Missing mid-range??

R

rolyasm

Full Audioholic
Hello,
I just help a friend sutup his room using Klipsch RF-63's, 64 center and some surrounds. We built a modified IB subwoofer using 2 18" woofers powered by a Behringer 2500. I checked with the sub manufactorer and they agree we have plenty of power to each sub. Here is the problem.
It sounds like something is missing. We have great low bass, I mean very loud and low. WOW. But... the subs aren't producing the tight midrange noises well. It just sounds a little muffled and explosions really aren't that loud until the range drops into the lower end. The strange thing is that when he as DTS on, it sounds a lot better, like 70% better. He could live with it if it was always in DTS. Dolby isn't so good. We are using a 7 channel amp by Sherwood and a Processor by Atlantic Technology. I am planning on trying to run some test tones through a program and find out if there is a big dip anywhere. I have tested my subs before, but not a whole system. I am sure to have some minimal difficulty with it. Is my only solution to do testing, or do you all have another thought? Thanks for any ideas.
Roly
 
D

Dolby CP-200

Banned
I take it this is what is being used in the home cinema set-up? Well let’s see a few pictures of this know problem I might just have an answer for you, pictures first mid you.

Also what is the settings on the AVR Sherwood level outputs and delay settings?





 
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R

rolyasm

Full Audioholic
Those are the speakers. As far as the setting, I have tried numerous things. I initially set the xover at 80. Currently it is at 60 and I think it sounds best that way. 40 xover didn't sound any better, and perhaps worse than 60. I am using a dedicated 7 channel AMP (Sherwood A965) that has no settings available, and an Atlantic Technology P2000 processor. As far as the delay settings, I used a measuring tape and SPL meter. I have all the speakers set to large curently, with Sub output. I tried setting all speakers to small, but I think it had better sound set to large with xover at 60. I calibrated the system, and then turned up the center channel's output 3 dB. Thanks .
Roly
 
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M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
The definition of 'mid-range' can vary but in any case it is nearly always well above the range typically reproduced by a subwoofer so I guess I'm confused too.

Regarding DTS vs Dolby, DTS is nearly always mastered hotter (some processors automatically attenuate DTS by 4 dB to compensate) and louder is always considered 'better' by typical ears.
 
D

Dolby CP-200

Banned
Check the fronts LCR over again independently, first check (left and right) and lastly followed by adding the centre channel. Now you should be looking for a equal level on the (left and right) channels if you’re suspicious that one of them is wired out of phase reverse one of the leads to the fronts if the level goes up on the SPL db metre its in phase.

Now try the centre channel with left and right turned on and while playing wideband pink noise you should see an increase in the level when adding the centre channel, if you don’t see this reverse the lead for the centre channel if the level goes up its in phase.

Next play the LFE.1, but make sure you set the level to match one of the front channels, lets use the centre shall we, turn off the left and right and if you can see the level going up on the SPL db meter its in phase if the level is the same is out of phase, I’d say you’d solve this before the weekend.

A good Behringer DCX2496 with dedicated matching amplifiers driving the large Klipsch in active crossover mode might add more punch as well as the good features of its own crossover filters to address these common problems. Buy a few DCX2496 one for the fronts LCR and one for the sub and surrounds, and third to do the rest of the surrounds, you can’t make too many mistakes with this.

What else can I throw in you’re direction? “Arachnophobia” now that sounded awesome in THX during the title opening, the deep depth in (Trevor Jones) score was octave to octave of chest pounding tummy rumbling and in you’re face bass which is mostly produced from the centre channel on those large JBL 4675-A loudspeakers that is how its meant to be, now if you can get that happening without the mid high and high range being too unsafe in the dbA range of 85dbA with solid dbC going up to 105dbC to about 110dbC without stain, I’d say you it the jackpot almost!

The magic requires THX baffle wall to prevent the sound waves travelling back behind the loudspeakers, thus reinforcing the bass and projecting it out into the room.:p
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
It sounds like you may have some dips. You’ll probably want to add an EQ on the sub and some bass traps. As you know from analyzing your room, a FR reading of the room would help. Perhaps you could elaborate on the IB and its placement. Are you or your friend members of the "IB Cult"?
 
R

rolyasm

Full Audioholic
Thanks all,
Sorry for the confusion. I didn't really mean the "Subs" weren't playing the midrange, I just meant that I think the midrange is lacking. I know the Klipsch state a +/- 3dB of like 31 HZ, so I didn't think they were the issue, although I realize the room may be an issue as well. I will test the phase, that is a good place to start.
So the Behringer DCX2496 lets you equalize each speaker independantly? Is the idea to test tone each speaker and equalize it as best you can for the room? What else might it do for me?
I am not a member of the IB, as I mostly mooch off of their infinite knowledge and contribute very little myself. These speakers are placed almost directly behind the center channel. Here is the website for the drivers. We used 2 18" Fi speakers modified and built for IB use in a singe coil 4 ohm version. I am using a single channel on my Behringer for each sub. The speakers are mounted manifold style, both facing into the room, mounted to MDF . The space behind the subs is about 1700 CF.
You spoke of THX baffle. On the IB site, I usually don't see anything behind the speakers. Are you talking about reinforcing the wall? If you have any pics, Dolby CP, let me take a look, or point me in the right direction. Thanks for the suggestions. I will try to get some measurements tomorrow.

Roly
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks all,
Sorry for the confusion. I didn't really mean the "Subs" weren't playing the midrange, I just meant that I think the midrange is lacking. I know the Klipsch state a +/- 3dB of like 31 HZ, so I didn't think they were the issue, although I realize the room may be an issue as well. I will test the phase, that is a good place to start.
So the Behringer DCX2496 lets you equalize each speaker independantly? Is the idea to test tone each speaker and equalize it as best you can for the room? What else might it do for me?
I am not a member of the IB, as I mostly mooch off of their infinite knowledge and contribute very little myself. These speakers are placed almost directly behind the center channel. Here is the website for the drivers. We used 2 18" Fi speakers modified and built for IB use in a singe coil 4 ohm version. I am using a single channel on my Behringer for each sub. The speakers are mounted manifold style, both facing into the room, mounted to MDF . The space behind the subs is about 1700 CF.
You spoke of THX baffle. On the IB site, I usually don't see anything behind the speakers. Are you talking about reinforcing the wall? If you have any pics, Dolby CP, let me take a look, or point me in the right direction. Thanks for the suggestions. I will try to get some measurements tomorrow.

Roly

Well, I am still confused which mid range you are referring to as you brought up 31Hz at +/-3dB. Is it your main speakers that you have issues with?
To find out, you would need to test it: pink noise and RTA-real time analyzer. Then that 2496 might help.
 
R

rolyasm

Full Audioholic
I am going to try and test today. I have used the EQ Wizard before for my own sub, but havn't used it on an entire system. Is this sufficient, or do I really need an RTA. I am assuming if there is a problem with missing frequencies it will show up when I run test tones through the speakers and sub. Is this correct? Thanks
Roly
 
B

bpape

Audioholic Chief
Set the mains to small. You likely have a combination of cancellations between subs and mains doing the same frequencies and the subs being set too high level wise.

Bryan
 
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