More questions about my HT new construction project....

S

stjoe

Enthusiast
Thanks for all of your help so far....my new project is moving along. I have plans done and to the bank. I expect them to finish and work to start just after Christmas. The construction plan is 90 days.

I have $19k in there for HT and security (not counting the construction, lighting, built-in cabinets) ....I think security will be about $1k of that.

I have met with 3 HT pros, and gotten one estimate so far. It was way too high, and I have asked for a scaled down proposal with the above budget. I am waiting for one more estimate, and I am also meeting with a guy who will do my cabling/wiring/setup as a moonlighting job in case it ends up making more sense for me to buy components on line myself.

Here are my questions now:

On advice from here, I have looked at Carada screens. I don't see motorized ones. I have soon to be 3 yr old twins, so motorized is probably best. Do I need to look elsewhere? Where?

I'm struggling on how to place the front speakers. I have 5 foot tall speakers I want to use. I am putting built-in cabinets left and right of my screen and that will take up the rest of the wall space. I also want to put my components there, but the speakers will probably eat up too much space to locate them below 5 feet. What about putting them behind the screen? Will that ruin the sound?

Speaking of space, every time my architect came back, my room kept getting smaller. Now I'm down to 20.5 by 15.5. I now have the screen on the 15.5 foot wall, and then a raised area 12 feet back, giving me 8.5 feet by 15.5 for a play area (cards, gaming, etc.). I'm paranoid about the viewing distance. Should I move this platform back, or shrink my screen? That is, will I likely be happy viewing from about 11 feet, or should I move the platform back and give up a little on the gaming side? This may just be a personal preference, but if I need to stay away from less than 12 feet, I sure need to know it now.

Also, part of what got my first proposal so high was a lot of money tied up in a Control 4 system, nice pre/pro+amp, controller, and much cabling. Based on advice from here and much reading, I'm confident I can get a projector for $3k or less, a screen for $1500 or less, an Oppo Blu Ray for $500, and a 50-60 inch LCD or Plasma for another den for $2k or less.

So I have about $11k to get my receiver/separates, run cable/wire in my HT room and back to the den for that new TV, run hard wire from my home network in another room, and somehow get a DirecTV connection to the other 5 TVs in the house, plus whatever labor is required. I just want the simplest thing that will work efficiently....I'm willing to punt the Control 4, fancy remote lighting, even extra speakers for the den, etc. What exactly do I need to consider for that $11k?
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Here are my questions now:

On advice from here, I have looked at Carada screens. I don't see motorized ones. I have soon to be 3 yr old twins, so motorized is probably best. Do I need to look elsewhere? Where?
If you are trying to lower your budget, then you need to stick with fixed frame. Because if you have a pull down, whether manual or motorized (does nothing for longevity btw), you will want tab tensioning. This means a lot more $$$$. The only cheap tensioned screen I know of is by Focupix, but I would do your due diligence there.

I'm struggling on how to place the front speakers. I have 5 foot tall speakers I want to use. I am putting built-in cabinets left and right of my screen and that will take up the rest of the wall space. I also want to put my components there, but the speakers will probably eat up too much space to locate them below 5 feet. What about putting them behind the screen? Will that ruin the sound?
Absolutely, it will ruin the sound, unless you go with acoustically transparent, which I've already covered in one of your other threads. Absolute no-no going behind screen otherwise. Another word of warning: be 300% sure on screen size before installing cabinets; I read about one guy ripping it all out as soon as he fired the picture up, as he knew he wanted bigger. Ok, another word of warning, be absolutely sure you want the electronics there, because IMO that is the ABSOLUTE WORST place to put them. You only do that if you have no other choice, IMO. Remember, additional ambient light kills your contrast at an exponential rate.

