Mains & Power

[killdozzer]

Hello everyone!! I just came across your web site (and forum, later) by typing something like "best buy speaker cables" into google, wanting to learn more about the price/quality relation.

I got more than I bargained for, and I'm really thankful to all of you doing a wonderful job on "myth assassination".

Now, both Wirecutter and Audioholics offer a lot of insight in myths about cables, but I somehow suspect there should also be a lot of debunking on subjects of Mains & Power. But the terms are too broad and general for the forum search button (if you type main and power it filters next to nothing), so I'm kindly asking you to direct me to good read about mains and power.

This is my problem. I live in a very old building, so, to sum it up, it could withstand a nuclear war, but electrical installations are "third world" (actually from 60'). Two prongs all around, no good ground etc. Also, if you look at electrical power as a product it would also rate as third world in my country (great oscillation etc).

I would like to buy "black magic free" mains filter and distribution block, primarily to keep my equipment safe, and possibly to use it for ground (as my speakers have a connection for ground).

Could you just throw a link or two my way, where it has been covered?

TIA
killdozzer

 

[ImcLoud]

I wouldn't want to live in a building that had no grounds, I land lord a lot of properties and would never keep a groundless outlet in service, never mind all groundless circuits...

Anyway, I would make sure there was a problem before trying to fix it, personally I would have an electrician come in and run you a simple 14-2 supply to where your equipment is going to be installed, depending on which floor you are on it shouldn't be much of a problem. If that is not an option simply take out your old receptacle and add a GFI unit, do not connect the ground to anything and it will still protect and trip if there is a fault... Leviton X7599-W SmartlockPro Slim GFCI Tamper-Resistant Receptacle with LED Indicator, 15-Amp, White - Amazon.com

here is the instruction on what to do

Perhaps one of the cheapest and simplest ways to address this is by using a ground fault interrupter or GFI also known as a GFCI outlet. This is a good choice for many hard to re-wire cases. Instead of running a ground wire, or connecting a ground connection to the outlet, you will rely on the GFI function to provide the personal protection. It is not the same thing, but for most instances it is better. A GFI breaker or outlet will trip when there is not the same amount of current flowing in both electrical lines. So, if there is a loose wire, and some of the current starts to travel into the casing (toward you), it will trip and stop all current flow. Better than just letting it travel to the ground via the ground wire, it stops all current flow preventing any shocks. The one instance where it should not be used, is where equipment uses a surge protector (like your computer's surge protector if you have one). Surge protectors use the ground wire to redirect the surge until it can trip.

So, to use a GFI outlet, wire it in WITHOUT connecting anything to the ground screw. This outlet should be labeled "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND" since it has the ground connection left unconnected. Other outlets can be wired with standard grounded outlets if they are wired through the LOAD side of the GFI outlet. Still, running no ground.. these outlet should be labeled "GFI PROTECTED, NO EQUIPMENT GROUND"










that is probably the most simple way if you can not get a ground ran... as far as the quality of your electricity making an audible change in your audio, I would think if it was an electrical problem say a blender on the same circuit making noise, you will hear the blender over the distortion anyway... Don't waste your money on fancy gadgets that are supposed to make your system sound better, before I would be looking into fancy power conditioners and stuff like that I would have to have a 50K dollar pair of speakers...


A house from the 60's should have copper wiring, so you can simply run a ground cable to the box or external rod, if its on an outside wall you can drill out run it down the building and to the rod, no wire snaking needed, but the groundless gfi will perform just as good if not better...

 

[slipperybidness]

Good advice all around from IMC.

IIRC, I think dirty power will show up in the TV first, with horizontal lighter lines in the image. If you aren't seeing that, then the power may not be as bad as you think.

Also, a well-designed powersupply in electronics can handle some line variation and still output a clean DC signal.

 

[Speedskater]

Most US/CAN homes of that vintage, have a GEC ground wire to the main metal water pipe. But over a 50 year period, important segments of that pipe may have been replaced with plastic pipe. So you could add a pair of ground rods connected at the service entrance / main breaker box connection point. Now (with a very expensive exception) 2 ground rods (6 or more feet apart) are required (rather than one rod). These connections to the dirt are for safety during thunderstorms and power company high-voltage failures.

