More Power = Less Volume?

H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
For my HT, I had a Yamaha RX-V671, (125wpc), and 4x Aperion Verus Grand Towers & Center. I never turned my volume to reference level, (0dB), or louder. It was WAY too loud if I did. LOUD movies were at -20dB.

I replaced the Yamaha with a Denon X4000 and Emotiva XPA-5, (200wpc).

Now I have to adjust the volume to a considerably higher setting to get the same output. Sometimes I go to -10dB... sometimes even closer to 0, (for a very short time if my wife isn't home). Different sources, SAT/Bluray/Music, are clearly different levels.

Settings in the X4000 seem to limit volume to 0dB max. So I couldn't go to +anything if I wanted to.

1) Is it unusual for a setting, (say -10dB), to be noticeably louder on one system than another... particularaly when it's louder on the system w/ less power?

2) Does my X4000 really max out at 0dB? It just seems to me that an X4000/XPA5/4x Aperion Grand Towers/Rythmik FV15HP would be capable of insane high quality volume in my living room.

(BTW, the system sound is superb! I have no issue w/ the sound quality. And frankly doubt I would ever go louder than I do now, even if I could. I just sort of expected this system would go WAY louder than it does.)

Thanks, Herb
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
This is precisely why it is so crucial to volume level match when comparing speakers, amps, ect.

It is completely normal due to a variety of reasons.

Go into Menu, System setup, speaker channel levels, and you will probably see that the speaker channel levels on the Denon is most likely much lower than the Yamaha. Increase the speaker channel level on the Denon and you will hear the same volume as the Yamaha.

For example, on the Yamaha, front left may be set to 0.0, while on the Denon front left may be set to -6.0. Thus, the Yamaha would sound 6dB louder.

When you run Audyssey, it will set all speakers and subs to the 75dB level. It doesn't have to be this way if you don't want. For example, I like to manually set all my speakers and subs channel levels to 80dB. But 75dB is the usual "standard".
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I don't use the program to set up levels, I use my db meter and do them manually, it always sounds better than when the mic and pro do it, I tried with yammy, denon, Pio, and the emo {the pio did the best mcacc}. But I prefer manual, a db spl meter can be bought for $20 or so....

A note I went from a yammy avr {130w pc} to the xpa5 and I can tell you first hand it is louder and cleaner through out the range...
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Now I have to adjust the volume to a considerably higher setting to get the same output. Sometimes I go to -10dB... sometimes even closer to 0, (for a very short time if my wife isn't home). Different sources, SAT/Bluray/Music, are clearly different levels.
As ADTG explained, check your Audyssey settings, depending on what it has to do with your sub it could have trim the other 5 speakers down to maintain a better balance.


Settings in the X4000 seem to limit volume to 0dB max. So I couldn't go to +anything if I wanted to.
Did you buy it brand new in the box? According to Owner's manual page 156, the default setting is "Off", that means no limit and it should go up to +18dB. It looks like somehow you have the volume limit set to "0". If that is the case, just set it back to "Off".

1) Is it unusual for a setting, (say -10dB), to be noticeably louder on one system than another... particularaly when it's louder on the system w/ less power?
ADTG mentioned one possible reason, I would add that if Audyssey did trim the levels down by 3 to 6 dB and you don't like that, you should lower the subwoofer's volume and run Audyssey again. If you increase the trim levels manually then to maintain the proper balance you will have to increase the sub's trim level by the same amount and that is not a good idea. I highly recommend you read Audyssey 101. Or at least read about speaker trim levels I pasted below.

Speaker Trim Levels

Chris Kyriakakis September 29, 2012

Trim levels are just relative numbers. There is nothing wrong (or different) about negative trims. The point of calibrating levels is to (1) achieve the same level for every speaker and (2) play at film reference when the master volume is at 0.
If the speakers have high sensitivity, or are close to the listening position (or both) then the trim levels will show up negative to achieve the goals mentioned above. It's not a good idea to change the trims because that will throw off the Dynamic EQ calibration. If you want the system to play louder just turn up the master volume.
SPL meters need calibration so it's possible that there is enough discrepancy between the meter and the Audyssey mic to show different readings. Also, the internal test noise of the AVR is a slightly different way of calculating level than what Audyssey does using psychoacoustic weighting of the measured response.
In any case, it's not a huge deal to change the trims if you feel the need to (keeping in mind the implications on Dynamic EQ). The most important part of Audyssey--the filters--are not affected by trim levels.



2) Does my X4000 really max out at 0dB?
The way you describe it, that even if you try to turn it up further it remains at 0, then I would say the volume limit is "On" but you can set it to "Off" then you can go pass 0.

(BTW, the system sound is superb! I have no issue w/ the sound quality. And frankly doubt I would ever go louder than I do now, even if I could. I just sort of expected this system would go WAY louder than it does.)

