Marantz SR8012 - Really disappointed with sound quality

witchdoctor

witchdoctor

Full Audioholic
Cost and product are immaterial. Amir’s point is being made regarding all such devices. Until or unless you post something more meaningful than links to Amazon reviews and more conjecture videos or personal subjective experience, nobody here will take you seriously.
So, yes, we will continue to disagree.
I, along with many others, will continue to look at the science of it and rely on the words of true engineers rather than any random person making such claims.
While there are sites you can get accolades for preaching the amaze-ball differences you think you experience, places like AH and ASR really don’t cater to that crowd. Not when we have actual engineers showing us what happens when similar items you have espoused are inserted into the chain (be it from wall outlet or wherever).

Thats it. It is that simple. If you bring something meaningful to the table you will find a different experience here.
In fact, since you have such an interest in these items and have recommended them in many threads, why not send them to Amir to test for you! They are your claims and the burden of proof is on you. So try it: beat us at our own game. ;)

Cheers.
It seems you have made up your mind and that is fine. I, along with many others who actually try different products, keep the best and return the rest. If you choose not to why would I possibly care?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Other power cord reviews
 
witchdoctor

witchdoctor

Full Audioholic
For those of you posting links to ASR I hope you aren't drinking the kool-aid, remember there is no microphone or measurement as sensitive as two ears and a brain:

 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
For those of you posting links to ASR I hope you aren't drinking the kool-aid, remember there is no microphone or measurement as sensitive as two ears and a brain:

Also none as easily phooled…
Do you really think your ears and psyche are as consistent as a microphone?
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
For those of you posting links to ASR I hope you aren't drinking the kool-aid, remember there is no microphone or measurement as sensitive as two ears and a brain:

Remember there isn't a measurement you can hear beyond. Talk about drinking the kool-aid, you've got the tap wide open with your silly approach to cable/wire. SBAF is not a reliable site, sorry.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
For those of you posting links to ASR I hope you aren't drinking the kool-aid, remember there is no microphone or measurement as sensitive as two ears and a brain:

You are not a good fit for this forum, and you are going to waste a lot of a time. This is a science/engineering based forum, that believes in objective data soundly applied.
We want to steer new members starting out in logical and sensible directions. We really don't want to have to spend time decontaminating them from your nonsense.
We periodically get subjectivists like you barging on here with this time and money wasting advice. It is not what we are about.

Please find a subjectivist forum to spout your bilge.
 
I

Itsmerandy

Audiophyte
It’s interesting that people still think all avrs sound the same. Ongoing debate, my arcam avr20, denon 4700, integra drx7.1, onkyo rz50, and pioneer elite 502 all sound different. Some are more center channel focused, some are more lively in the surround channels, some are very full sounding with adding no powered subs. This is all before running any room eq.

If you don’t like the marantz 8012 don’t waste your time with it. Doesn’t mean it’s bad, just not your thing. Too often people don’t like something and their first reaction is it’s bad or terrible. Nah, just not your preference. Music I love arcam, just puts a smile on my face. I like my other receivers as well for where I use them. I recently wanted to try Yamaha again and bought the rxa8. Tried really hard to get it to sound right. Running rew, ypao, and dirac with mini dsp. Sounded decent with movies but music was so sharp and edgy. Arcam sounded better with dirac off than rxa8. Yamaha might be a better match with different speakers or in a different room.

I’d sell the 8012 and get something that makes you happy. Good luck to you
I totally agree, Even amps have different sound, I would think most can tell a difference between the sound of a tube amp compared to solid state. To me early Marantz kinda had more of a tube like sound and thats what I liked with my SR7010. Unfortunately I think the difference is D&M Holdings/Philips designed the SR7010 and United Sound designed and built the SR8012 and used interchangeable parts with the Denon 6400 so its just it is what it is. They chose to save cost in manufacturing which you can't blame them for but its a mixed breed now.
 
