Making the best of a bad room

[Yoss15]

I'm working on converting the basement to a family and movie room. The small 5.1 set up I had in our old house is proving less than satisfying in a larger and even more awkward space. I'd like to go to a 5.X.4 Atmos set up.

My new room is a bit under 3,000 cubic feet. In addition to being a somewhat awkward shape, I have a fireplace, ductwork and support pole that limit placement of the TV, speakers, and furniture. It's a basement with 7.5 foot ceilings, and the problematic ductwork reduces that to 6.5 feet above where I plan to put the couch. The light gray box overlaying the diagram indicates the ductwork. I'm thinking I'll probably have to space the atmos height speakers farther apart but for awhile I was kicking around the idea of mounting them on the sides of the ductwork, flush with the bottom edge.

Ok, finally to my main question about my front left, right and center speakers. To fill this space, do you think I'd be better served with large bookshelf speakers or towers? It would be about 70/30 movies and music. I'd prefer to keep it in the neighborhood of $1,000 for all 3. (Obviously I'll need subwoofer(s) regardless as I'm certain my old Dayton Sub-1000 won't be up to the task.)

I was considering the Polk Signature series https://www.polkaudio.com/collections/home-audio/signature-series.

Towers:
Polk S60, S55, or S50
and the S30 for a center

Bookshelves:
Polk S20
and the S30 for the center

I was also thinking of getting 3 of these RBH R-515 LCR speakers https://rbhsound.com/r515.php

My main hesitation at going with bookshelf speakers is based on my experience setting up my old Genesis 1+ speakers for 2-channel listening. (They're very similar to the old EPI 100s, 2-way, 8 inch woofer, good down to around 40 Hz.) They sounded so nice at my old place and now they just seem kind of lost. Probably room treatments would help, but would a tower like the S60 help me get a fuller sound?

 

[ryanosaur]

Sorry, don't have a lot of time for an in depth answer right now, but hopefully some friends will chime in too...

One thing that struck me: Don't attach speakers to the ducting... it will create a lot of problems acoustically: ducts tend to reverberate, and I think it will be a bad option for you.

In terms of Tower or Standmount speakers: I personally always prefer a good 3-way tower... but as you are limited by budget, I think Standmounts are appropriate. You should consider multiple subs, though... 2 Hsu VTF2s would be a great way to improve bass response and prop up smaller speakers. They might be the value leader in great subs right now, and they are known to have a good mid-bass presence as well. Anything smaller is going to leave you with that empty feeling you describe.

More later...

Cheers!

 

[GrimSurfer]

Acoustic ceiling tile and a suspended ceiling can be your friend acoustically. It also helps to have an accessible ceiling for wires, cables, etc.

Cover ductwork with mass loaded wrap. Add Rockwool sound insulation between the ceiling joists.

If you haven't framed the space yet, use Rockwool sound insulation between the studs.

Suspend speakers from ceiling joists or walls. If you can't hang from it, don't hang a speaker from it!

Use heavy, double backed curtains along that entire that back wall/ window -- that end of the room could be a problem with bass.

Use carpet with thick underlay or a large area rug between the TV and seating position.

 

[Yoss15]

I appreciate the input, guys. Thanks!

@ryanosaur
I hadn't considered the reverberation of the ductwork, although it's all framed and sheetrocked in so it wouldn't be directly on the ducts. I suppose I'll want more room front to back than the duct width anyway and just have to live with the ductwork reflecting some of the overhead sound.

I've read a lot of good things about the HSU subs. Bigger, better subs will happen eventually. I still have an entire kitchen to gut and renovate and the wood floors upstairs to refinish so HT upgrades may be incremental.

@GrimSurfer
The basement was already finished out with ugly old paneling over sheetrock when we moved in. I'm just removing the paneling and patching up the sheetrock as needed. It just has standard fiberglass bats in the walls and between ceiling joists. I will be cutting into the ceiling to add recessed can lights and a few access holes for drilling through joists to run the necessary power and speaker wires.

