Mid-Fi Upgrade in Converted Church/House?

[AaronDC]

Hi,

My first post here after obsessively researching and not really finding an answer. I'd like to improve sound quality in the great room of my house (a small converted church). Here's my setup:

-- Four Mission M77s (bi-wired with Blue Jeans Canare 4S1) located at opposite ends of 40'L x 19'w x 9-15'H vaulted ceiling. See architectural drawings attached. The Missions are the red boxes on the drawings.
-- Onkyo TX8050 receiver/amp
-- Sonos Connect running Spotify (320Kbps) or Tidal (Lossless FLAC) as well as streaming radio.
-- I play music only: dance, electronica, indie, eclectic.
-- Budget for improvements: $1,000.
-- Home furnishings tend toward rugs, midcentury wood, not a lot of soft stuff.
-- Great room has good height, lots of interfering trusses, and other complicated architectural elements, windows, etc, which I'm gathering might be helpful.

The story:

My preferred signature is warmer I guess. My mid-fi headphone setup is this: Senn 650HDs on a JDS 02 amp/DAC sourced from a MacBook running Spotify/Tidal.

I'm feeling like something is lacking. "Presence" might be a word. I just don't inhabit the music. The sound is "just OK". I thought it might be insufficient controlled bass. Maybe it is. I got a Sonos Bass module, placed it under the couch in the center of the great room, hated it and returned it. Too boomy and muddy (Not knowing at the time about proper subwoofer location). Then I thought I needed a sealed subwoofer... and started reading about room design... and source audio (I'm trying Tidal lossless now and can't detect a difference between that and the Sonos 320)... and now I'm slowing driving myself crazy. I have no idea where my low hanging fruit will be for a $1,000 upgrade. I discovered that I may have a problem with my speaker locations with my rear-ported Missions (6" from the wall at most) and near ceiling/wall corners -- all of the wires were installed inside the wall envelope when we renovated. (yeah, look at the drawings). Looks nice, but ugh no flexibility.

I have small children who will destroy any floor standing speaker (I think a sub would be fine though) as well as a wife who has zeeeeroooo interest in audio quality. Basically, I'd really rather keep our speakers where they are. Bookshelf models out of the powerful/curious hands of my children.

So, what should I be looking at? A sealed sub? A speaker upgrade? Try again with that Sonos Sub and place it properly? I tried a $0 upgrade by stuffing rags into the rear speaker ports and it just got rid of some bass which wasn't productive. Maybe an unported SVS setup? I just have no idea.

One idea: just upgrade 2 of the speakers on the living room side (where I do more focused listening) and leave the ones in the kitchen as is?

So there it is! Thanks for any ideas you might have!

Aaron

Floor Plan .pdf
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-KWtotXk7wUUUhUdW9pXzRGa0U

Elevation .pdf
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-KWtotXk7wUaUphaWJQYjZuU0k

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

I can’t find any meaningful information on your speakers. Are they bookshelf or floor-standing? In either case, what is the size of the woofers?

What is the approximate cubic ft. of the listening area, including all areas that open up to it?

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[AaronDC]

Oops! They're Mission M71 speakers. Sorry!

Bookshelf.
LF: 130mm (5.1 in) bonded woven glass composite cone with 25mm (1 in) voice coil
HF: 25mm (1 in) sheer Micro-Fibre soft dome with FF cooling

Cubic Feet in Room: 7,980 with a single door-sized opening to another area measuring about 5,000 cu ft.

I can only guess where you're going with this...

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

-- Four Mission M77s (bi-wired with Blue Jeans Canare 4S1) located at opposite ends of 40'L x 19'w x 9-15'H vaulted ceiling. See architectural drawings attached. The Missions are the red boxes on the drawings.

I'm going to average vaulted ceilings height to 12 and rest of room size is comes to about 9100 cuft.
SonosSub in that space would rough equivalent of puppy farts.. pardon my french.

you need a sub. At your 1k budget even if fully invested in sub alone would barely be sufficient
I'd recommend these subs to consider:
http://reactionaudio.com/Echo-15_p_41.html
or
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/vented-subwoofers/products/15v

psa has an advantage of downfiring woofer which makes it more children proof.

 

[Swerd]

Hi, and welcome to Audioholics.

-- Four Mission M77s (bi-wired with Blue Jeans Canare 4S1) located at opposite ends of 40'L x 19'w x 9-15'H vaulted ceiling.
-- Onkyo TX8050 receiver/amp
-- I play music only: dance, electronica, indie, eclectic.
-- Budget for improvements: $1,000.

I'm feeling like something is lacking…

I think you do know where we are going…

You have, by any standards, a very large room. For frequencies below roughly 200-300 Hz the room volume matters most, and for frequencies above that, the distance between speakers and listeners matters most.

Working in your favor is the high vaulted ceiling – it would be worse if it were low and parallel to the floor. Count your blessings .