I would still set volume limit to "Off" for peace of mind but agree, stay well below that point or you risk damaging your hearing. If -10 sounds loud enough for you, that's good, the lower the better. I keep mine at around -20 most of the time but it depends on your speaker sensitivities, room acoustics and other factors. Did you check the spl with a spl meter?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
IMHO, you can set everything manually to you liking for sure. I prefer to rely on Audyssey or others great effort in trying to reproduce the live concert experience. I know perfection is difficult to achieve but I go to enough live concerts to know that Audyssey does a decent job and would no longer bother spending hours and hours to tweak EQ myself. As they say, YMMV..

Oh, and I really enjoy DEQ and won't do anything to degrade it.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
IMHO, you can set everything manually to you liking for sure. I prefer to rely on Audyssey or others great effort in trying to reproduce the live concert experience. I know perfection is difficult to achieve but I go to enough live concerts to know that Audyssey does a decent job and would no longer bother spending hours and hours to tweak EQ myself. As they say, YMMV..

Oh, and I really enjoy DEQ and won't do anything to degrade it.
True.

I think Audyssey is accurate with all the STANDARD settings.

Increasing speaker channel levels (trim levels) will change Dynamic EQ; it seems to augment the bass effects, which I prefer. :D

So like all EQ, it allows tailoring to fit your personal taste. :D

And yes, I really enjoy DEQ also.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Be advised that any channel trim level set to a boost (+), will decrease the max volume level accordingly...
If 1 channel is +5dB, then the max volume level will be decreased by -5dB..

Just my $0.05... ;)
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Be advised that any channel trim level set to a boost (+), will decrease the max volume level accordingly...
If 1 channel is +5dB, then the max volume level will be decreased by -5dB..

Just my $0.05... ;)
But how does this affect or apply to real life situation ?

You certainly don't want to listen to excessively dangerous volume (like 90dBA continuous) no matter the trim level.
 
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H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks guys. Ya'll are all right.
1) Volume Limit is set to 0
2) Sub 1 was set to -6dB
3) Sub 2 was set to -2dB
4) Speaker settings range from -5.5 (Surround left), to +3 (Surround Back left)

Yes, I bought it NIB from Denon, and most likely set the volume limit while playing w/ all the settings. Sounds like I need to turn down the Rythmik FV15HP and rerun Audyssey. Due to the T-shape of my room, the Surround L&R are close to our seats, so I know they'll be set lower than the fronts.

I think I'm hearing that the regular speakers are set to align with the sub in Audyssey. So by extension, manually changing the level of the sub(s) mean the level of the other speakers will be changed by Audyssey too. When I originally ran Audyssey, it told me the sub level was too high, and asked me to lower the sub volume until I hit the "green" level. I did, but just barely. Maybe I should turn it down to the bottom of "green" instead of the top, and then see what happens.

Like I said, the system sounds good. But now I'm wondering if damping the signal to some of the speakers means it doesn't sound as good as it could. You guys have once again given me some insight, and some settings to play with. Thanks!!!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I do recommend you re-run Audyssey but this time read the fine print and then following their recommendations exactly, pay special attention to the measurement tips and Subwoofer setup tips.

How to MultEQ | Audyssey

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/76175-Subwoofer-setup-and-MultEQ

Note that in the second link, point 3, it says:

The level control on the subwoofer is often set too high. This can cause the AV Receiver to run out of level correction range when MultEQ tries to set the subwoofer to reference level. Set the subwoofer level control to the midpoint. If MultEQ reports high negative trims (e.g., –12 dB) for the subwoofer, then you should turn the level control further down and run MultEQ again

I found that with XT32 (such as your X-4000's) version, I had to turn my SVS PC Ultra's volume all the way down to the 9:00 position, that's well below the "midpoint" that suggested.

If you don't strictly follow their instructions you would not likely get accurate results and may be better off turn Audyssey off.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Shouldn't we set up the volume so that it never exceeds a certain level, set your volume limit or trims so you don't break a certain db level, then at your loudest you will be at 0? I don't do this, but I do notice that I never go above half way even when "showing off", but I have fallen a sleep on the remote before to wake up to the house shaking to a cereal commercial...
 
psbfan9

psbfan9

Audioholic Samurai
I do recommend you re-run Audyssey but this time read the fine print and then following their recommendations exactly, pay special attention to the measurement tips and Subwoofer setup tips.

How to MultEQ | Audyssey

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/76175-Subwoofer-setup-and-MultEQ

Note that in the second link, point 3, it says:

The level control on the subwoofer is often set too high. This can cause the AV Receiver to run out of level correction range when MultEQ tries to set the subwoofer to reference level. Set the subwoofer level control to the midpoint. If MultEQ reports high negative trims (e.g., –12 dB) for the subwoofer, then you should turn the level control further down and run MultEQ again
I wish I could find tip sites like these for YPAO.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I wish I could find tip sites like these for YPAO.
Some of those tips seem generic enough that they might be applicable to YPAO but you can always make a list of questions and email Yamaha tech support. I emailed Chris (Audyssey founder) and he (or his delegates I suppose) always responded within a couple of days.
 
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