Speaking of space, every time my architect came back, my room kept getting smaller. Now I'm down to 20.5 by 15.5. I now have the screen on the 15.5 foot wall, and then a raised area 12 feet back, giving me 8.5 feet by 15.5 for a play area (cards, gaming, etc.). I'm paranoid about the viewing distance. Should I move this platform back, or shrink my screen? That is, will I likely be happy viewing from about 11 feet, or should I move the platform back and give up a little on the gaming side? This may just be a personal preference, but if I need to stay away from less than 12 feet, I sure need to know it now.
It would sure help to know what size you're even considering to begin with. Or am I supposed to sift through your other threads. "need to stay away from less than 12 feet", you mean from the screen? If the case, don't worry about it. The only situation where it really matters is if you go AT, as texture can be noticed by around 11.5' with those that have exceptional vision.
Also, part of what got my first proposal so high was a lot of money tied up in a Control 4 system, nice pre/pro+amp, controller, and much cabling. Based on advice from here and much reading, I'm confident I can get a projector for $3k or less, a screen for $1500 or less, an Oppo Blu Ray for $500, and a 50-60 inch LCD or Plasma for another den for $2k or less.
You could probably get . . .

plasma for $700ish: save $1,300.
panasonic bluray for $100ish: save $400
screen from about $400 (Focupix) to $900 (Carada): save $600-$1100

If interested in prebuilt Seymour tensioned AT screens, look here:
http://www.seymourav.com/screensretractable.asp

It will be way more expensive than my DIY of the same material. I paid something like $240 for the AT material, to build a 126" screen. I think the above will costs thousands, just don't know how many thousands.

So I have about $11k to get my receiver/separates, run cable/wire in my HT room and back to the den for that new TV, run hard wire from my home network in another room, and somehow get a DirecTV connection to the other 5 TVs in the house, plus whatever labor is required. I just want the simplest thing that will work efficiently....I'm willing to punt the Control 4, fancy remote lighting, even extra speakers for the den, etc. What exactly do I need to consider for that $11k?
I think BMX already covered that in a long and informative post for you, no?
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
As I said before - wish I lived nearby.

Your main breakdown is pretty much there.

If you need to go to a motorized screen, then it will need to be tab-tensioned, and I would lean towards a DaLite Tensioned Cosmopolitan Electrol...
http://www.da-lite.com/products/product.php?cID=29&pID=39

About $2,000 or so for 110" in high contrast cinema vision material or so. Add a bit more if you want an acoustically transparent screen.

Yes, you need a special screen if your intent is to locate speakers behind it.

I would strongly work to avoid putting your gear at the front of the room in line of site with the screen. Realistically, if you have an area under stairs, or a back storage area, I would recommend (strongly) putting your gear there. That way it isn't crammed into some fixed location and you have good airflow and access to the gear as you need it. Would need a good idea if this is possible or not in your setup, but the front of the room is one of the worst places with a front projection setup.

The rest of the money gets spent how you see fit to get what you want done.

If you want DirecTV boxes in all rooms, then that cabling is relatively inexpensive. If you want distributed video from a shared box it is far more expensive, but can be done. If you want distributed video from several centrally located boxes, then several pieces of CAT-5 are key.

I think I said before, but you really want to pick ONE spot in your home to cable everything to. Incoming DirecTV feeds to one spot, then out to all the locations in your home. It is far more common for them to run from the antenna straight to a bunch of boxes, but then you lose flexibility as things change and you have a mess of wires running outside your home.

Same with your networking.

I would generally pull 2-4 pieces of CAT-5 to every TV location and 2 pieces of coaxial cabling. This would cover a great deal of what may come your way down the road.

All that said, the sound and audio is important. It sounds like you may own some speakers already, so we are talking about a few more speakers and a receiver/amplifier of some sort and control?

The receiver/amp is important, but at the end of the day, if you want it simple, then you have to get good control in there. This is where things get tricky. You either have to get a decent user programmable remote, and put in the time figuring it out yourself and making sure it all works right, or you have to pay someone to do it all for you. In a single room system, this could take just a few hours with a URC remote, or with a whole house system it will typically take 20-40 hours of work depending on the complexity of your home system.

Of course, I think I spoke of Crestron before... it would take about 4 hours to setup a ML700 and a Crestron controller. So, about $900 for the theater with phenomenal reliability. But, for a single room, you may be better off with a stand alone Harmony remote... maybe. You can get directly controllable lights with some remotes as well, but Lutron Spacer System lights are IR controllable. About $100 a dimmer for IR controlled dimmable lighting.

This is all option stuff, because $11K is no small number - but it isn't huge. It's ENORMOUS to some, but realistically, it just isn't huge for a whole house system if you need the works.

So a tight breakdown of what you are looking to spend on things would make a lot of sense and a tight breakdown of some nicer things you may want to add would make sense as well.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING!!!

WIRE! WIRE! WIRE!