Yeah, definitely a good area rug up front. I've been considering putting an absorption panel on the ceiling between the front speakers and the seating. That probably won't thrill the wife, but I think I can make it look presentable.


Any thoughts on whether it would be a noticeable difference between towers crossed over to subs at 60 Hz vs bookshelves or those speakers from RBH crossed over at 80 Hz? Or if there are other speakers I should be considering instead?

I read a lot, but my actual hands on experience with various equipment is limited.

 

[ryanosaur]

Be careful treating a room without gear to measure with... to a certain extent, you don’t want to kill all reflections. Live rooms, and dead, both sound bad.
I agree with Grim... especially the rug with thick mat between speakers and LP.
Also, even though I just discouraged over treatment... diffraction can be your friend. Don’t rely strictly on dampening.

 

[Sef_Makaro]

Be careful treating a room without gear to measure with... to a certain extent, you don’t want to kill all reflections. Live rooms, and dead, both sound bad.
I agree with Grim... especially the rug with thick mat between speakers and LP.
Also, even though I just discouraged over treatment... diffraction can be your friend. Don’t rely strictly on dampening.

This is something I’d like to learn more about, measuring the room. I have a decent SPL meter for level matching that came with some software but I haven’t tried it yet.

Based on some rule of thumb type info I found along the way I’ve put a moderated heavy rug under the couch on the wood floors and built some “broadband absorbers”. I saw on my SR7008 that audyssey was trying to eq out a bunch at around 100hz, after I built and installed the absorbers that seemed to flatten out a bit. I’m not sure how to take it to the next level.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Be careful treating a room without gear to measure with... to a certain extent, you don’t want to kill all reflections. Live rooms, and dead, both sound bad.
I agree with Grim... especially the rug with thick mat between speakers and LP.
Also, even though I just discouraged over treatment... diffraction can be your friend. Don’t rely strictly on dampening.

That's generally true for middle and high frequencies, but anything under sheet rock will only reduce bass nodes (which is never, ever bad). It won't have much of an affect on higher frequencies, which sheet rock reflects quite readily.

The curtains on the back wall won't do anything for bass. But they will absorb Middle and higher frequencies, which you don't want reflecting back from that distance because they would be grossly delayed.

 

[ryanosaur]

This is something I’d like to learn more about, measuring the room. I have a decent SPL meter for level matching that came with some software but I haven’t tried it yet.

REW (Room EQ Wizard) and a calibrated usb mic like what comes from miniDSP.
A lot of info is out there to get you started, but a teaser was dropped about an possible upcoming AH article on REW, too.
REW is free I think, their mic is like 85?, I think.
I’m gonna jump on that after my 3s come in. Maybe still a month or so out.

 

[GrimSurfer]

I appreciate the input, guys. Thanks!

@ryanosaur
I hadn't considered the reverberation of the ductwork, although it's all framed and sheetrocked in so it wouldn't be directly on the ducts. I suppose I'll want more room front to back than the duct width anyway and just have to live with the ductwork reflecting some of the overhead sound.

I've read a lot of good things about the HSU subs. Bigger, better subs will happen eventually. I still have an entire kitchen to gut and renovate and the wood floors upstairs to refinish so HT upgrades may be incremental.

@GrimSurfer
The basement was already finished out with ugly old paneling over sheetrock when we moved in. I'm just removing the paneling and patching up the sheetrock as needed. It just has standard fiberglass bats in the walls and between ceiling joists. I will be cutting into the ceiling to add recessed can lights and a few access holes for drilling through joists to run the necessary power and speaker wires.

Yeah, definitely a good area rug up front. I've been considering putting an absorption panel on the ceiling between the front speakers and the seating. That probably won't thrill the wife, but I think I can make it look presentable.


Any thoughts on whether it would be a noticeable difference between towers crossed over to subs at 60 Hz vs bookshelves or those speakers from RBH crossed over at 80 Hz? Or if there are other speakers I should be considering instead?

