Marantz AV 10 15.4CH AV Processor Bench Test Results!

D

dlaloum

Full Audioholic
Back to semi-reality. Let's talk about, vaporware. :) As in - when are we getting Dirac Live Bass Control (DLBC)? Firmware U32, where are you?
Nah that's "cloudware" - you can see it on the Horizon....

I want to know when ART is coming.... now THAT, is vaporware
 
M

multisport4me

Junior Audioholic
Nah that's "cloudware" - you can see it on the Horizon....

I want to know when ART is coming.... now THAT, is vaporware
I think we'll hear more about ART once they get DLBC out and we're heading into CES in Jan. No inside information here - just seems the timing aligns with an announcement about ART plans and possibly it being shown/heard at CES as proof it is coming. Unless this whole hold up of DLBC and debacle with Denon websites announcing it too early means they decided to bundle both up and release them both sooner?!?! ....one can hope. :)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Wrong. 7.1CH can be used for 2.0 of course, just using L and R inputs. I wrote Marantz to ask how could I bypass internal DAC now that they have removed the 7.1CH analog inputs and I have to use the normal RCA input. And you can see the reply: IT CANNOT BE BYPASSED

Sorry that you feel mislead. It's mentioned in previous messaging that the DSP and all processing is bypassed, but not the internal DAC. Again, apologies if that caused confusion.
I am 99% sure I am not wrong, neither would @gene be wrong. We are both EE (don't have to be, but it often might help in terms of not taking manufacturer's first line customer support for granted, they are human, so can make honest mistakes, especially if the question somehow confused or biased them;)).

Amir of ASR, also an EE, has been measuring many Denon and Marantz AVRs/AVPs and he too, confirmed by his measurements on previous models before the AV10, that signal via the analog inputs will get routed to the ADC, DSP, DAC signal path if you don't use direct/pure direct mode. If you do use direct and pure direct mode, then the analog input signal will bypass the ADC/DSP/DAC block and go straight to the Volume control.

I think people get confused by the old myth, originated from the time when all Denon, Marantz upper mid range AVRs have the so called multichannel (mostly 7.1, some 5.1) analog inputs, that naturally will bypass the ADC/DSP/DAC, because the main purpose of those multichannel analog inputs are there so that audiophiles who believe their SACD, DVD, BDP by Sony, Oppo, and higher end units have superior DSP/DACs so they want to use the players own DAC instead of the lower grade ones in the AVRs and AVPs.

Unfortunately, just because those AVRs/AVPs have such 7.1 analog inputs that bypass the internal DACs, some smart people were misled to think if you use the other 2 channel analog inputs, it would mean the internal DAC will not be bypassed. This is of course untrue, or only true to certain AVRs (can't think of any example off hand). Think about it, why would a $7,500 AV10 not providing a few low cost IC switches to bypass the internal ADC/DSP and DAC, when they did it for even the mid range $999 AVR-X3400H, SR5013 kind of AVRs? That would make no sense right? Now if the AV10 actually upgraded the ADC and use high fs such as 384 kHz, then yes, they may think that there is no point to bypass analog input signals, in terms of potential sound quality degradation due to the unnecessary conversion. Reality is, D+M has been using the AK5358 ADC and fs used was 96 kHz as Gene also mentioned, so if they had continued that same practice, then based on Gene's measurements, there is no way the analog input signal get double converted, theoretically impossible as Gene already explained.

The reason why I am 99% sure but not 100% is, there is a slim outside chance that D+M up their game on the ADC. As far as I know, Anthem did upgraded their ADC on their AVPs, to ESS Sabre's flagship model, but they still keep the analog input signal bypassable in the AVM70 and the $7,500 AVM90. I think they do that to avoid upsetting potential customers like you, who believe their external DACs would offer superior sound to the already top notched ones in the likes of Marantz, Anthem, and Arcam's flagship AVPs.

So again, Marantz would have been really silly to force their fans to double convert!!

Back to Marantz in general, I can assure you that it has been true that the analog signals does bypass the internal ADC/DSP/DAC in direct/pure direct mode for years. There is no reason for the AV10 and A1H to deviate from such good practice, that not only keep cost low, but also keep their fans happy.