While the walls are open, forgo nicer gear or some things in some rooms right now to get the wiring in place which allows you the upgrade path you will want for the future.

If I knew you wanted whole house A/V then I would wire for it, then put in a controller which can handle it, but maybe just start you with one room. Maybe get a smaller TV in one room, which you can move to a secondary room in a few years when you buy a bigger TV later on. It doesn't force you to do it all at once right now, and allows you to get more down the line as you want to expand your system.

I spent about $6,000 on wiring for my home - that was the BEST money spent in my setup by far.
 
S

stjoe

Enthusiast
If you are trying to lower your budget, then you need to stick with fixed frame. Because if you have a pull down, whether manual or motorized (does nothing for longevity btw), you will want tab tensioning. This means a lot more $$$$. The only cheap tensioned screen I know of is by Focupix, but I would do your due diligence there.

OK. I'll reconsider fixed. Sounds like I can replace it once or twice before I reach the cost of a tab tensioned pull down.


Absolutely, it will ruin the sound, unless you go with acoustically transparent, which I've already covered in one of your other threads. Absolute no-no going behind screen otherwise. Another word of warning: be 300% sure on screen size before installing cabinets; I read about one guy ripping it all out as soon as he fired the picture up, as he knew he wanted bigger. Ok, another word of warning, be absolutely sure you want the electronics there, because IMO that is the ABSOLUTE WORST place to put them. You only do that if you have no other choice, IMO. Remember, additional ambient light kills your contrast at an exponential rate.

OK, looks like we'll design the built-ins to hold the speakers, and I'll find another home for the electronics. I was trying to not have to spend upwards of $1,000 for a rack or racks, but that may be a bad move.



It would sure help to know what size you're even considering to begin with. Or am I supposed to sift through your other threads. "need to stay away from less than 12 feet", you mean from the screen? If the case, don't worry about it. The only situation where it really matters is if you go AT, as texture can be noticed by around 11.5' with those that have exceptional vision.

15.5 foot wall. Up to 3 feet wide shelves on each side, leaving just less than 9.5 feet horizontal for the screen (114" minus an inch or two clearance on each side). I was looking at screens from about 100" to 110" outside horizontal distance. I COULD go to 32" shelves if need be. My real paranoia is that I will build that elevated area in the back of the seating and not be happy being about 11 feet from the screen......I sit about 20 feet from a 60" LCD in my den and I just don't know if I'll like being that close to a much larger screen.

You could probably get . . .

plasma for $700ish: save $1,300.
panasonic bluray for $100ish: save $400
screen from about $400 (Focupix) to $900 (Carada): save $600-$1100

True...I probably will go less on the LCD/Plasma. I got burned by reading reviews of the LG BD390 Blu Ray, and it's the buggiest piece of electronics I've owned. I may just buy the new OPPO, and be content that I have something that will work.

If interested in prebuilt Seymour tensioned AT screens, look here:
http://www.seymourav.com/screensretractable.asp

It will be way more expensive than my DIY of the same material. I paid something like $240 for the AT material, to build a 126" screen. I think the above will costs thousands, just don't know how many thousands.

I'll look.

I think BMX already covered that in a long and informative post for you, no?
He has given lots of great information, as have you, and I see he has replied again in this thread. Since my last post, the remaining $$ in my budget has firmed up, but I'm still trying to clarify what I need beyond the projector, screen, wiring, and lighting. I haven't even gotten to treatments yet! :D
 
Last edited by a moderator:
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... Ok, another word of warning, be absolutely sure you want the electronics there, because IMO that is the ABSOLUTE WORST place to put them. You only do that if you have no other choice, IMO. Remember, additional ambient light kills your contrast at an exponential rate.
...
Not to mention a huge distraction.:eek:
 
S

stjoe

Enthusiast
As I said before - wish I lived nearby.

Keep talking. There are $200 plane flights from Reagan.

Your main breakdown is pretty much there.

If you need to go to a motorized screen, then it will need to be tab-tensioned, and I would lean towards a DaLite Tensioned Cosmopolitan Electrol...
http://www.da-lite.com/products/product.php?cID=29&pID=39

I think you guys have me convinced to go fixed...still need to figure out how to keep 3 year olds at bay.


About $2,000 or so for 110" in high contrast cinema vision material or so. Add a bit more if you want an acoustically transparent screen.

Yes, you need a special screen if your intent is to locate speakers behind it.
I'll punt that idea.


