T

TRUCKGUYGMC23

Audioholic Intern
Hey Guys,


I have a quick question for you. I recently upgraded my receiver from a Pioneer VSX-412k to a Denon AVR-2105 (885). What a difference :) I have a pair of Klipsch SF-2's in the front and I noticed that when I upgraded I lost quite a bit of bass. I did not move the speakers at all, but on the Pioneer I had a Loudness/Midnight button which made the music more full in general and definately more bass. In fact in "stereo" mode and in "loudness" the SF-2's created such nice bass that I would turn the sub off. This isn't the case with the Denon. I noticed that most mid-higher end models do not have this loudness feature. Why is that? Don't get me wrong, the Denon sounds better all around. I am just curious why that feature is not widely used on the more expensive models.
 
toquemon

toquemon

Full Audioholic
TRUCKGUYGMC23 said:
Hey Guys,


I have a quick question for you. I recently upgraded my receiver from a Pioneer VSX-412k to a Denon AVR-2105 (885). What a difference :) I have a pair of Klipsch SF-2's in the front and I noticed that when I upgraded I lost quite a bit of bass. I did not move the speakers at all, but on the Pioneer I had a Loudness/Midnight button which made the music more full in general and definately more bass. In fact in "stereo" mode and in "loudness" the SF-2's created such nice bass that I would turn the sub off. This isn't the case with the Denon. I noticed that most mid-higher end models do not have this loudness feature. Why is that? Don't get me wrong, the Denon sounds better all around. I am just curious why that feature is not widely used on the more expensive models.
Yes, this is a very popular way to "improve" bass. Commonly, the loudness button is used when listening musc at low levels, why? because it adds artificially like 10db of more bass at certain frequencies, which can stress your amp at high volumes. The only thing that the loudness button does is to "color" the sound and this isn't a desirable thing because it distorts the main source. The sound isn't going to be "pure" if you want to look it this way.
 
furrycute

furrycute

Banned
Human hearing is not linear. We are less sensitive to bass at low volumes. Therefore the loudness button compensates for this "perceived" low bass by boosting bass frequencies. It works quite well at low volumes. At higher volumes I would turn it off.
 
T

TRUCKGUYGMC23

Audioholic Intern
I'm not sure if the "loudness" button being on is right or wrong. All I know is that is sounded good. I know that this hobby that we all have with home audio is to create a system that sounds good to the person building it. I like to listen to a stereo source in 2 channel mode without the sub being on. I got excellent bass response from the speakers without the subwoofer on when it was in loudness mode. 10dB for some reason made a difference. Would and equalizer improve bass response at all? What would be the best way to increase bass response besides cranking the bass all the way up on the receiver? Just curious how to tweak my system and any help would be appreciated. I know that my main speakers are capable of creating nice bass so there is no need to upgrade them. Thanks for your help!
 
rgriffin25

rgriffin25

Moderator
I hate to answer a question with a question but, I think we need a little more information.

Have you configured all the settings on your new receiver? i.e. selected the speaker size. Sometimes if the inital set-up isn't complete the receiver will have no idea on where to send the bass signal. So at this point it could think your main speakers are small, therefore it is redirecting all the frequences below 100hz to the subwoofer.

I really think the hardest part of installing a new receiver is getting all the internal settings adjusted correctly. (Thats why a lot of newer receivers are going to the auto set-up)

If you have adjusted all the settings try another route, you might like another setting better.
 
furrycute

furrycute

Banned
I don't know at which frequency that boost occurs. But I do know that engaging the loudness button does not give you the same sound as turning the bass tone control all the way up. An equalizer will definitely do the trick. But again I don't know the settings.
 
