB/W/M range and a lot of power but if you actually create this system, your ears will eventually give up. They don't return to normal after hearing damage has occurred and that's not negotiable.

You should read this and realize that you're not risking hearing loss, you're PLANNING for it.

 

[lovinthehd]

I've entered my information, attached is the result. 130??? something doesn't seem right. I should have crazy volume.

I'd suspect CV's sensitivity spec is somewhat exaggerated, possibly along the lines of Klipsch using an "in-room" equivalent. Still, relatively sensitive speakers that will get quite loud with your current amp. Are you using an spl meter to determine things? Even a phone app might be okay, but at high spl may not work so well. Be nice to see some third party testing of these speakers but I don't see any; you could just be hitting limits, tho. To use the calculator more conservatively might not use the nearby walls thing, and only two speakers (the D-9s and D-3s have much different stated sensitivity). How do you have the speakers wired to the amp?

 

[davidscott]

Maybe buy some headphones with a good headphone amp and turn up the volume until your ears bleed?

 

[everettT]

IMHO I'd get yourself a high spl subwoofer and that will help with the added perception of loudness. There is no way that your mids and highs should be lacking in spl unless your living room is a concert hall and you sit 50' away.

 

[JoJo1]

Thanks for all the information. Decided to send my amp to Bryston for the "back to the future program".

 

[JoJo1]

I'd suspect CV's sensitivity spec is somewhat exaggerated, possibly along the lines of Klipsch using an "in-room" equivalent. Still, relatively sensitive speakers that will get quite loud with your current amp. Are you using an spl meter to determine things? Even a phone app might be okay, but at high spl may not work so well. Be nice to see some third party testing of these speakers but I don't see any; you could just be hitting limits, tho. To use the calculator more conservatively might not use the nearby walls thing, and only two speakers (the D-9s and D-3s have much different stated sensitivity). How do you have the speakers wired to the amp?

My speakers are set up in parallel.

 

[TLS Guy]

I just recently purchased a 4B Bryston amp, 2 cerwin vega D9 and 2 cerwin vega D3 ( D3 where added to help prevent clipping)

I know everyone states this should be loud enough but it's not, I like it loud. If i give it more volume than 3 o'clock it clips. I'm thinking of purchasing a second 4B and somehow running 1 amp for each side of speakers. Not really sure how it's done.

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

You have committed a howler. You never use two different speakers connected to the same amp. NEVER! That will create a complex load. If you ran an impedance curve on it, about it would be a nightmare. So you are most likely clipping because the amps can not provide the power to such a complex impedance and phase angles.

So, job one is to get rid of one set of speakers now.

The other issue is that you may well have already damaged that 4B Bryston amp with that abuse.

That amp is 300 watts per channel. the Cerwin Vega D9 are 350 watt speakers, and 101db sensitivity. That is quite enough power to render you stone deaf for the rest of your life.

You do not need more power, just correct engineering and not the Fred Kano variety which you have now.

 

[mtrycrafts]

My speakers are set up in parallel.

Yep, that is your problem.

 

[lovinthehd]

At first I thought the 4B referred to four amp channels...but looked it up and wondered then how you were wiring things up. I'd just use the D9s with the amp myself.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for all the information. Decided to send my amp to Bryston for the "back to the future program".

What is that program and just would the changes be?

 

[MrBoat]

Holy crap. I have a set of D9s and even with a 120 watt AVR I can't use more than half the power without hurting my ears, and this from someone who's hearing is certainly diminished via over 40 years in construction and metal work, not to mention my penchant for listening to loud music as long as that, too.

I had them hooked up to my GFA 5500 for a few years and never could really listen past 1/3 power without getting the cops called on me.

Not knowing the history of what/who those speakers have been thru, those could need work as well.

 

[Audiophile Heretic]

You have committed a howler. You never use two different speakers connected to the same amp. NEVER! That will create a complex load. If you ran an impedance curve on it, about it would be a nightmare. So you are most likely clipping because the amps can not provide the power to such a complex impedance and phase angles.

So, job one is to get rid of one set of speakers now.

The other issue is that you may well have already damaged that 4B Bryston amp with that abuse.

That amp is 300 watts per channel. the Cerwin Vega D9 are 350 watt speakers, and 101db sensitivity. That is quite enough power to render you stone deaf for the rest of your life.

You do not need more power, just correct engineering and not the Fred Kano variety which you have now.

Speakers are a complex load. Two different sets of speakers in parallel on the same amp are no more complex impedance than one speaker, although they are lower impedance, which may or may not be too low impedance for the amplifier at some frequencies and draw too much current. The impedances of two speakers in parallel do not effect each other if the amplifier is not overloaded by low impedance. The impedance curve of two speakers in parallel is not any more complex than one speaker. Impedance curves are measured with simple sine waves. Music is not a simple sine wave, so the impedance curve is a simplification.

However, if two different speakers are wired in series, the amplifier voltage is divided between the complex impedances of the two speakers, so the impedance curve of each speaker influences the frequency response of the other speaker. The higher impedance of speakers in series is less dangerous to the amplifier than the impedance of one speaker.

300W is 24.8dBW. If the speaker sensitivity is 101dB SPL at 1W at 1m, this amp with this speaker would be 126dB SPL at 300W at 1m. NIOSH Recommended Exposure Limit for 126dB SPL is 2 seconds in 24 hours. THX standard level is 85dB SPL at -20dBFS at the listening position. This amp with this speaker would be 105dB SPL at 300W at 11.7m or 38.5ft. NIOSH REL for 105dB SPL is 4 minutes 43 seconds in 24 hours. I value my hearing.

The volume control sets the voltage gain of the pre-amplifier that drives the main amplifier. The output voltage of the pre-amplifier depends on the source device output voltage and the voltage gain. The main amplifier output voltage depends on the voltage input to the amplifier and the voltage gain of the amplifier. The main amplifier output voltage and the speaker load impedance determine the output power. With music, full power of the system is probably reached well before the volume control is fully clockwise. With music, an arbitrary "three o'clock" position of the volume control would very likely overdrive the main amplifier to produce clipping, especially if it is driving low impedance with high current.