I read a lot, but my actual hands on experience with various equipment is limited.

Untamed duct work can be a killer because it can transmit sound to/from your space. It does a lot of this by reverberation, which is where mass loaded wraps comes into play.

On your speaker dilemma, I offer the following:

1. Speaker height. Best to get the speakers at ear level (when seated) -- especially the tweeters because they are so directional. This doesn't apply to height effect speakers in an ATMOS rig though...

2. Backwave. All speakers have a backwave. Many things influence this such as back firing ports, cabinet design, thickness etc. Frequency plays a big role because of the difficulty bracing a cabinet not to reverberate at lower frequencies. Often, the low frequencies are much higher in spl because of the energy needed to drive them and be audible (see Fletcher-Munson curve of equal loudness). So it's going to be a easier to reduce backwave reflections on a speaker with a roll off at 80 Hz than it will be at 60 Hz or below. Maybe not a massive amount but it's important to gain percentages where possible...

3. Subs. A tower will add more to bass than a bookshelf because the former has less roll off at lower frequencies. This is good and bad. It's good because towers can reduce bass nodes, if ever so slightly. It's bad because towers need to be placed near the screen in order for the directionality of the middle and high frequencies to seem like their connected to the images.

This doesn't apply to subs because human hearing doesn't perceive the direction of low frequencies very well. This gives much more freedom to the positioning of subs. Now there is a theory that moving subs too far off axis reduces spatial clarity, but that may not matter as much in a simple HT set up as it would in, say an ATMOS setup or critical listening space for music.

 

[ryanosaur]

That's generally true for middle and high frequencies, but anything under sheet rock will only reduce bass nodes (which is never, ever bad). It won't have much of an affect on higher frequencies, which sheet rock reflects quite readily.

The curtains on the back wall won't do anything for bass. But they will absorb Middle and higher frequencies, which you don't want reflecting back from that distance because they would be grossly delayed.

We are in general agreement, Grim. I am recalling a Toole or Geddes statement though about improperly treating a room actually causing more deleterious effect than the untreated room... the example iirc, was using 1” panels that would only be able to attenuate the hf, and his comment that such could actually make an expensive high quality tweeter sound worse than a low quality tweeter in a poorly designed speaker would in the same untreated room.
My working theory: buy the best gear you can allow yourself to afford, including a mic, learn to test, and treat after you know.
And yes... there will be a lot of problems in that room. I completely agree.

 

[GrimSurfer]

We are in general agreement, Grim. I am recalling a Toole or Geddes statement though about improperly treating a room actually causing more deleterious effect than the untreated room... the example iirc, was using 1” panels that would only be able to attenuate the hf, and his comment that such could actually make an expensive high quality tweeter sound worse than a low quality tweeter in a poorly designed speaker would in the same untreated room.
My working theory: buy the best gear you can allow yourself to afford, including a mic, learn to test, and treat after you know.
And yes... there will be a lot of problems in that room. I completely agree.

Totally!

 

[Yoss15]

This is good stuff. You guys are giving me a lot to think about and helping me get a better handle on how the different frequencies act in a room.

Heheh, I was kind of hoping I'd be able to narrow it down to a certain kind of speaker or the other so I could be watching sales but that's probably a lot to ask of a topic as endlessly debatable as bookshelves vs towers. I am considering bookshelves more strongly than I was. Although I do kind of like the idea of better base extension in the meantime until I can acquire some real subs.

How does an arrangement like this strike you? I know it's not great having the seating overly close to the back wall and a divider doesn't negate the awkward shape. This gets the height speakers away from the duct and my right surround would no longer be waaaay off in right field. I could include some absorption panels behind the front speakers.

 

[ryanosaur]

Just use stands for the surrounds. No reason to wall mount for the sake of convenience. (Just my opinion.)

