Making CDs Sound Like LPs.

[3db]

I have no belief that LPs have inferior FR
I've always believed that LPs extend above the 20kHz of CDs.

In any case, no worries, I wasn't thinking of you at all when I wrote it. I was thinking of articles and threads (primarily from other sites) I've read where there is conviction that the SQ of Vinyl is a substantial improvement over CD's.

I've inferred from exposure on this site that you are more down to earth on such matters.

I also believe you would not be the target market for a device to make CD's sound like records.

Right or wrong, I do believe that anyone who would buy a device to allow their CD's to mimic the sound of vinyl would be appalled at the concept of burning their vinyl to CDs, and I got a good laugh out of the idea.

Growing up with records and developing care methods as I matured and moved from children's LPs to "Top 10" 45's to music LPs, I prefer the convenience of CDs.
However if it were a magical world and I were King, all of my albums would come as vinyl so I could enjoy the ritual of pulling the record from the jacket and sleeve and inspect/clean it while anticipating the enjoyment of listening to it while looking at/reading through the cover art/notes/lyrics. After 2-3 plays, it would convert to the compact, durable, and quick format of a CD.

Thanks KEW. I came across a little harsh when responding to you and you were not even in scope. I apologize. My frequency response of vinyl comment was not directed at you but to the others who incorrectly chimed in to its limitations. I would love to get my hands on that Telarc recording of the 1812 Overture whose response digs down as far as 8Hz and far up as 50KHz. I don't know if I would enjoy it or not but its something I would like ot hear out of curiosity.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I would love to get my hands on that Telarc recording of the 1812 Overture whose response digs down as far as 8Hz and far up as 50KHz. I don't know if I would enjoy it or not but its something I would like ot hear out of curiosity.

You might enjoy it if you are a dog who has learned to read and type!

 

[mtrycrafts]

... I would love to get my hands on that Telarc recording of the 1812 Overture whose response digs down as far as 8Hz and far up as 50KHz. ..

I am aware of it on CD which I have but that would not go to 50kHz. As to that 8 Hz, well, it may register on instruments but not sure what its intensity would be to make any difference to feeling it.

 

[Pyrrho]

First of all, that frequency response is not flat, which makes it very unlike a CD.

First of, I never implied that in my post to you but whatever. Through the RIAA, the output as seen from the output stage of a phono pre-amp is that the frequency is fairly flat. Maybe not as flat as a CD but certainly not as far of as you may think.

It is not merely a question of the frequency response of the phono preamp (and how well it matches the RIAA equalization of the actual device used to make the disc, not how well it matches the RIAA specification), but the frequency response of the cartridge and the record itself, plus the frequency response of the equipment used in making the LP. Those effects are cumulative, and none of them are "ruler flat" like a CD.

Second, that frequency response is diminished with every play of the LP, so that its frequency response becomes worse and worse over time.

That is a myth perpetuated by the CD only camp. I have feet in both camps and recognize the merrit in both formats. ...

Nonsense. Do you seriously expect anyone to believe that when a diamond is dragged across a piece of plastic, that the plastic is not worn by this? Even the diamond, over time, shows noticeable wear! In the case of the LP, the high frequencies are diminished faster than the other frequencies (assuming a decent setup that is not totally wrecking the records). As for the rate of wear (which I omitted in quoting you), I said nothing about that; only that it actually occurs, with each playback wearing the LP a little more.

Of course, there is an exception to this, which does not use a stylus to play the LP, but almost no one uses it:

http://www.elpj.com/

And third, the frequency response worsens as the needle goes toward the center of the record (basically, due to the effective playback speed dropping, as it is shorter around the center than at the outmost edge, and the disc always rotates at the same basic speed). There is probably also a difference in frequency response depending on the volume level (as there is on analog tape; typically, analog tape decks are rated +/-3 dB at -20db, as it is worse at the 0dB reference point). And the frequency response issues are cumulative, so one must add in whatever anomalies exist in the master recorder for the disc.

When a recording engineer worth his salt is cutting a master, he will compensate for this effective shorter distance as you put it. ...

Nonsense. A recording engineer cannot magically add abilities to the inner part of the grove. The treble drop off will be greater in the center. This, by the way, is one reason why so many "audiophile" LPs do not have much time on them, and do not go very far toward the center.


As for the extension beyond 20kHz, I never said that LPs had a cutoff at 20kHz. Anything occurring up above that will be irrelevant to most humans in any case, so it would not matter if it were there (unless one had something like a recording of a dog whistle and played it for one's dog). However, the high frequency information will be lost with repeated playing of the disc, though how many times it takes to diminish it any given amount is going to depend upon many factors, including the playback equipment, how well it is set up, and the exact formulation of the vinyl LP. Given that many adults do not hear anywhere near as high as 20kHz, it may not matter for them, until the wear becomes very great.

Also, being very gradual with a decent, properly functioning turntable, one is very unlikely to notice the loss, as each playback is almost as good as the one before it. To notice it before the wear became very great, it would probably be necessary to have more than one copy of the LP, so that one could compare one's used LP with a new one that had never been played before. But since virtually no one does that, the slight loss of quality with each play is generally unnoticed.