Your M71 speakers are probably alright, I haven't heard them, but they are small and can only move so much air. Stereophile had a review of them a number of years ago. Their measurements confirmed a sensitivity of 88 dB (a high number for such a small speaker). Even if it's true, they will be lost in such a large room as yours. Those are bedroom-sized speakers in a room larger than in most any home, but smaller than an airport waiting room. Ignore the distance between your speakers and the wall behind them, and likewise ignore the wiring method. Those speakers are inadequate for your room.

Read the measurements pages of that review. It talks about some noise made in the 600 to 1100 Hz range. I wonder if that translates to the 'lack of presence' you mentioned, especially when played loud.

In addition, although your receiver seems to be able to drive 4 of those speakers at once (do you always listen with all 4?), at 80 wpc, it is at best, modestly powered for such a large room.

I don't know what you can do for $1000. You need more potent speakers and a more powerful amp to drive them. And yes, you also need a subwoofer.

Your kids may be small and uncivilized now, but not always. Never underestimate their ability to learn and be trained not to destroy things.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

From what I can find, the speakers have 5-1/4” woofers. The problem, I expect, is that the speakers are too small for the room. Adding a sub as recommended will definitely make an improvement, but the speakers probably won’t blend well with the sub. Measured response of combined mains and subs will probably show deficiency in the upper bass range (~80-200 Hz). You may well need larger, floor-standing models with larger woofers to get a good blend with the mains, or at least bookshelf models with 6-1/2” -8” woofers.

Since you use the system primarily for music, you can probably get by with a lesser sub than Bored recommended, assuming you keep things at reasonable volumes (below 90 dB). For high volumes and/or movies, you may well need two capable subs.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Swerd]

Your name, AaronDC, makes me wonder if you are in the Washington, DC area. Yes?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Among the lines of Swerd and Wayne suggestions I think you should consider new speakers:
Few High Efficiently options:
High Value/Budget mid-fi:
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hb-1.html
and serious upgrade:
http://reactionaudio.com/AXIS-10-SR-High-Efficiency-Surround-Loudspeaker-_p_47.html
Both allow 30 days home trial, but RA includes free shipping (not sure if free return), while HSU doesn't.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Your name, AaronDC, makes me wonder if you are in the Washington, DC area. Yes?

Check attached floor plan on the bottom, I assume OP lives not far from Rockville, MD

 

[Swerd]

Architect is nearby me. Hmmm… what about AaronDC?

Just spit-balling here, but I think what AaronDC needs is a pair of ER18 MTM speakers. They are a DIY kit, the parts are already selected and a custom crossover is already designed. Parts kits for a pair are available for $646 at Meniscus Audio. Someone has to build the cabinets. Cabinet plans are in the first link.

Perhaps AaronDC would be interested in a pair of these sturdy and rather heavy floor standing speakers. They could be unfinished or painted now, and once the ankle-biters acquire more civilizing, they could be veneered nicely. All for less than $1000. Your existing receiver should easily be able to drive them.

I could be talked into helping with the crossover assembly.

I think they might sound wonderful in his small church – and it is possible that a subwoofer could be delayed for a later time.

 

[AaronDC]

Your name, AaronDC, makes me wonder if you are in the Washington, DC area. Yes?

Yes. Glen Echo.

 

[Swerd]

Yes. Glen Echo.

You are in luck. You live within a stone's throw from Dennis Murphy, a most excellent speaker designer. His speaker designs EASILY sound better than commercially sold speakers selling for much higher prices. I may sound like a biased fanboy (I admit guilt), but I assure you I am not exaggerating.

He designed the ER18 MTM I mentioned, he designed nearly all the speakers selling at Salk Signature Speakers (most of them are out of your price range ), and he owns & operates his own smaller company Philharmonic Audio from his home nearby you in Glen Echo.

I urge you to contact Dennis by email so you can hear what his speakers sound like. He is happy to have visitors. He might enjoy a challenge like your converted church.

I also urge you to contact me by PM. I just maybe could be persuaded to come up with something used that might suit you.

 

[AaronDC]

OK, so I'm going with a Hsu VTF-2 MK4 Subwoofer and a new amp with bass management (TBD). Frankly I'll be happy to get rid of my Onkyo. I guess it's a good amp, but it has to have the worst user interface of any kind for its Internet-enabled features. Next phase might be to replace two of the Missions...

Thanks for the feedback!!

 

[Swerd]

OK, so I'm going with a Hsu VTF-2 MK4 Subwoofer and a new amp with bass management (TBD). Frankly I'll be happy to get rid of my Onkyo. I guess it's a good amp, but it has to have the worst user interface of any kind for its Internet-enabled features. Next phase might be to replace two of the Missions...

Good luck!

I overlooked this before, but an inexpensive replacement for those Missions might be Dennis Murphy's Affordable Accuracy Monitors. They are low priced ($195 per pair) and surprisingly good.

 

[TLS Guy]

You are wasting time and money on that budget.

I have designed and installed systems in spaces that big and bigger. Forget using domestic equipment. In that space you are in the fully pro league. You need full professional equipment down the line.

I would save your money and buy tickets to the cinema.