But from a audio system point of view, that connection to the dirt adds nothing to the system's audio quality. It's the building interior Safety Ground (EGC) system that we (as audiophiles) are interested in and for that see the above post about GFCI receptacle's.

 

[killdozzer]

First of all a big thank you for your extensive answers and effort you put in your posts.

I'll have to work on translation a bit, as English is not my first language and I'll have to find correlating terms to understand everything you said.

For now, just a short comment. I see you have those DIY mindsets, and I think of them highly, but wouldn't believe myself to do all that drilling and such on my own. Contractors are also not an option. You can expect them to tell you; what in a world do you need a ground for, when a bulb pops buy a replacement ).

I'm half a way around the globe. I live in a highrise, on the eight floor. So some of your advice will not suit me.

Furthermore, expensive gadgetry is the very thing I'm trying to avoid. Also, I'm not saying these things affect my audio experience. I'm trying to find something that will keep my equipment safe and possibly could be used for grounding my equipment. Electrical grid has a lot of bursts here, I'm talking amplitudes in strength itself. Those energy efficient light bulb last just a few months more then regular. Every bad weather you can see at least a couple of short power outages (half a second - second long).

This is similar to turning the electricity on and off in the middle of your album listening, is it not?

Since I'm not all that good around electricity, is there such a thing as a battery of a sort that would even out these irregularities before it sends currency towards your equipment, but could also be used to ground the equipment. I'm not really certain is it enough to ground something to the chassis of, let's say amp, if the amp is not grounded well. Perhaps I don't understand the whole thing very well, but shouldn't the chassis be actually grounded if you want to use it to ground something else?

I know equipment today has all sorts of safety fuses, but fuses popping is not such a good news if it can happen every now and then. A lot of my equipment gets damaged by electricity. PC audio cards, TV cable modems, bulbs on monthly basis etc, and a lot of those gadgets that need low power like external hard disks with 9V or 12V adapters. And I can hear radio program when I connect my TV to speakers via RCA, which wouldn't happen if I'm informed correctly, if my equipment was grounded properly.

I think I'll see your answers tomorrow, cause it's late night here, so I'm signing out for the day.

Thanks again, and read you all tomorrow.
killdozzer

 

[ImcLoud]

I would solicit advice in your local, obviously the members on this board are primarily located in North America, while there are some exceptions, I think your best bet for help is with a local service company, they may have a device or better answer than what we can provide...

 

[westom]

Furthermore, expensive gadgetry is the very thing I'm trying to avoid. Also, I'm not saying these things affect my audio experience. I'm trying to find something that will keep my equipment safe and possibly could be used for grounding my equipment. Electrical grid has a lot of bursts here, I'm talking amplitudes in strength itself. Those energy efficient light bulb last just a few months more then regular.

No one solution exists for all anomalies. Safety ground does nothing to protect light bulbs. A problem (the anomaly) must be defined before asking for a solution.

For example, do incandescent bulbs brighten or dimi when major appliances power cycle? That often indicated a loose wire or some other similar wiring problem. Nothing adjacent (attached) to your appliances will avert that anomaly. Electronics are designed to make even larger voltage variations irrelevant.

No safety ground means increased risk to human life. A problem often averted by replacing circuit breakers with GFCI (or RCD) types. Or by replacing wall receptacles with GFCI type. So that if electric current goes elsewhere (ie through a human body), then power is disconnected.

Another and completely different anomaly is commonly called a surge. These rare (maybe once every seven year) events occur in microseconds. And must be addressed where power enters. For example, how does your main breaker box (power board) get connected to earth ground? That earthing wire defines electronic protection from that anomaly. Again, wall receptacle safety ground (third prong) does nothing to protect electronics for a long list of reasons. Ground for this anomaly is a different wire that connects an AC power box to earth ground.

Filters are for other anomalies such as noise or RFI. Mostly needed when filters are missing inside electronics.

Hum is another completely different anomaly often caused by ground loops. That ground has no relationship to safety ground or earth ground. Which anomaly concerns you? Details possible after the specific anomaly is defined.

 

[killdozzer]

@westom

This is very helpful. I'll have to look into more details to answer these questions. So far I started digging for blueprints and specs. of the building, to get the clearer picture.

I guess I thought grounding would solve hums as well. So these have to be solved separately?