witchdoctor

witchdoctor

Full Audioholic
You can't get "science" from a chat room, a website, even a book. You get INFORMATION from those sources, what you do with it is up to you. I prefer to TEST in my LAB, or my various sound systems. If you prefer to read someone's post and follow it blindly, go for it. I prefer to test things out myself and encourage newcomers to do the same.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I totally agree, Even amps have different sound, I would think most can tell a difference between the sound of a tube amp compared to solid state. To me early Marantz kinda had more of a tube like sound and thats what I liked with my SR7010. Unfortunately I think the difference is D&M Holdings/Philips designed the SR7010 and United Sound designed and built the SR8012 and used interchangeable parts with the Denon 6400 so its just it is what it is. They chose to save cost in manufacturing which you can't blame them for but its a mixed breed now.
I had a Marantz 2270, not true old school Marantz, but closer. Wasn't that good. Had issues. It's Sound United, not United Sound, and likely much of the design team transfered thru the last few sales of the the company, but that often has it's own attrition as a result. The financial guys aren't likely doing the designing in any case.

As to a tube vs ss amp, sure, could be differences....personally have no use for tubes, particularly with a multich setup, where it just gets silly for anything remotely capable. I have several different model/brand avrs and just don't see a basic difference outside of dsp/req differences that can enable different sounds.....otherwise meh. Goes for my power amps, too....meh. If you need to listen to amps I think you're spending far too much time on gear than just enjoying the music....the ss amp will not make much difference at all outside of basic impedance/power capabilities for the most part. Long solved issue.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
I totally agree, Even amps have different sound, I would think most can tell a difference between the sound of a tube amp compared to solid state. To me early Marantz kinda had more of a tube like sound and thats what I liked with my SR7010. Unfortunately I think the difference is D&M Holdings/Philips designed the SR7010 and United Sound designed and built the SR8012 and used interchangeable parts with the Denon 6400 so its just it is what it is. They chose to save cost in manufacturing which you can't blame them for but its a mixed breed now.
Well designed solid state amps don't have different sound if they are driven within their designed limits. Period! Don't listen to people giving their opinions based on their listening experience. As an example, most youtube reviews are bullshit because their conclusion is not based on scientific testing.
 
O

OHMisback

Audioholic
places like AH and ASR really don’t cater to that crowd
I don't consider the two remotely the same. This site is growing. I've heard a lot of very VERY nice systems.
I use to work remotely everywhere there was foundational drilling. Aspen was a wonderful place 10 years ago. I'm sure it still is.
I couldn't find an AVR. I wasn't looking that hard but they just weren't in their stereo stores. I looked for two week
while on a job, they ALL laughed at stock anything, it seemed. There wasn't a STOCK Power CABLE in the three stores I visited.
I laughed all the way in and all the way out, BUT it did get me thinking.

I've NEVER used a stock power CABLE. I always made my own. So I bought some 10 gauge stock copper cables from Mac
for MC601. NO DIFFERENCE. Most Mac power amps like a great big copper cable with copper terminal ends. Pretty simple.

I change brands of amps. Why? I really liked the fact I could tailor the sound of the amp and reduce the number of valves being
used, by removing them and re-bias the remaining valves. Cary was new to me, but the first thing I learned from the guy that
designed my amps Dennis Had, was to select very good power cables and speaker cables. "Not all cables are created equal"

The reason for the Kimble CABLE upgrades inside the preamps and tube power amps. Cary replaced the umbilical from the power supply
chassis to the valve chassis, on BOTH SLP-05 and the 98 series. It's NOT a sideways move at ALL. Caps, resistors and cables
changed their pre and power amps. You would have to have a serious hearing issue to NOT hear the difference.

No I don't believe in 250.00 fuses.. BUT That stupid circuit is a problem when you heat the element up in a stick fuse.
THEY MOVE!! more like the "Twist" (the dance) and the cha cha cha. IT MOVES in the middle, just like ol what's her name!

Do cables make a difference? On MY Mcintosh, Pass, not so much. On Cary valve gear you better pay attention. I don't think, Had, James B,
or Pass were EEs were they? They may have well been but they sure didn't let a piece of gear pass until it passes the last test. LISTENING.

The next question is do you believe the guy that built the equipment or the guy that test other peoples equipment? Me I don't trust
anybody, I'm a retired mechanic, they all make claims and if not I still verify whoever it is. Most people have an agenda.
Dennis Had was already retired from Cary, what did he have to gain. James B. of SST cold welded his PC in place on Ampzilla units.
SO it boils down to My ears, my choice. Power CABLES make a difference in certain equipment and saying
it doesn't, DOESN'T make it so. It's as simple as that.

