Low End Surround Sound Speaker Selection: Best Bang for $500

[SoCalAudioNewb]

Hi everyone. I want to start with a caveat: this topic will be offensive to many of you.

I am a self proclaimed tech geek, and I love all things electronics. That being said, I am a tech geek with a finite budget who just bought his 1st condo, and I need to make some serous compromises on my audio gear to stay in budget. That's the bad news. The good news is the wife green lighted an audio upgrade. All of you will laugh, but I currently have a set of 5.1 COMPUTER SPEAKERS from Cambridge Soundworks that I attached to my $150 Yamaha receiver that I got at Fry's back in college (yes, they make 5.1 computer speakers - that's a whole other discussion, LOL). I am looking to spend $500 or less on 5 speakers to be used for surround sound movies and occasional music. I do already have a Velodyne sub someone gave me (it's pretty large, I want to say 8" or maybe even 10" cone???).

My objectives are as follows:
1) quality: get the best sound for my bargain dollar that I can. I realize many of you find it abhorent to even look at a low end crap, but that's where I am.
2) upgradability: I would like to get the speakers now since they are the most glaring shortcoming in my system, then later find nicer receiver and subwoofer if I am not happy with the sound. I can't do all componenents at once based on my budget.
3) minimize visual blight: the wife will go for small cube speakers, not for large free standing speakers.

Current Thoughts:
- BOSE: Yes they are horrible for a multitude of reasons, I get it. My brother got a set of Accoustimass 10 series IV speakers + sub he will sell me new in box for $450. He got them as a wedding present but already had better stuff. The question is, despite being bad, are these Bose speakers better than my next best alternative for the money?
- OTHER: I am open to suggestion, but I saw the EMP ECA-4/ECA44 speakers positively reviewed on this site. The idea would be to use the Velodyne sub with these speakers. I don't know the Velodyne model (I'll add to the post when I get home), so I realize it makes it tough to assess the speaker pairing for gaps in frequency response, etc.

QUESTION: I am hoping to get your guidance on which is my best bang for my $500: A) the EMP ECA-4/ECA-44, B) the Bose Accoustimass 10 series IV speakers, C) some other speaker system.

Thanks for everyone's help!

 

[ack_bak]

Stay away from the Bose! Whatever you do. The EMP speakers seem like a tremendous value for the money. But can you get your wife to sign off on this EMP package instead:
http://store.audioholics.com/product/1866/17/emp-htp-351-5-1-speaker-system

Those EF30 speakers are the clones of the RBH TK5 speakers which are very good speakers and cost much more.

Otherwise the EMP 4 speaker your mentioned should sound pretty good and will definitely be a step up from your current speakers by a mile

Oterwise you may want to put something like this on your list:
http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Classic-Entertainment-System-Black/dp/B001202C44/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1241206580&sr=8-1

 

[markw]

There's quite a few options out there.

Here's one from a known manufacturer at quite a discount from a reputable dealer with a fair return policy.

For your five main speakers : http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ENTAKE5PK

And to fill in the low end, a 10" powered subwoofer : http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ENESW

Yeah, it comes in at a little $400 but you can get some decent wires, interconnects, or a few DVD's, or even a decent universal/DVD player with that.

I'm sure others will chime in with other options as well, but please avoid Bose. Trust us on this one.

Oops... I see you already have a sub. Try this.

Two pairs of these : http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ENC100 PCHE and for a matching center : http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ENCC50 CHE

Dang! still under $400.

 

[fredk]

No laughing here. For 3 years I listened to music and watched movies with an even cheaper pair of computer speakers.

The answer is C) some other system used.

For $500 I would look in the second hand market. Be patient, get to know prices so you have an idea what fits in your budget, listen to new stuff to figure out how a brand/speaker sounds and buy when you find the right deal used.

You want some brands? PSB, Paradigm, usher, Axiom, Aperion...

Check out some of the recent bookshelf threads for specific models, go out and listen to see what you like and go from there.

 

[SoCalAudioNewb]

Thanks for the replies. I've seen some good recommendations that I should check out.

I am curious if I were to buy one of the 5.1 speaker systems above and I wanted to later upgrade my receiver to a 6.1, would I be able to just add another satellite speaker to serve the 6th channel or would I have to replace the entire speaker set?

 

[markw]

Thanks for the replies. I've seen some good recommendations that I should check out.