I would strongly work to avoid putting your gear at the front of the room in line of site with the screen. Realistically, if you have an area under stairs, or a back storage area, I would recommend (strongly) putting your gear there. That way it isn't crammed into some fixed location and you have good airflow and access to the gear as you need it. Would need a good idea if this is possible or not in your setup, but the front of the room is one of the worst places with a front projection setup.

OK. I'll go elsewhere.


The rest of the money gets spent how you see fit to get what you want done.

If you want DirecTV boxes in all rooms, then that cabling is relatively inexpensive. If you want distributed video from a shared box it is far more expensive, but can be done. If you want distributed video from several centrally located boxes, then several pieces of CAT-5 are key.

I think I said before, but you really want to pick ONE spot in your home to cable everything to. Incoming DirecTV feeds to one spot, then out to all the locations in your home. It is far more common for them to run from the antenna straight to a bunch of boxes, but then you lose flexibility as things change and you have a mess of wires running outside your home.

Isn't there a likely future problem running these signals through anything but HDMI to the other tv's? Is that just way off base?


Same with your networking.

I would generally pull 2-4 pieces of CAT-5 to every TV location and 2 pieces of coaxial cabling. This would cover a great deal of what may come your way down the road.

All that said, the sound and audio is important. It sounds like you may own some speakers already, so we are talking about a few more speakers and a receiver/amplifier of some sort and control?

Yes. But I am debating external speakers for my casual watching in my den, and I will not need them for bedrooms, kitchen, exercise room, etc. I do want to add some builtins for my new sunroom and possibly for my patio.


The receiver/amp is important, but at the end of the day, if you want it simple, then you have to get good control in there. This is where things get tricky. You either have to get a decent user programmable remote, and put in the time figuring it out yourself and making sure it all works right, or you have to pay someone to do it all for you. In a single room system, this could take just a few hours with a URC remote, or with a whole house system it will typically take 20-40 hours of work depending on the complexity of your home system.

Yep. This is where I get lost. The most I have ever done is programmed my Home Theater Master remote to handle multiple devices. I have never used separates or a "switcher," whatever that is. Let me ask this. If I end up needing an additional amp, is there anything wrong with using my Denon 3805 for that, or should I just plan on using new components? Based on what you guys have told me so far, I think I need separates...both for power and if I want outputs to several areas.


Of course, I think I spoke of Crestron before... it would take about 4 hours to setup a ML700 and a Crestron controller. So, about $900 for the theater with phenomenal reliability. But, for a single room, you may be better off with a stand alone Harmony remote... maybe. You can get directly controllable lights with some remotes as well, but Lutron Spacer System lights are IR controllable. About $100 a dimmer for IR controlled dimmable lighting.

I pretty much disregarded the Crestron idea, because it has been my understanding that it is priced at 1.5 to 2 times the Control 4 system. The estimate I had for the Control 4 system was already seriously eating into my budget. It's frustrating, because I don't want anything too fancy....just to be able to use the equipment in each room to it's desired effect without running back and forth between rooms or to have to pick up 4 remotes.
This is all option stuff, because $11K is no small number - but it isn't huge. It's ENORMOUS to some, but realistically, it just isn't huge for a whole house system if you need the works.

Let me see what more estimates will bring, but the entire $19k budget is looking pretty minuscule right now.

So a tight breakdown of what you are looking to spend on things would make a lot of sense and a tight breakdown of some nicer things you may want to add would make sense as well.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING!!!

WIRE! WIRE! WIRE!

While the walls are open, forgo nicer gear or some things in some rooms right now to get the wiring in place which allows you the upgrade path you will want for the future.

If I knew you wanted whole house A/V then I would wire for it, then put in a controller which can handle it, but maybe just start you with one room. Maybe get a smaller TV in one room, which you can move to a secondary room in a few years when you buy a bigger TV later on. It doesn't force you to do it all at once right now, and allows you to get more down the line as you want to expand your system.

I spent about $6,000 on wiring for my home - that was the BEST money spent in my setup by far.
I will make sure I do that to the new addition and den where I am installing the new above fireplace tv, and then see if I can afford to run to the rest of the house right now.

Thanks again for all your help.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
OK. I'll reconsider fixed. Sounds like I can replace it once or twice before I reach the cost of a tab tensioned pull down.
The frame is the most expensive part of a screen purchase, not the material.

