Looking to upgrade HT. Head spinning.

[delraypete]

Hi all, I just moved into a new house, I've been shopping for upgrades to my HT system for a few months, and I'm basically just as confused by all of the options as when I started. Primarily, receivers. I usually shop the heck out of electronics and by now have it figured out, but everytime I go online for this I just can't whittle down my list. I'm not a technical guy, so a lot of the measurables beyond wattage I don't really comprehend. However I am very attuned to high quality sound and want to get as close to audiophile as I can. I'd like to be impressed. HTIB or sound bars are not remotely an option, obviously. My current equipment includes: Harman Kardon AVR520 receiver (10 y/o), Pioneer CS-88 fronts (40+ y/o), Polk R15's rears and center (8+ y/o), and a Polk PSW10 sub. This is obviously some dated equipment and I'm ready to upgrade. I'm OK with the sub - I realize it's a basic model, but seems to do well by me. Realize it's something I may want to upgrade once I upgrade other components, but that will be last.

The room this is going in is 13'x27'. A/V equipment will go in built-in area shown in pics. The surround is hollow plywood construction as much as I can tell. Sub fits perfectly in niche to left of built-ins on the floor. Carpet floor over concrete. Floor to ceiling windows to left are impact glass.

View towards back of room. Planning on installing rears above back of seating area.

Current budget: $1500.

My priority list is as follows and I'd love some advice as to what products to pursue based on what I know and what I'm looking for:

1. New receiver. Need to step up to the HDMI game and tired of jury rigging work-arounds for my outdated receiver. Want to get something well regarded, but do not need 7.1 or multi-room options. Thinking I will get Sonos for multi-room as the future budget allows. Also not focused on online apps as I'd rather operate those via another device. I am not an Apple person, so Airplay, etc, is worthless to me. Only need MAX 5 HDMI inputs. Started considering the Sony STR-DN1030 due to rave reviews, but subsequent research has scared me off. The Marantz 1403 is basic and seems to be well regarded, I just don't want to under power and the wattage rating scares me, despite reviews that say to disregard it. As far as in store listening is concerned, my favorite was the Elite SC-63 paired with the Speakercraft MT Two's that I was considering at the time and that was the best configuration I could find in the test room, including MUCH higher end tower speakers. Bad news is I don't think I'm up to an in-wall install right now and I'm also not sure that the conditions are optimal without additional inside-wall materials that add to cost and difficulty. By now it must be clear how confused I am.

2. Front and center speakers. I've decided to go with some good bookshelf L/R speakers to go where the CS-88's are now. Really no clue what models to pursue. Might come down to another in store visit to see what sounds good to me. The challenge with the center is where to put it. Won't fit on counter in front if TV, so is mounting on wall behind TV a viable option? Build a stand behind the TV?

3. Rears. 99% settled on in-ceilings because of architectural limitations but also because I'm tired of running wires along the floors and speakers in middle of the room. I've read everything from people raving about Speakercraft, Polk, and B&W to people saying that they have hi-end speakers and recently got $60 Monoprice in-ceilings for a friend and that there's really nothing more that anyone could ever need.

Final question - how do I best match speakers with my various requirements?

Thanks in advance and let me know if more info is needed!

 

[BMXTRIX]

1. New receiver. Need to step up to the HDMI game and tired of jury rigging work-arounds for my outdated receiver. Want to get something well regarded, but do not need 7.1 or multi-room options. Thinking I will get Sonos for multi-room as the future budget allows. Also not focused on online apps as I'd rather operate those via another device. I am not an Apple person, so Airplay, etc, is worthless to me. Only need MAX 5 HDMI inputs. Started considering the Sony STR-DN1030 due to rave reviews, but subsequent research has scared me off. The Marantz 1403 is basic and seems to be well regarded, I just don't want to under power and the wattage rating scares me, despite reviews that say to disregard it. As far as in store listening is concerned, my favorite was the Elite SC-63 paired with the Speakercraft MT Two's that I was considering at the time and that was the best configuration I could find in the test room, including MUCH higher end tower speakers. Bad news is I don't think I'm up to an in-wall install right now and I'm also not sure that the conditions are optimal without additional inside-wall materials that add to cost and difficulty. By now it must be clear how confused I am.