I am curious if I were to buy one of the 5.1 speaker systems above and I wanted to later upgrade my receiver to a 6.1, would I be able to just add another satellite speaker to serve the 6th channel or would I have to replace the entire speaker set?

The speakers in my first pair of recommendations are sold in a set of five.

Most bookshelves, like those in my second recommendation, are sold in pairs. Buying one might prove problematic, but you would be all set for a 7.1 system with another pair.

 

[lsiberian]

First, I don't appreciate all the prejudgment. You clearly don't know us and our budgets. Yet you choose to assume a lot of things that are just untrue. We have one goal. Help people find the speakers that meet their requirements with the best sound possible.

I can tailor solutions to you if your willing to work with us.

Now on size constraints would a normal bookshelf size speaker be ok for the fronts? If so I will suggest you look at the KEF iQ1s and pair them with the KEF iQ8s.

That setup would be a very nice mid-fi system. With dipole type surrounds and good 2-ways on the front.

I do suggest you look at KEF products. They make the best small speaker on the market IMO.

Also please take a look at craigslist. Type KEF in and see if anything hits.

I got my speakers for 1/5th their retail price. IOTW I got 800 dollars of speaker for 160. So do check it out. Use posts here for speaker brands.

 

[SoCalAudioNewb]

First, I don't appreciate all the prejudgment. You clearly don't know us and our budgets. Yet you choose to assume a lot of things that are just untrue. We have one goal. Help people find the speakers that meet their requirements with the best sound possible.
> Sorry for the misconception on my part. I was prolly concerned that my low-end requirements would be dissed.

I can tailor solutions to you if your willing to work with us.
> I appreciate the help!

Now on size constraints would a normal bookshelf size speaker be ok for the fronts?
> My goal is nice sound for the money, and my wife's goal is keeping the speakers on the smaller side if possible.

QUESTION: How much sound quality and/or volume do I loose by going with the smaller cube speakers instead of the bookshelf form factor?

 

[jamie2112]

QUESTION: How much sound quality and/or volume do I loose by going with the smaller cube speakers instead of the bookshelf form factor?

I would say you are going to give up some midrange quality if you went with cubes. I have yet to hear a cube set that sounds good in a 5.1 format setup. A 3 1/2" or 4" speaker just doesn't cut it for me for the center. IMO of course....Isiberian lighten up dude

 

[FNG212]

Look at www.thespeakercompany.com

you should be able to put together a rig for your budget from them.

Energy Take Classic 5.1 can be found for 400-500 at some online stores.

 

[ack_bak]

[
QUESTION: How much sound quality and/or volume do I loose by going with the smaller cube speakers instead of the bookshelf form factor?

I concur with jaime2112. I would definitely recommend demoing some bookshelf speakers and you may want to bring the wife. Honestly, if you get a nice stand bookshelf speakers can look nice. I would personally push for them if I were you.

And how in the world are you going to get your wife to buy into letting you get a subwoofer

 

[SoCalAudioNewb]

Cool - got the wife's buy-in on the bookshelf form factor.

Subwoofer: I already have the Velodyne CT-100 subwoofer that a friend gave me a while back. It is really big, but fits into a cabinet I have so no one ever sees it, so no issue there.

 

[SoCalAudioNewb]

frequency response: need advice on overlap between sub & sat speakers

Based on everyone's recommendations, I think I am going to go with the "Energy Take Classic 5 Pack 5.0" (that is unless anyone has a compelling reason they are a poor choice). I can use my existing sub & my existing receiver now, and upgrade them later if I am unhappy with them.

Next question is frequency response. Here are the frequency response ranges for the speakers, the sub I have already, and the reccomended sub made by Energy:
- Energy Take Classic Satellite Speakers: 115Hz-20KHz (Center Speaker: 110Hz-20KHz)
- Current Sub: Velodyne CT-100: 28Hz-120Hz +/- 3db
- Energy Take Classic Paired Sub: 33Hz-150Hz +/- 3dB

So basically the speakers cover (110Hz-20KHz), and the recommended sub covers (33Hz-150Hz), and the sub I already own covers (28Hz-120Hz).