Now, none of this means that an LP cannot sound "good". But it simply is less than ideal for the flatness of its frequency response (among other things), and it is going to lose the treble over time, if the LP is actually played.

 

[Pyrrho]

Well, I think many vinyl aficionados believe that the quality of CD's is a step down from vinyl, and the idea of converting vinyl to CD (which would capture any rumble and the pops) as a better end product than a CD mastered as a CD seems a bit absurd. For someone who thinks the vinyl format has SQ advantages over CD, this would be the worst of both worlds - you would be capturing all the flaws of LPs and further constraining the SQ to that of a CD.
Maybe it is just me.

Yes, many believe such nonsense, and so they do not want to do that. However, with "blind" testing, it has been shown that people cannot hear any difference with "high resolution sources" when a CD quality digital encoder and decoder is inserted into the signal path. Here is an example:

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm

 

[3db]

It is not merely a question of the frequency response of the phono preamp (and how well it matches the RIAA equalization of the actual device used to make the disc, not how well it matches the RIAA specification), but the frequency response of the cartridge and the record itself, plus the frequency response of the equipment used in making the LP. Those effects are cumulative, and none of them are "ruler flat" like a CD. .

Have you cchecked teh frequency responses of cartridges lately? I'm guessing the answer is no. Reagradless of what you think Prryo, frequqncy response of vinyl surpasses that of CD because of the brick wall filtering employed by the CD playback process.

The cartridge I'm using...which is a lower end cartridge ...
http://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-2M-Red-Phono-Cartridge

http://www.needledoctor.com/Grado-Gold1-Prestige-Series-Phono-Cartridge
This one is capable of 10Hz-60KHz

Nonsense. Do you seriously expect anyone to believe that when a diamond is dragged across a piece of plastic, that the plastic is not worn by this? Even the diamond, over time, shows noticeable wear! In the case of the LP, the high frequencies are diminished faster than the other frequencies (assuming a decent setup that is not totally wrecking the records). As for the rate of wear (which I omitted in quoting you), I said nothing about that; only that it actually occurs, with each playback wearing the LP a little more.

Of course, there is an exception to this, which does not use a stylus to play the LP, but almost no one uses it:

http://www.elpj.com/


Nonsense. A recording engineer cannot magically add abilities to the inner part of the grove. The treble drop off will be greater in the center. This, by the way, is one reason why so many "audiophile" LPs do not have much time on them, and do not go very far toward the center.

As for the extension beyond 20kHz, I never said that LPs had a cutoff at 20kHz. Anything occurring up above that will be irrelevant to most humans in any case, so it would not matter if it were there (unless one had something like a recording of a dog whistle and played it for one's dog). However, the high frequency information will be lost with repeated playing of the disc, though how many times it takes to diminish it any given amount is going to depend upon many factors, including the playback equipment, how well it is set up, and the exact formulation of the vinyl LP. Given that many adults do not hear anywhere near as high as 20kHz, it may not matter for them, until the wear becomes very great.

Also, being very gradual with a decent, properly functioning turntable, one is very unlikely to notice the loss, as each playback is almost as good as the one before it. To notice it before the wear became very great, it would probably be necessary to have more than one copy of the LP, so that one could compare one's used LP with a new one that had never been played before. But since virtually no one does that, the slight loss of quality with each play is generally unnoticed.


Now, none of this means that an LP cannot sound "good". But it simply is less than ideal for the flatness of its frequency response (among other things), and it is going to lose the treble over time, if the LP is actually played.

I never said record wear didn't happen. I said it was grossly exgaggerated..hence the diamond needle wearing out much much faster than the albums. If you doubt this, please come to my home and I'll be happy to show you a properly set-up system playing 40 yr old records which sound great BTW. Some of these albums, I haven't played in a very very long time so I would notice the treble drop off.

This whole discussuion came about with you're incorrect comment of frequency response of vinyl. Just to reiterate, the frequency response of vinyl is greater than that of the CD because of teh Brick Wall filtering applied which BTW is required to prevent antialiasing frequencies from showing up in the data. Is it as flat as a CD, probably not. Does it come close.. Pretty close I'm sure.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Have you cchecked teh frequency responses of cartridges lately? I'm guessing the answer is no. Reagradless of what you think Prryo, frequqncy response of vinyl surpasses that of CD because of the brick wall filtering employed by the CD playback process.

The cartridge I'm using...which is a lower end cartridge ...
http://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-2M-Red-Phono-Cartridge

http://www.needledoctor.com/Grado-Gold1-Prestige-Series-Phono-Cartridge
This one is capable of 10Hz-60KHz
....