Just an example, below is one response from Marantz, about the AV7705, and the question got asked because of the same confusion originated from forums such as AVSforum when some people started the misconception about the difference between the 2 channel input and multichannel input regardless the bypass/or not of the internal DAC, when there was none in that sense.

If you read the thread on this same topic on AVSF, and you obvious participate, there are posts quoted the response from that one Marantz rep, but on several posts, when questioned further, it appeared that the customer support rep wasn't really sure, and supposedly promised to consult their supervisor(s), though also apparently never got back to the enquirer.

While waiting for update/follow up from Marantz take a look of the following, also from Marantz customer support, but it was for the older model, I am posting it only for info, knowing full well that it does not mean the answer should be the same for the AV10. The info is still relevant, because the same bunch of people also spread the same myth back then, on the previous D+M models.

Staff Account NJ Customer Support via Email02/05/2020 02:58 PM
Hello,

Looking at the Analog Audio Block in the 7705's service manual it appears that an analog input signal while in Direct or Pure Direct mode does bypass the DSP and there's no ADC / DAC at that point. The signal is sent to 2 independent switches, then to the Volume IC and finally to the HDAM module before it goes to the pre-out section.
One can also refer to the service manuals:

A typical block diagrams look like the one for the AV8805, I think it is okay to post because it was publictly available for download shortly after the AV8805 was launched, and I believe others have posted in on the internet already.

Below is the one that shows the analog input path:

Since it is just a block diagram that shows the signal flow for different paths, one does not need to be an EE to understand it, but if there are questions, please just ask.

Be clear, that's for the AV8805, the AV10 will be different but it is hard to imagine the signal flow would differ by much, and I seem to recall seeing something similar, from either Marantz own marketing info, or in the Masimo video. If I can find it, I will post it here so you can see it for yourself.

One thing I would like to add is, while those Marantz reps are helpful, if the answers are not in the owner's manual, or their own internal manuals, they would not always know the correct answer, and I personally know that they had given incorrect answers before. So when there is anything uncertain about a slightly more complicated topic like this, it would help to insist they consult there level two support. I have done that sort of things a couple times in the past and it worked, but other times, they never got back to me.

1701443675669.png
 
Last edited:
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
now that they have removed the 7.1CH inputs, which were the only inputs that were not digitized in the former series.
That fact really is irrelevant. Just because the 7.1 ch analog input provides the bypass, does not mean the stereo analog inputs do not. I am very familiar with the myth that only the 7.1 analog inputs can do the bypass, had a debate with member richb on that a few years back, he didn't believe me, so I also contacted Denon, and Marantz and I have bought the service manual of a Marantz AVR, and got one for the Denon from an ASR members, both show the same block diagram, that show how the bypass is done on the stereo analog inputs. The AV10 will most likely (99%, as I said on the other post) have the same bypass path, I will look for proof.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Amir just published his measurement results on the AV10, the results, as usual, basically mirror Gene's:

(2) Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

This is one case of how DAC implementation could affect the measured performance of the DAC. The difference is not significant, but the Marantz lower class ES9018K2M (quite a bit cheaper) yielded better results than the Anthem AV90 that uses the top ESS DAC, namely the very expensive ES9038Pro. Again, both are great, a couple dB difference in SINAD, DNR are academic.
 
N

Nondemo01

Junior Audioholic
Amir just published his measurement results on the AV10, the results, as usual, basically mirror Gene's:

(2) Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

This is one case of how DAC implementation could affect the measured performance of the DAC. The difference is not significant, but the Marantz lower class ES9018K2M (quite a bit cheaper) yielded better results than the Anthem AV90 that uses the top ESS DAC, namely the very expensive ES9038Pro. Again, both are great, a couple dB difference in SINAD, DNR are academic.
Yup. And in typical ASR fashion, there are already a bunch of comments on "value" to price. I guess people REALLY THINK manufacturers like Marantz have a 90% markup on their products. I personally think the AV-10 is a HUGE VALUE given what it does and offers compared to Anthem and the likes of Trinnov and Storm. But that's just me.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Amir just published his measurement results on the AV10, the results, as usual, basically mirror Gene's:

(2) Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

This is one case of how DAC implementation could affect the measured performance of the DAC. The difference is not significant, but the Marantz lower class ES9018K2M (quite a bit cheaper) yielded better results than the Anthem AV90 that uses the top ESS DAC, namely the very expensive ES9038Pro. Again, both are great, a couple dB difference in SINAD, DNR are academic.
Did ASR measure the AVM90?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Correct, ASR measured only the AVM 70 that Anthem sent to Amir.