QUESTIONS:
(Ok so these questions may be based on bad assumptions - if they are please let me know.)
1) Intuitively I feel like it would make sense to have some overlap in frequency response between the sub and the satellite/center speakers. Is that correct? If so, is the overlap of 10Hz between the speakers and my Velodyne sub sufficient, or do I need more overlap than that for to achieve proper sound?
2) Intuitively I would also guess you don't want sound of a given frequency to be sent to both the sub and the speakers - is that correct? I would also assume it's best to use the receiver's crossover settings to route sound to the sub or speakers, and not to use the crossover dial on the sub. Am I correct that I should set the crossover at 110Hz, and that I should set it on the receiver as opposed to on the sub's crossover?

 

[markw]

QUESTION: How much sound quality and/or volume do I loose by going with the smaller cube speakers instead of the bookshelf form factor?

The smaller the speaker, the more you need to depend on the subwoofer to generate the sound. Most receivers cut off upper bass the mains about 80 hz or so and let the sub take over from there on down. This assures that sounds come from where they are supposed to.

If you depend on the sub to do the upper bass (above 80 hz or so), you open up the possibility of being able to "localize" some male voices and other sounds in the upper bass region as coming from the sub as opposed to where they should be emanating.

And, as Jamie said, using slightly larger mains will provide a more "full" sound over most of the range.

The small speakers (Energy Take series included) are very good (far better than Bose) for what they are, but slightly larger speakers will provide a more rewarding experience and still not overwhelm the room.

As to your more current post:

You do want some overlap. The numbers referenced in specs are not "brick wall" numbers but reflect a point in a downward curve in the speakers responses. And, these are pretty approximate and depend on the room placement and acoustics. Ideally, the crossover point should "blend" so that where the mains drop off, the sub is starting to take over.

Yes, you'll be using the subs to just about their upper limits with the small speakers and they will be handling a lot of that upper bass.

But, if you're using the receiver's crossover, you will want to bypass the sub's internal crossover. I believe the Velo has a switch to allow this but dunno about the Energys. If your sub does not have a bypass switch, simply turn the subs xover to as high a number as possible. This will minimize it's effect.

As an aside, since you already have the sub, why go for the take 5.1 system with the 8" sub included in the package for $400 when the take 5 speakers w/o the sub are available for $200? I can't find a whole lot of difference between the Take 5 and the 5.1 systems. Besides, the Take 5 system I suggested at Audio Advisor has that Energy 8" subs 10" big brother figured in for the same $$.

 

[SoCalAudioNewb]

The smaller the speaker, the more you need to depend on the subwoofer to generate the sound. Most receivers cut off upper bass the mains about 80 hz or so and let the sub take over from there on down. This assures that sounds come from where they are supposed to. If you depend on the sub to do the upper bass (above 80 hz or so), you open up the possibility of being able to "localize" some male voices and other sounds in the upper bass region as coming from the sub as opposed to where they should be emanating.
> Completely makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

You do want some overlap. The numbers referenced in specs are not "brick wall" numbers but reflect a point in a downward curve in the speakers responses. And, these are pretty approximate and depend on the room placement and acoustics. Ideally, the crossover point should "blend" so that where the mains drop off, the sub is starting to take over. Yes, you'll be using the subs to just about their upper limits with the small speakers and they will be handling a lot of that upper bass.
> Gotcha. While the Take Classic speakers may be limited in low mid-range compatred to larger speakers, I know see they will be MUCH better than the Bose system I was looking at that actually have complete gaps in reproduction of some frequencies.
> With the Take Classics I realize that I am compromising and accepting *some* tone localization (frequencies on the higher end of the low spectrum will come from the sub instead of from the woofers of large speakers), but I am getting a much better sound than the Bose and way under budget (only $200 for 5 speakers instead of $450 for the Bose).

But, if you're using the receiver's crossover, you will want to bypass the sub's internal crossover. I believe the Velo has a switch to allow this but dunno about the Energys. If your sub does not have a bypass switch, simply turn the subs xover to as high a number as possible. This will minimize it's effect.
> Yup: the Velodyne lets you turn off its internal crossover. Will do.

As an aside, since you already have the sub, why go for the take 5.1 system with the 8" sub included in the package for $400 when the take 5 speakers w/o the sub are available for $200? I can't find a whole lot of difference between the Take 5 and the 5.1 systems.
> Let me clarify: I wanted to use my Velodyne sub with the take classic speakers, but I was unsure if my Velo sub and these speakers were a good pairing from a frequency response persective. It sounds like they are a viable pairing from that perspective, so I plan to get just the take classic speakers and use my current sub (I will buy the no sub 5.0 package, not the 5.1 package that includes a sub).