I know with particularly the AT material from Seymour, the CenterStage XD, if you ever soil or ruin your screen fabric, you can actually just flip it around. The prebuilt are often attached by grommets, so I bet it's not even hard. Say you ruin both* sides, like I said, my screen is bigger, and yet the material is only $240 (and I bought significant excess to maximize tilt). Seymour can explain that to you. However, to buy fabric with grommets built in will surely cost a bit more, still, you can probably replace the material multiple times, having ruined both sides multiple times, before you hit the price point of a good tab tensioned.

I only speak of that particular material; it would take research on your behalf to know which materials can be flipped, as far as other brands are concerned.

OK, looks like we'll design the built-ins to hold the speakers, and I'll find another home for the electronics. I was trying to not have to spend upwards of $1,000 for a rack or racks, but that may be a bad move.
I think because of the very large scale of your project, it's worth spending on "real" racks, assuming you have the disposable income. I don't have a real rack, but use a $200 Studio tech modular (if you want to add shelves after everything is installed, it's a pain, gotta remove everything and flip upside down). I'd like a real one someday, especially if I add more components. The next component I foresee is a CMS device. Maybe a gaming machine one day, but I sort of doubt it.

That said, depending on all of the options and bling you outfit the rack with, the price can get up there for sure.

15.5 foot wall. Up to 3 feet wide shelves on each side, leaving just less than 9.5 feet horizontal for the screen (114" minus an inch or two clearance on each side). I was looking at screens from about 100" to 110" outside horizontal distance. I COULD go to 32" shelves if need be. My real paranoia is that I will build that elevated area in the back of the seating and not be happy being about 11 feet from the screen......I sit about 20 feet from a 60" LCD in my den and I just don't know if I'll like being that close to a much larger screen.
Gee 20 ft from a 60" LCD, and you're worried? Assuming 20/20, did you know that you can't even get the full resolution of 480?? That's right, you can't even resolve what DVD has to offer on an old CRT. I think you might be able to resolve the full resolution of VHS though.

The ballpark size of screen you're looking at, with the ballpark distance, is pretty much right on the money of hitting the threshold where you can finally resolve 1080p. However, many go bigger than that to get to THX recommended viewing angles, and others go bigger yet, like myself.

True...I probably will go less on the LCD/Plasma. I got burned by reading reviews of the LG BD390 Blu Ray, and it's the buggiest piece of electronics I've owned. I may just buy the new OPPO, and be content that I have something that will work.
That's why I like Panasonic for the budget conscious. It can be easily argued that they have consistently made the least buggiest of all brands, and that's including Oppo. Pretty nice at the $100-130 ballpark. They own the majority of bluray patents, and at least for a multiple year stretch there, it seemed there was the most FW support and/or feedback with them at AVS.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I may not be able to convince you on this, but if you have open walls, I would be looking at the following type of setup:

Theater: Surround zone
All wiring to head end
Front projection
A/V receiver (pick one)
Blu-ray player (Panasonic is extremely reliable for the money, Oppo is best in show)
Client Furnished (CFE) DirecTV
Speakers (pick some)
Crestron ML-600 remote ($250)

Family room - stereo zone w/TV
All wiring to head end - 4 pieces of cat-5, 2 pieces of coax, stereo audio wiring
TV (find one)
Stereo speakers
Creston ML-600 remote ($250)

Other rooms - stereo zones w/TV
Wire 4 pieces of CAT-5 to TV location + 2 Coax
Use local speakers
No control to start with.

Head end - 2 zone receiver for theater and family room, maybe an external amp to run the family room speakers.

All sources run into the A/V receiver.
HDMI balun for video to family room TV. (Under $100!)
Crestron CP2e for control ($600ish)
Crestron RF receiver for wireless RF control ($200ish)

The ML-600 is actually the same as the URC MX-850 which can be had as b-stock, confirmed working, for not a lot of cash.

http://www.crestron.com/products/show_products.asp?jump=1&model=ML-600

You don't get fancy feedback on the remote, but you get one of the most reliable remotes on the market - which is incredibly durable - combine with a very reasonable price and tied into the most reliable system out there.

Anyway, I'm not sure someone will come along and give all of that to you the same way that I would locally, but that's the type of dealer you should be looking for in your area, and you may want a few more bids to get things taken care of the way you want.
 
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