It was in the Audioholics Youtube channel that showed some AVM 90 measurements. I wasn't sure if it was measured by Gene, or it was by Anthem but in collaboration with Audioholics. We can ask @Theo ni

Anthem AVM 90 8K: Best Measuring & Sounding Processor? - YouTube

It starts at around 1:42
Oh, I see.

AVM90 SINAD = 102dB, THD+N = 0.0007% (Source ?)
AV-10 SINAD = 107dB, THD+N = 0.0004% (AH, ASR)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Oh, I see.

AVM90 SINAD = 102dB, THD+N = 0.0007% (Source ?)
AV-10 SINAD = 107dB, THD+N = 0.0004% (AH, ASR)
The AVM 90 did a little better in IMD, but a few dB difference means nothing when both have excellent results, and since we are comparing results from two different labs, such minor differences could simply be due to different environment, instrument accuracy, calibrations etc., and are really within typical margin of error too.


1701463024502.png


1701463070826.png
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I do not have any “assumption”. I was planning to upgrade from marantz sr7013 to AV10 and I contacted Marantz to know if it was still possible to have 100% analog path, now that they have removed the 7.1CH inputs, which were the only inputs that were not digitized in the former series.

I know it is painful to pay $7000 like you to find this, I am sorry for you. That’s why I asked Marantz before

if they provide a different answer, unbiased from commercial interests, I will happily upgrade. But they have to prove how the new series avoid digitizing the signal. I do not care if the DAC inside is transparent, it still invalidates the use of an external DAC
It took me some time, but as promised, I managed to find some signal block diagrams for you:

The first one shows the Denon's, but the signal flow should be the same, they always were for the last 5 to 7 years so there is little chance Marantz would take a different approach.

Regardless, the second one is for the Marantz Cinema 50, slightly different form, but again these are just block diagram, that are drawn to make it easy for non technically oriented people to understand. The Denon one is not different, it simply shows a little more details, and it does not have the HDAMs.

The point is, you can clearly see the two separate paths, with an electronic IC, that is a multiplexor switch, aka by D+M as the "Selector". The selector is there so that the signals can be routed in different directions. In this case, in direct or pure direct mode, the analog signal will be routed directly to the volume control IC. You can see that in both block diagrams.

If @Tankini bought his Marantz already, and he wants to use his own external DAC for 2 channel stereo, he has no worry and we don't need to feel sorry for him. In anything, I feel sorry for potentially quite a few Marantz lovers who may have been worrying about something for no reasons.

Marantz, and Denon knows full well not to re-digitize analog signal, only to re-digitize it again, if the users don't plan on using DSP functionality such as Audyssey or Dirac Live room correction.

Both diagrams are from the Masimo videos presented by D+M's Mr. Join Oliver Kriete, Product Manager Europe and the global Sound United Training team.

New flagship Marantz AV Separates AV 10 and AMP 10 introduction - YouTube

1701472189576.png


1701472211343.png
 
G

guyp2k

Audiophyte
It took me some time, but as promised, I managed to find some signal block diagrams for you:

The first one shows the Denon's, but the signal flow should be the same, they always were for the last 5 to 7 years so there is little chance Marantz would take a different approach.

Regardless, the second one is for the Marantz Cinema 50, slightly different form, but again these are just block diagram, that are drawn to make it easy for non technically oriented people to understand. The Denon one is not different, it simply shows a little more details, and it does not have the HDAMs.

The point is, you can clearly see the two separate paths, with an electronic IC, that is a multiplexor switch, aka by D+M as the "Selector". The selector is there so that the signals can be routed in different directions. In this case, in direct or pure direct mode, the analog signal will be routed directly to the volume control IC. You can see that in both block diagrams.

If @Tankini bought his Marantz already, and he wants to use his own external DAC for 2 channel stereo, he has no worry and we don't need to feel sorry for him. In anything, I feel sorry for potentially quite a few Marantz lovers who may have been worrying about something for no reasons.