 

[lsiberian]

Cool - got the wife's buy-in on the bookshelf form factor.

Subwoofer: I already have the Velodyne CT-100 subwoofer that a friend gave me a while back. It is really big, but fits into a cabinet I have so no one ever sees it, so no issue there.

Woah man. Putting a sub inside a cabinet is a sonic disaster. If you truly must you will want to use memory foam to line the area around it.

 

[lsiberian]

Based on everyone's recommendations, I think I am going to go with the "Energy Take Classic 5 Pack 5.0" (that is unless anyone has a compelling reason they are a poor choice). I can use my existing sub & my existing receiver now, and upgrade them later if I am unhappy with them.

Next question is frequency response. Here are the frequency response ranges for the speakers, the sub I have already, and the reccomended sub made by Energy:
- Energy Take Classic Satellite Speakers: 115Hz-20KHz (Center Speaker: 110Hz-20KHz)
- Current Sub: Velodyne CT-100: 28Hz-120Hz +/- 3db
- Energy Take Classic Paired Sub: 33Hz-150Hz +/- 3dB

So basically the speakers cover (110Hz-20KHz), and the recommended sub covers (33Hz-150Hz), and the sub I already own covers (28Hz-120Hz).

QUESTIONS:
(Ok so these questions may be based on bad assumptions - if they are please let me know.)
1) Intuitively I feel like it would make sense to have some overlap in frequency response between the sub and the satellite/center speakers. Is that correct? If so, is the overlap of 10Hz between the speakers and my Velodyne sub sufficient, or do I need more overlap than that for to achieve proper sound?
2) Intuitively I would also guess you don't want sound of a given frequency to be sent to both the sub and the speakers - is that correct? I would also assume it's best to use the receiver's crossover settings to route sound to the sub or speakers, and not to use the crossover dial on the sub. Am I correct that I should set the crossover at 110Hz, and that I should set it on the receiver as opposed to on the sub's crossover?

I can't suggest this package. I am very concerned about the very high crossover for the sub.

I suggest you look at an SVS set. http://www.svsound.com/products-spks-sbs01.cfm

Even the Speaker companys LCR packages would be better IMO.

That would give you a nice home theater setup. You can just get the bookshelves and center for the fronts and a pair of smaller speakers for the side surrounds.

See www.dolby.com for optimal room placement guidelines.

 

[SoCalAudioNewb]

Woah man. Putting a sub inside a cabinet is a sonic disaster. If you truly must you will want to use memory foam to line the area around it.

> Glad you called me out on that - I ignorantly thought "LFE from a sub is not directional, so I can put it anywhere without adversely effecting the sound".
> Can you elucidate what you mean by "sonic disaster"? Is it going to attenuate the sound, distort it, interfere with the spatial characteristics of the sound?
> Memory foam - is that to dampen vibration?

 

[lsiberian]

> Glad you called me out on that - I ignorantly thought "LFE from a sub is not directional, so I can put it anywhere without adversely effecting the sound".
> Can you elucidate what you mean by "sonic disaster"? Is it going to attenuate the sound, distort it, interfere with the spatial characteristics of the sound?
> Memory foam - is that to dampen vibration?

Memory foam is what Wmax suggests to help decouple the sub from the cabinet structure. By having it directly on the cabinet. It will create very bad resonances. Do you want to hear your tv cabinet or your sub.

Non direction at sub 80hz mostly, but not above that and you will be crossing over a 100hz in your budget range.

Subs are best placed in the corner typically for response, but this isn't always achievable for room look and feel. However sometimes it looks best in the corner. Worth a shot IMO. Then you increase the volume up and stop it just before it becomes localized. One thing you can do is put a nice plant or something on the sub in the corner. To improve the decor. This usually doesn't hurt anything. Just make sure it doesn't leak.

 

[Sounds Good]

i think your be happy with the energy set up... thats what i have used for about gesh.. maybe 6 years now... i love it.. i think it is a VERY good bang for buck set up. and they look great too; gloss black.

if the wify will let you double the budget to around $1000 that would open a LOT more doors... axiom and ascend are two off the top of my head they are great quality for a good value...