If it were me I would be looking at a receiver that has pre-outs available on it so I could add an external amplifier at a later point if I wanted more power. Yamaha has their 890 which offers full 7.1 preouts (use what you want), or the Marantz 1403 offers 2.1 preouts which is enough for a stereo amplifier for your main left/right speakers. If you have preouts on a decent A/V receiver, then you have plenty of room to add as much power as you want later.

2. Front and center speakers. I've decided to go with some good bookshelf L/R speakers to go where the CS-88's are now. Really no clue what models to pursue. Might come down to another in store visit to see what sounds good to me. The challenge with the center is where to put it. Won't fit on counter in front if TV, so is mounting on wall behind TV a viable option? Build a stand behind the TV?

Now, I'm not going to say how to do things, but there is no way in the world I would keep the speakers where they are. They are to close to the TV and far to close to each other for good stereo imaging in your long skinny room. That nook was built for a TV, and the TV you have in there right now is way to small. I would be putting speakers towards the corners on speaker stands to open up the stereo imaging and I would pick up a cheap wall mount from Monoprice for your TV to raise the TV up some and to allow for a center channel to be placed on the shelf under the TV. Float the TV and get the center where it should be... and start saving for a 65" or larger display.

3. Rears. 99% settled on in-ceilings because of architectural limitations but also because I'm tired of running wires along the floors and speakers in middle of the room. I've read everything from people raving about Speakercraft, Polk, and B&W to people saying that they have hi-end speakers and recently got $60 Monoprice in-ceilings for a friend and that there's really nothing more that anyone could ever need.

I've replaced multi-hundred dollar speakers with Monoprice models and I agree that they are very good. They are exclusively what I have used in my home where I have in-wall/ceiling speakers and I've been very happy with them. Keep in mind any rooms above a ceiling speaker installation will hear pretty much everything.

Final question - how do I best match speakers with my various requirements?

I would shoot to match the brand for the front speakers if possible. The surrounds won't impact as much as the front speakers, so that is where you want your real focus to be. You can buy cheap surrounds then upgrade them later if you want, but spending less on the front speakers to not be happy isn't a good thing to do.

 

[fmw]

If you are going to use a powered subwoofer, every AV receiver on the market has enough power to handle everything else in a room the size of yours. Same goes if you are not going to use a sub at all. You might get concerned if you have to power an unpowered sub but probably not. Could you put the center channel behind the cabinet door and simply open it when you are using the system? You might also put it on top of the cabinet and aim the tweeter at the seating position. Finally, I agree that your main speaker placement is not good. You need to buy some speaker stands and put them about 8 feet apart. There is an audible benefit to matching the three front speakers. The surrounds don't matter because they deal just with sound effects. Sound effects that transition from surround to main might even benefit from a different timbre to enhance the motion effect. The surrounds, however, should be a matching pair of something like the in-wall speakers you are planning to buy. Good luck with the upgrade.

 

[delraypete]

Now, I'm not going to say how to do things, but there is no way in the world I would keep the speakers where they are. They are to close to the TV and far to close to each other for good stereo imaging in your long skinny room. That nook was built for a TV, and the TV you have in there right now is way to small. I would be putting speakers towards the corners on speaker stands to open up the stereo imaging and I would pick up a cheap wall mount from Monoprice for your TV to raise the TV up some and to allow for a center channel to be placed on the shelf under the TV. Float the TV and get the center where it should be... and start saving for a 65" or larger display.

Thanks BMXTRIX. Valid point on the imaging. And I realize my budget is probably the biggest challenge here, just trying to maximize it. The old champagne taste on a beer budget dilemma. Might have to phase my purchases, but I also won't really be able to save towards this anymore with the purchase of the new home that needs a lot of other things. Won't bore you with the details.

The TV is a 50" plasma in what I consider an unfortunately huge and deep nook. I wanted to avoid making the TV any higher and the nook is really deep and I feel like a wall mount option would be awkward. I suppose it could be telescoped out? Hiding wires would be a problem. I'll get dimensions tonight. To replace it with the LED I'd like (because of all the daytime light and glare in the room) it will at least double my budget. I suppose there's always Vizio, but I don't have confidence in their products. I'd really need to go with one that is rated for fighting glare. LG is the leader there right now, I believe.

I just threw the floor speakers up there to get them out of the way, they're not even hooked up and I want to use them in a 2 channel set up in my living room. My plan was to put much smaller book shelf speakers at the edges of that opening. My original plan was to put in Speakercraft MT Two's in the narrow columns on either side of the nook, but I'm afraid the install would be too complex and require rear housings, so I'm resigning to book shelves. But I take your suggestion seriously. Might need to consider new towers with a 7 month old just starting to move around the floors.