I was using a Denon 6700 for the last month just to see if I could make it work on my 3.X channel system. It was flawless.
I used the same PC that I use on my Carys. I suppose I could have tried a 2.00 special. BUT I could not get past 30 minutes of
listening. 2 weeks I tried. I swap back to the MX121/SLP-05/V12r pure Heaven! I listened for 4 straight hours.

I don't know if a power cable makes a difference, but what's plugged into it sure does. :cool: Some people have picky ears. The more YOU
refined your taste, is usually as a result of learning what you like, NOT someone telling you that you can or cannot hear a difference.

Yoko Ono comes to mind, they recorded her and the recordings still exist. What is that telling you. Power Cables won't cure
everything will they? LOL. Yoko Ono looks and sounds just like Shakira. That's funny right.
All power cables and cables in general are the same. That's even funnier.

I like the statement "Lets send it to so and so and have it tested" That means it won't burn down the house. NOTHING to do with the
quality of the cable or its sonic signature IF it has one you can identify with a given piece of equipment.

There is more than one flavor of ice cream. Though MY Vanilla makes it the best.
NOT your vanilla. MY Vanilla. "It's like talking to a Klingon", (Grand Nagus Zek DS9)
Where is the profit?

Just the Facts Ma'am
 
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I

Itsmerandy

Audiophyte
I had a Marantz 2270, not true old school Marantz, but closer. Wasn't that good. Had issues. It's Sound United, not United Sound, and likely much of the design team transfered thru the last few sales of the the company, but that often has it's own attrition as a result. The financial guys aren't likely doing the designing in any case.

As to a tube vs ss amp, sure, could be differences....personally have no use for tubes, particularly with a multich setup, where it just gets silly for anything remotely capable. I have several different model/brand avrs and just don't see a basic difference outside of dsp/req differences that can enable different sounds.....otherwise meh. Goes for my power amps, too....meh. If you need to listen to amps I think you're spending far too much time on gear than just enjoying the music....the ss amp will not make much difference at all outside of basic impedance/power capabilities for the most part. Long solved issue.
Wow, Yes, I realized just as I hit the post button I had reversed the name, I will be the first to admit I'm not perfect. I really didn't get on here to hurt peoples feelings about what brand of equipment they have or like. I was just looking to see what other people thought that owned or have listened to the SR8012. Apparently I'm wrong and there are no audible sound differences in equipment so I will move on and let you go off on the poor Witchdoctor some more.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Wow, Yes, I realized just as I hit the post button I had reversed the name, I will be the first to admit I'm not perfect. I really didn't get on here to hurt peoples feelings about what brand of equipment they have or like. I was just looking to see what other people thought that owned or have listened to the SR8012. Apparently I'm wrong and there are no audible sound differences in equipment so I will move on and let you go off on the poor Witchdoctor some more.
Not saying that's not the way you experienced it particularly, but why you experienced it that way that's more important. You can buy witchy's silly cables if you want, tho....
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I totally agree, Even amps have different sound, I would think most can tell a difference between the sound of a tube amp compared to solid state. To me early Marantz kinda had more of a tube like sound and thats what I liked with my SR7010. Unfortunately I think the difference is D&M Holdings/Philips designed the SR7010 and United Sound designed and built the SR8012 and used interchangeable parts with the Denon 6400 so its just it is what it is. They chose to save cost in manufacturing which you can't blame them for but its a mixed breed now.
I originally asked you to provide details of your system. So far you have not obliged. The reason is that many speakers offer a complex load to the amp. The measurements of your SR7010 show it to be better adapted to difficult lower impedance loads than your SR8012. These newer receivers have far too many amps in one box. The manufacturers need to allow for amps to be switched off, not just input disconnection as some do now. So it may be you have speakers that demand external amplification. Personally I don't use receivers, and only use pre/pros for very good reasons.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I originally asked you to provide details of your system. So far you have not obliged. The reason is that many speakers offer a complex load to the amp. The measurements of your SR7010 show it to be better adapted to difficult lower impedance loads than your SR8012. These newer receivers have far too many amps in one box. The manufacturers need to allow for amps to be switched off, not just input disconnection as some do now. So it may be you have speakers that demand external amplification. Personally I don't use receivers, and only use pre/pros for very good reasons.
The amp section in the 8012 is better than the 7010. It has a bigger power supply and more output, including when driving 4 ohms. I run an 8015 (same amp and PS of 8012) with all 4 ohm speakers in a 9CH system without issues. It does run hot though and ventilation is vital. As for sound, I suspect there are set up issues but its all speculative based on what I see here.
 