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I'm working on converting the basement to a family and movie room. The small 5.1 set up I had in our old house is proving less than satisfying in a larger and even more awkward space. I'd like to go to a 5.X.4 Atmos set up.

My new room is a bit under 3,000 cubic feet. In addition to being a somewhat awkward shape, I have a fireplace, ductwork and support pole that limit placement of the TV, speakers, and furniture. It's a basement with 7.5 foot ceilings, and the problematic ductwork reduces that to 6.5 feet above where I plan to put the couch. The light gray box overlaying the diagram indicates the ductwork. I'm thinking I'll probably have to space the atmos height speakers farther apart but for awhile I was kicking around the idea of mounting them on the sides of the ductwork, flush with the bottom edge.

Ok, finally to my main question about my front left, right and center speakers. To fill this space, do you think I'd be better served with large bookshelf speakers or towers? It would be about 70/30 movies and music. I'd prefer to keep it in the neighborhood of $1,000 for all 3. (Obviously I'll need subwoofer(s) regardless as I'm certain my old Dayton Sub-1000 won't be up to the task.)

I was considering the Polk Signature series https://www.polkaudio.com/collections/home-audio/signature-series.

Towers:
Polk S60, S55, or S50
and the S30 for a center

Bookshelves:
Polk S20
and the S30 for the center

I was also thinking of getting 3 of these RBH R-515 LCR speakers https://rbhsound.com/r515.php

My main hesitation at going with bookshelf speakers is based on my experience setting up my old Genesis 1+ speakers for 2-channel listening. (They're very similar to the old EPI 100s, 2-way, 8 inch woofer, good down to around 40 Hz.) They sounded so nice at my old place and now they just seem kind of lost. Probably room treatments would help, but would a tower like the S60 help me get a fuller sound?

Wow. Tough room indeed. So, for me, I’m a tower guy, but since your budget is a little tight(I haven’t made any calculations yet) I would go with the 515 as LCR, and use a pair of your old speakers as surrounds. Then, when funds permit, get a pair of 55’s by rbh for mains and move a pair of 515’s into surround duty. Rbh also makes a pretty decent subwoofer too, but I think HSU might(?) be a better value. Although rbh does have a nicer finish available. I also think rbh is a better value than Polk.

For atmos speakers, your idea to place them against the ducting seems ok, but I would mount to the ceiling instead. However, I think they should be a little closer together, and the top fronts should be a little farther forward. Also, my OCD wouldn’t allow that left surround to be where you have marked. I would go with BS speakers on stands flanking the couch, and just behind. I doodled on your picture just because. Lol blue atmos, red surrounds.

Also, here’s a few things for your brain.
Installation guide.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf
History.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-next-generation-audio-for-cinema-white-paper.pdf
Some angle guidelines.

For surrounds, the spec says they shouldn’t be more than 1.25x the height of the mains, but if you’ll have a couch full people it might be ok to raise them to like 1.55 or so to clear their heads. However, those are short ceilings so...maybe not, since the vertical separation between the bed layer and height layer is why atmos works. Ok. That’s all I got for now. .02

 

[ryanosaur]

I doodled on your picture just because. Lol blue atmos, red surrounds.

Ya! What he said!

 

[GrimSurfer]

This is good stuff. You guys are giving me a lot to think about and helping me get a better handle on how the different frequencies act in a room.

Heheh, I was kind of hoping I'd be able to narrow it down to a certain kind of speaker or the other so I could be watching sales but that's probably a lot to ask of a topic as endlessly debatable as bookshelves vs towers. I am considering bookshelves more strongly than I was. Although I do kind of like the idea of better base extension in the meantime until I can acquire some real subs.

How does an arrangement like this strike you? I know it's not great having the seating overly close to the back wall and a divider doesn't negate the awkward shape. This gets the height speakers away from the duct and my right surround would no longer be waaaay off in right field. I could include some absorption panels behind the front speakers.

That room divider will do you no favors, sonically. Better to leave it open and treat the back wall to some heavy curtains...