T

ttuedu123

Audiophyte
Man, I am having the same problem with th Loudness button thing. I just bought a Yamaha HTR5890 with 980 watts behind it, 140 watts per channel. I love this receiver except for the fact that the bass volume sucks. I have Cerwin vega Re-38 series speakers that put out 400 watts a piece. I have other cerwin vegas I use also but I cant get the bass to boom on these like my old model receiver did with the loudness button. This hightech receiver doesnt have that Loudness button or any other bass booster buttons to use. Awesome receiver but it missing the Loudness button or any bass booster button. Does anyone know of any newer model receiver that has this feature on it. I dont care what brand it is, Denon, Yamaha, Sony, whatever. I like to blast my cerwin vegas because they are powerful and sound awesome and with this high tech receiver, I can blast with it supe loud but the bass it real weak because I cant turn the bass up at all on this receiver. Any receiver options anyone can suggest would be helpful because I want a high powered digital receiver with the Loudness Button.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Man, I am having the same problem with th Loudness button thing. I just bought a Yamaha HTR5890 with 980 watts behind it, 140 watts per channel. I love this receiver except for the fact that the bass volume sucks. I have Cerwin vega Re-38 series speakers that put out 400 watts a piece. I have other cerwin vegas I use also but I cant get the bass to boom on these like my old model receiver did with the loudness button. This hightech receiver doesnt have that Loudness button or any other bass booster buttons to use. Awesome receiver but it missing the Loudness button or any bass booster button. Does anyone know of any newer model receiver that has this feature on it. I dont care what brand it is, Denon, Yamaha, Sony, whatever. I like to blast my cerwin vegas because they are powerful and sound awesome and with this high tech receiver, I can blast with it supe loud but the bass it real weak because I cant turn the bass up at all on this receiver. Any receiver options anyone can suggest would be helpful because I want a high powered digital receiver with the Loudness Button.

I wouldn't blame your receiver for any perceived lack of bass output. It simply amplifies the program material as it is received. Plus, your speakers do not "put out" 400 watts. They don't put out any wattage whatsoever. That 400 watt rating is simply the power draw limitation from the amplifier, as set by the manufacturer. It means absolutely nothing, with regards to how loud they will play.

As previously described, the "loudness" button is primarily meant to boost a range of bass frequencies when listening at low volume. If you were to use such a feature when you have the volume cranked, it's an abuse of the receiver's amplifier section and will probably shorten its life span.

If you want loud bass, well out of proportion to the higher frequencies, use a subwoofer - a very, very good subwoofer.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't know at which frequency that boost occurs. But I do know that engaging the loudness button does not give you the same sound as turning the bass tone control all the way up. An equalizer will definitely do the trick. But again I don't know the settings.
He can't use and equalizer with this receiver as their is no tape monitor loop. That would mean that he would have to reconnect the equalizer everytime he changes inputs. :)
 
C

Codifus

Junior Audioholic
I'm not sure if the "loudness" button being on is right or wrong. All I know is that is sounded good. I know that this hobby that we all have with home audio is to create a system that sounds good to the person building it. I like to listen to a stereo source in 2 channel mode without the sub being on. I got excellent bass response from the speakers without the subwoofer on when it was in loudness mode. 10dB for some reason made a difference. Would and equalizer improve bass response at all? What would be the best way to increase bass response besides cranking the bass all the way up on the receiver? Just curious how to tweak my system and any help would be appreciated. I know that my main speakers are capable of creating nice bass so there is no need to upgrade them. Thanks for your help!
I think another reason that loudness is omitted is to keep the audio circuitry as un-cluttered a possible, so the amp can deliver the cleanest signal to the speakers. This is the same reason that most EQs have disappeared as well, although digital EQs can work and do a far better job with less distortion.

I would advise that you re-position your main speakers in your listening room to get the right bass. It takes some time, and leave all your tone controls on flat, or off. When you do, it wont sound like the loudness button, but it will sound better. Also, if you like deep bass (30 Hz and below), like me, then I hope your speakers have spiked feet, because they need to stand very still when pushing out those deep notes:D

CD
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hey Guys,


I have a quick question for you. I recently upgraded my receiver from a Pioneer VSX-412k to a Denon AVR-2105 (885). What a difference :) I have a pair of Klipsch SF-2's in the front and I noticed that when I upgraded I lost quite a bit of bass. I did not move the speakers at all, but on the Pioneer I had a Loudness/Midnight button which made the music more full in general and definately more bass. In fact in "stereo" mode and in "loudness" the SF-2's created such nice bass that I would turn the sub off. This isn't the case with the Denon. I noticed that most mid-higher end models do not have this loudness feature. Why is that? Don't get me wrong, the Denon sounds better all around. I am just curious why that feature is not widely used on the more expensive models.
On good speakers the loudness button always sounded wrong. However a lot of speakers are not properly diffraction/step compensated for the 6 db roll off below about 600 Hz in most speakers. This is often done to make them an easy load for receivers. Step compensation drops the impedance and makes a speaker a more difficult load using passive crossovers.

The loudness button was a crude diffraction compensator for many speakers.