Did you look closely at the specs on the first one? +3,-1?
channel separation at two points, 22 dB and 15dB?
How well does it do at 22 kHz?Any worthwhile music up there that passes the detection threshold? Don't bother with that claimed 60kHz on the 2nd. Too funny.
But, you are a good guy and still a good friend

 

[TLS Guy]

It is not merely a question of the frequency response of the phono preamp (and how well it matches the RIAA equalization of the actual device used to make the disc, not how well it matches the RIAA specification), but the frequency response of the cartridge and the record itself, plus the frequency response of the equipment used in making the LP. Those effects are cumulative, and none of them are "ruler flat" like a CD.

Nonsense. Do you seriously expect anyone to believe that when a diamond is dragged across a piece of plastic, that the plastic is not worn by this? Even the diamond, over time, shows noticeable wear! In the case of the LP, the high frequencies are diminished faster than the other frequencies (assuming a decent setup that is not totally wrecking the records). As for the rate of wear (which I omitted in quoting you), I said nothing about that; only that it actually occurs, with each playback wearing the LP a little more.

Of course, there is an exception to this, which does not use a stylus to play the LP, but almost no one uses it:

http://www.elpj.com/

Nonsense. A recording engineer cannot magically add abilities to the inner part of the grove. The treble drop off will be greater in the center. This, by the way, is one reason why so many "audiophile" LPs do not have much time on them, and do not go very far toward the center.

As for the extension beyond 20kHz, I never said that LPs had a cutoff at 20kHz. Anything occurring up above that will be irrelevant to most humans in any case, so it would not matter if it were there (unless one had something like a recording of a dog whistle and played it for one's dog). However, the high frequency information will be lost with repeated playing of the disc, though how many times it takes to diminish it any given amount is going to depend upon many factors, including the playback equipment, how well it is set up, and the exact formulation of the vinyl LP. Given that many adults do not hear anywhere near as high as 20kHz, it may not matter for them, until the wear becomes very great.

Also, being very gradual with a decent, properly functioning turntable, one is very unlikely to notice the loss, as each playback is almost as good as the one before it. To notice it before the wear became very great, it would probably be necessary to have more than one copy of the LP, so that one could compare one's used LP with a new one that had never been played before. But since virtually no one does that, the slight loss of quality with each play is generally unnoticed.


Now, none of this means that an LP cannot sound "good". But it simply is less than ideal for the flatness of its frequency response (among other things), and it is going to lose the treble over time, if the LP is actually played.

Actually with good mastering and playback equipment 30 Hz to 20 kHz +/- 1db is achievable with the LP.

With good equipment LP ware is minimal and HF loss does not occur. I have records going back fifty years that have had a lot of playings and still play perfectly.

It is that hard/soft concept. Ware is reduced between a hard soft interface than two hard surfaces. That is how the bearings in an engine work. The crankshaft bearings contain soft white metal between the hard surfaces. when the soft white metal finally wears out the engine fails catastrophically. There is also lubrication, however without soft white metal lubrication alone would be to little avail.

Any given part of the groove is in contact with the stylus for only a fraction of a second. The stylus is in contact with the groove constantly and wears after thousands of playings.

In addition the groove is elastic to a degree and unless deformed beyond its elastic limit will return to its previous form. Good equipment does not deform the groove beyond its elastic limit.

One of the most remarkable aspects of the LP is its endurance when played with good equipment. This has been noted by many.

Loss of fidelity with playing is one or a combination of poor record care, poor turntables (common) and improperly set up and adjusted turntables. (Also common).

The slowing of the speed as the pickup moves to the inside grooves is the biggest problem of the LP. More often then not the grand finale is fortissimo.

The problem is minimized by setting up for zero tracking error on the inside grooves. Many mastering engineers also slightly roll off the bass more on the inside grooves. You have to be subtle about this.

Are the best LPs as good as the best CDs, no, but they are very very close when played back on superior equipment. I don't think I could tell a lot of LPs from their CD counterpart.

As far as longevity, I have had more CDs become unplayable overtime than LPs by far.

 

[3db]

Did you look closely at the specs on the first one? +3,-1?
channel separation at two points, 22 dB and 15dB?
How well does it do at 22 kHz?Any worthwhile music up there that passes the detection threshold? Don't bother with that claimed 60kHz on the 2nd. Too funny.
But, you are a good guy and still a good friend

Gee thanks mtrycrafts!!!

As far as I know, other than syntheziers, no other instrument comes close to achieving 20KHz so the frequency due to record wear or the brick wall filtering required by CD is really a moot one. I just wanted to clear up a phallacy that seems to propogate through this and many other forums about limited frequency response. Vinyl due the recording process is far more cabapable of storing the high frequency component than a CD. Not becuase of the CD format but the brick wall filtering required in the process that limits the response to 22KHz. Limit here is a funny word because I can't hear past 14Khz now.

 

[KEW]

As far as I know, other than synthesizers, no other instrument comes close to achieving 20KHz so the frequency due to record wear or the brick wall filtering required by CD is really a moot one.

Does anyone know if this has been measured?
I expect the fundamentals do not go up there, but I have always assumed my dog hears stuff well beyond 20kHz-22kHz when cold steel is being struck.
I don't know where the overtones from normal instruments cease to exist or if they extend forever into the inaudible "stratosphere".