 

[delraypete]

Could you put the center channel behind the cabinet door and simply open it when you are using the system?

No can do as it would need to be open most of the time, which is a problem with my 7 month old who is just starting to move around. I thought about changing the doors somehow, maybe cutting out the middle panel and installing metal grates, but they're nice, big cabinets and I'm not sure about tearing them up. But might need to consider that again if not just for the ability to operate the AVR via remote (my Xbox controller works through the doors, however.)

Good luck with the upgrade.

Thanks!

 

[delraypete]

So I went to Magnolia today and I'm liking the B&W 684 towers. Combo of quality and price. Nice bookshelves (B&W, Def. Tech, Energy) basically didn't compare. I realize the salesman was steering me towards their higher end speakers before we even brought the receiver into the discussion. So before I pull the trigger on something like these, what would anyone's opinion be for the "minimum" receiver that I should pair speakers like these with to get the most out of them? Based on my limited budget, I need to make sure I'm not going to need to buy a $1000 receiver plus the minimum $425 center, which by themselves would be the total of my budget to begin with. I liked the Energy CF-50's, but they didn't compare to the B&W's for clarity and balance. But I need to be realize that the Energys would also sound great in my house. It's just tough to pull the trigger on the lesser option.

 

[BMXTRIX]

You obviously don't need to raise the TV a ton or have it 'centered' in the space, but you can use any wall mount and then build it out with 2x4s to hang the TV from. I actually did this in my bedroom with my TV that I wanted to have flush with the front of a built-in I installed. Granted the built-in is only 12" deep, but it worked out nicely. I was thinking you may want to do something similar. I've got a photo of the TV in this thread:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/electronic-house-showcase-ce-pro-installation-center/83272-so-here-we-go-24-v-zones-w-10-sources.html

A/V upgrades in a new home are always a challenge and certainly must be balanced against the other costs you have to incur with the home. I would listen to the other guys about your multitude of choices in speakers, but I would make sure that you are buying for a 20 year ownership strategy in any way that you can. Don't buy something you are going to want to replace in 3 or 4 years if you can avoid it. If you intend to keep the house for (nearly) ever, then buy based upon that concept and install it based upon that concept. It it takes a bit longer, then it'll really be worth it in the long run.

 

[delraypete]

After some soul searching (lol) over the weekend I've decided it just makes more sense to go with the much more budget and existing layout friendly bookshelf speakers. I can get the bookshelves 6'6" apart, on center, at the edges of the nook opening and I think this will have to suffice until I don't have little ones crawling around grabbing everything in sight. Plus, the wife and I agree we want it to look as clean as possible (i.e. not adding big towers in front of the built-ins.

I'm considering the B&W 685B with a HTM61 center. The center is more future proof and the bookshelves can always be used elsewhere down the road. Are there any other bookshelves anyone else can recommend that I should pit against the 685s to find my preference? Def.Tech., Energy, PSB, Kef?

Also, found a great deal on the Denon 2312ci (scratch and dent) and think I might pull the trigger on that. Objections?

 

[delraypete]

Ok, kind of talking to myself here, but I'm just throwing out my thoughts. I've read so much positive feedback on the KEF Q300, I'm really leaning towards those now with a Q600C. Also, the price on A4L can't be beat ($970+tax). Full retail might be pushing it as I also need to fit in a respectable receiver ($1500 budget). I was reconsidering my listening experience with the 685Bs (powered by a SC-60) and I remember there being a bunch or resonance, or whatever you would call distracting background noise, when the salesman had them turned up during a live jazz guitar and vocal song. Maybe it was just a bad speaker/receiver match or not sure if he was just trying to steer me towards a more expensive speaker, but...it became pretty clear that the 684 was the way to go before I had to leave to tend to an emergency. I really don't want to get towers right now as they do not fit well in my room set-up. I've read mixed reviews about A4L, but it seems for the most part people had their purchases supported and it worked out in the end (most complaints seemed to be about DOA receivers and having to pay for shipping both ways). Anyone with experience with these speakers and/or vendor please chime in! And any receiver recommendations are welcome!

Update: I bought the KEFs! So the receiver info is front and center now. And wire and connector recommendations too.