I would be far from certain a sub will solve your problem, as I suspect your problem is above sub range. However a sub may mask it somewhat.

I suspect your receiver has an equalizer if your look. If that receiver has Audyssey that might do the trick.

Otherwise go into your Eq menu and add a lift of 6 db per octave starting around 500 to 600 Hz all the way to around 80 Hz. If you go lower than that you might damage your bass drivers.

If that does not do the trick, it is time to speaker shop.

Good speakers do not sound bass shy without a sub or equalizer at reasonable listening levels. In my book Klipsch speakers are not in that category.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
He can't use and equalizer with this receiver as their is no tape monitor loop. That would mean that he would have to reconnect the equalizer everytime he changes inputs. :)
are you talking to that baned member:p
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
If you've gotten accustomed to a smiley curve

by using your loudness control for years, you may have to 'un-learn' that way of listening. Fortunately, that is easy, just listen to a well calibrated system for extended time. Calibrating your system for ideal response is a little more difficult, and as Dr Mark said, may necessitate upgrades.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with enjoying a smiley curve on your music, although it may be a sin to dogmatic objectivists. Strictly speaking, it's not accurate, after all. It's ultimately your choice wheather or not to accept what statistics indicate you would likely enjoy, vs what your ears are telling you in real time (which, as mentioned above, may reflect personal preference, built in from prior exposure to music with a loudness curve rather than flat response). There is no right or wrong way to enjoy music. When the artist visits to berate you for distorting their art, I'll change my mind.

I feel for your situaiton. My first stereo receiver was a Yamaha which had variable loudness, which, from an amp safety perspective, was better than typical loudness controls because it cut the midrange rather than boosting the bass and treble; plus it was 'dial-a-smiley' over a range of midrange cut, rather than being one fixed setting on or off. I was very used to it, so much so that when I got gear that lacked it I ended up using outboard processors to regain the ability (primarily a BBE sonic maximizer, which does some other phasey things, but used it primarily to boost bass and treble frequencies when listening at low volumes to get the 'smiley' curve back). Since then I've gotten speakers which don't require eq'ing to sound properly phat, but I still have a Yamaha with the loudness feature in a bedroom, and still use the BBE for low grade bootlegs and such to spice them up.

It doesn't look like an outboard eq or processor is really an option given your receiver. Try what others have suggested (adjusting any onboard eq settings, audyssey).


[Oh, ****, just realized this thread is long dead, sorry for the bump!]
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The loudness button, or more accurately, 'Loudness compensation' button, was included to make up for the human ear's lack of sensitivity at low SPL, not for anything to do with speaker design. In the '50s, when this was first used, speaker design was hardly at the current level and what was measured was next to nothing compared with today. The impedance of most speakers wasn't much of a problem for most amps unless more than one was connected in parallel. Tube amps have an output transformer to deal with the load but if a receiver is made for an 8 Ohm load and sees 4 Ohms, it's not going to blow up. Regardless, at 80dB, we'll never hear the full range as well as at 90dB or more, so they came up with a circuit that approximated the frequency response at higher levels. On many receivers, the loudness circuit was ineffective after the volume control reached the mid point.

Definitely hard to give it up after so long when the new receiver doesn't have it. It wasn't accurate but it has become in-grained.
 
C

Codifus

Junior Audioholic
Put on a frown

by using your loudness control for years, you may have to 'un-learn' that way of listening. Fortunately, that is easy, just listen to a well calibrated system for extended time........
I have another suggestion to un-learn the smiley curve that may be quicker: turn the smiley upside down.

Turn your treble and bass controls to -10 or however negative they may go. Of course, loudness is off. Force yourself to listen in that mode for a while. You will be surprised to find how quickly you will appreciate hearing music with everything set to flat again.:)

CD
 
F

floridaswimming

Audiophyte
I find that Loudness buttons are addicting. It provides an initial adrenaline rush and makes you go "ooh," but it's tiresome after a while. My advice is to leave it off for a while, and see if your ears don't adjust--even at low volume. Once you go down the Loudness path it's like there's never enough bass--like dope, your ears want more of it and there's never enough. Just my two cents.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Just to beat a dead horse, on my pioneer elite the setting is called "midnight loudness", and that is to be used to compensate at low listening volumes when others may be trying to sleep. Turn it off for music.
 
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sbk510

Audiophyte
Here's the theory...surprised no one posted this yet.

google "fletcher-munson curves"
 
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