Timforhifi

Timforhifi

Full Audioholic
8012 without a doubt has a better amp section.

If you really dislike the 8012 I’ll buy it. Message me and I’ll test it out for all of us. See if it’s defective or or a setup issue.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
This I don’t disagree with… though I cannot help but wonder why two AVRs from the same manufacturer, with production only separated by 2 years would make such a difference.
I could maybe see it if we were talking a 7-10 year old sr50xx switching to a new sr80xx or some such.

Can anybody speak to whether some significant retooling of components or build occurred at this time been the 7010 and 8012? @gene or perhaps @PENG ?

thanks!
It is hard to disagree with Timforhifi's subjective opinion, but subjective is just subjective, the facts are obviously different, for example:

- People from the subjective camp (meaning those who don't put much faith in specs and measurements) often make comments such as Tim's "that people still think all avrs sound the same... ". The fact is, some people may in fact believe that they all sound the same without qualifications, but the vast majority of comments from the objective camp would simply say something like "well designed (or something like that..) AVRs would sound the same in direct/pure direct mode when no RC or any dsp are used and without exceeding its output limits etc.....". That is, they typically wouldn't make a blanket statement, but rather, include some qualifications/caveats.

- It has been proven time and again, that opinions formed in sighted comparison listening tests are not reliable and that participant's opinion often changed, even dramatically, when done in double blind protocols. Examples were cited by various experts including Dr. Toole and Dr. Sean Olive.

Regarding retooling, if you meant change in circuitry and components/parts, the major change between the 7010 and 7011 is the volume control IC. The 7010 already has the DAC IC upgrade, from the PCM1690 to the AK4458, but it's volume control IC (that is basically what one may call, the preamp) was still a LSI (large scale integrated) IC that does lots of things). Starting from the 7011, Denon+Marantz has finally upgraded it to a MSI (medium scale integrated) IC that has much fewer parts in it, and is designed to do the job as a preamp/volume control device.



There appeared to be no HDAM upgrade since the SR7009 through SR8012, but as reported by Gene, it was finally upgraded for the SR8015.

For those interested in AVR build quality, HTHF's Dr. Rich (who is a PhD in EE) has written a 5 part series:
It would be good idea to start with Part 1:
AVR - Audio Video Receiver - Build Quality: Part I - HomeTheaterHifi.com

I quoted the following before, but for the sake of countering some subjective opinions about AVRs sounding different (I am sure they do, seriously, but it depends..), I would like to quote what he said again in the conclusions of Part 1:

A key takeaway: circuit quality in the direct mode (stereo or 7.1) is almost always invariant to AVR prices in the range of $400 to $2,000. As examples, the $250 Yamaha RX-V367 and Marantz AV8801 ($3000) use the same Renesas LSI chip (R2A15220FP). With the LSI analog chip in these products, the sound of the direct mode is relatively constant, although a more robust power supplies, addition a quality output buffer and enhanced DC blocking capacitor quality can make small differences.
Note that he qualified his remarks with "direct", and "almost", so one should not take it as a general statement as such but to take it with a grain of salt.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I think it's a setup issue 99% of the time. Sometimes "small" things (like setup) make the biggest difference (sounds like a fortune cookie :D).

It seems all roads lead to amps/ pre-amps and their sound signatures (or lack of).

Person #1: I believe all amps sound differently. :D
Person #2: Let's agree to disagree - I don't believe all amps have different sound signatures of their own. :D

Person #1: You think all amps sound the same? :mad:
Person #2: Yeah, but it's no big deal. We just do what sounds best for us. ;)
 

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