Also, no brightening or dimming, things just burn out. Light bulbs on monthly basis, and other appliances every now and then (it mostly happens at the moment you switch something on). Modems and PC audio cards you just find dead after a few thunders.

OK, since safety of people and equipment is my main concern, you think GFCI breaker might do the job? But I must say this; I personally experienced equipment fuse not being enough to save the equipment. We had a storm, nothing serious, a few thunders (none of them into our building), and a CD-DVD player went down. Since it had guarantee expired, we opened it up and took the fuse out (black of course) and we bought a new one (all markings exactly the same), it didn't help. The equipment was dead. So, I'm looking for something that would pop before the equipments fuses start going out. Would this also lead me towards a GFCI and have you ever seen one with two prongs?

I guess I'll deal with hums afterwards, one step at a time.
killdozzer

 

[Rickster71]

This is my problem. I live in a very old building, so, to sum it up, it could withstand a nuclear war, but electrical installations are "third world" (actually from 60'). Two prongs all around, no good ground etc. Also, if you look at electrical power as a product it would also rate as third world in my country (great oscillation etc).

I would like to buy "black magic free" mains filter and distribution block, primarily to keep my equipment safe, and possibly to use it for ground (as my speakers have a connection for ground).

killdozzer

The multiple power issues that you're experiencing are well beyond the scope of the Black Magic filter you've mentioned and a web site discussion forum. (In what country is this taking place?)

It sounds like you're in a large old building that wasn't maintained, that also has local power issues.

Call the landlord and get his electrician in there. At least have him check your panel and explain your experiences and problems.
It will be a very expensive fix/retro-fit for the building owner; I doubt he'll be willing to make them.
If they don't make the necessary repairs, I'd move. It may be easier said than done, I don't make that statement lightly.
Good luck.

 

[westom]

Also, no brightening or dimming, things just burn out. Light bulbs on monthly basis, and other appliances every now and then (it mostly happens at the moment you switch something on). Modems and PC audio cards you just find dead after a few thunders.

OK, since safety of people and equipment is my main concern, you think GFCI breaker might do the job? But I must say this; I personally experienced equipment fuse not being enough to save the equipment.

Reasons for incandescent bulb pre-mature failure would be completely different from pre-mature failure of CFL bulbs. Pre-mature incandescent failure implies a constant and excessively high line voltage. Vague is which type was described as high efficiency bulbs. No filter, et al would address a problem that must be solved in an AC utility transformer.

Fuses blow only after equipment has failed - to protect human life from a resulting fire. Fuses do not protect equipment; only blow after equipment failure to protect humans.

GFCI (RCD) are for human safety; do nothing to protect equipment. These devices work same on two wire or three wire circuits. Their purpose is to detect current passing through a human body and then disconnect power. GFCI is one way to operate three prong electric appliances on two wire circuits. Since the third prong's primary function is to protect human life; not protect equipment.

Hum is a ground loop. Appreciate the word ground can apply to many differents locations. Safety ground is completely different from computer motherboard ground, is electrically different from computer chassis ground, is electrically different from earth ground, is different from a TV's floating ground, which is different from the ground involved in a ground loop and resulting hum. Unfortunately many assume all grounds are same only because the same six letter word describe all.

Best evidence is a dead body. CD-player could be quite informative. For example, if surge damaged, then it must have an incoming path and a different outgoing current path. Long after those incoming and outgoing paths did damage, then the fuse blew. So what specifically were scortch marks; what incoming and outgoing wires would connect through damage area?

Classic modem damage can demonstrate same. Incoming is often AC mains. That transient can enter a motherboard, pass through the modem, and then be outgoing (seek earth ground) destructively via the modem and phone line (or cable). In this case, damage is often on the outgoing path (phone or cable connection). Many assume that is the incoming path by forgetting a simultaneous outgoing current path must also exist.

This type damage is a transients hunting destructively for earth ground via appliances. Because that transient was not connected to earth BEFORE entering a building. Yesterday it might use PC audio cards as a best path to earth. Tomorrow it might be a CD player. Nothing stops (ie filters) this anomaly. This anomaly is routinely averted at the service entrance.

Step one is to identify which anomaly is causing that damage. Discussing solutions (ie filter, ground connections, etc) comes much later. Dead bodies (modem, CD player, PC audio, bulbs) contain best evidence.