Marantz, and Denon knows full well not to re-digitize analog signal, only to re-digitize it again, if the users don't plan on using DSP functionality such as Audyssey or Dirac Live room correction.

Both diagrams are from the Masimo videos presented by D+M's Mr. Join Oliver Kriete, Product Manager Europe and the global Sound United Training team.

New flagship Marantz AV Separates AV 10 and AMP 10 introduction - YouTube

View attachment 64475

View attachment 64476
PENG thanks for all explanations, answers most of my questions, but in the following scenario would this apply as well:

External DAC --> XLR (Analog in).
AUX1 --> Analog --> XLR
Music --> Pure Direct.
Subwoofer --> LFE
Speaker --> Small
2-Channel setup below:

1701477714090.png


Or would I have to omit the .1/sub and select Speakers --> Large?
 
D

dlaloum

Full Audioholic
Yup. And in typical ASR fashion, there are already a bunch of comments on "value" to price. I guess people REALLY THINK manufacturers like Marantz have a 90% markup on their products. I personally think the AV-10 is a HUGE VALUE given what it does and offers compared to Anthem and the likes of Trinnov and Storm. But that's just me.
At the AV10 end of the market, they can charge what they want, and the competition is Storm and Trinnov... the issues are mostly at the mid market environment, where D&M upped margins by around 30% when they released the current range .... after the Masimo takeover, and shareholders complaining that the D&M margins were below their (medical marketplace driven) expectations.

Subsequent drop in price at "street prices" seem to indicate that reality kicked in on the mass/mid market pricing!

Whether the same will happen at the flagship end, is yet to be seen.... but I doubt it!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yup. And in typical ASR fashion, there are already a bunch of comments on "value" to price. I guess people REALLY THINK manufacturers like Marantz have a 90% markup on their products. I personally think the AV-10 is a HUGE VALUE given what it does and offers compared to Anthem and the likes of Trinnov and Storm. But that's just me.
I'd like to see how they calculate that 90%. I think they may mean by the time they can buy it from a local b&m dealer, there may be a significant markup from the actual ex-factory price (if that's even fairly calculated) to account for the middle men/distributors.....but 90% is probably withdrawn from a certain human crevice?
 
D

Deckard71

Junior Audioholic
Summary: the DAC in the AV10 is good and has very good measurements. However, the lack of analog bypass makes no possible to use any external DAC, as it will get digitized
 
D

dlaloum

Full Audioholic
Summary: the DAC in the AV10 is good and has very good measurements. However, the lack of analog bypass makes no possible to use any external DAC, as it will get digitized
The greatest improvement that technology has brought to audio in the last 20 years, has been Room and Speaker EQ....

Using that EQ, requires processing the signal through the devices DSP - which makes the whole bypass circuit redundant.

The only reason I use bypass on occasion, is to have a known level set, when comparing components (AVR's, amps, preamps) - so I can tell whether there is any obvious difference in sound between two components - in pure bypass there should not be, unless one or both are flawed.

With DSP activated, that becomes much much more complicated, as the impact of RoomEQ will completely dominate most other aspects of performance.

I remain sceptical that the AV10 lacks an analogue bypass - at least for Stereo ... far more likely that the response was provided by a tech support person, who does not understand the component "in depth".
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
PENG thanks for all explanations, answers most of my questions, but in the following scenario would this apply as well:

External DAC --> XLR (Analog in).
AUX1 --> Analog --> XLR
Music --> Pure Direct.
Subwoofer --> LFE
Speaker --> Small
2-Channel setup below:

View attachment 64477

Or would I have to omit the .1/sub and select Speakers --> Large?
If I remember right, that question has been asked before on various forums, but I do not recall any creditable answers given by anyone, except Amir of ASR might have answered it indirectly from his comments in a review as follow.

He's the only one I know who confirmed (again, just by his measurements) that even in stereo mode, as long as you don't use any DSP that obviously include room correction or even just some sort of bass management, the analog signal would get digitized at 96 kHz sampling rate (note that Gene also mentioned the 96 kHz sampling too in his AV10 review). Previous, we all thought if stereo mode is used, the signal would always get digitized regardless.

Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

1701516612717.png
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top