looking to upgrade 3-4 ways

L

live vinyl

Enthusiast
New to the threads - I have a vintage onkyo setup M-5140 (105 wpc), p-3160 and original 3- way floors. Looking to upgrade speakers. I like the warm sound as my music of choice is vinyl. My opportunity to listen to new speakers is slim. Looking for something under 1k a pair. I listened to the following speakers:

definitive - like I had cotton in my ears
energy - muddled mid range
martin logan - nice sound but no 3-ways
klipsch - too raspy and harsh
polk - too weak

curious about jbl studio line or other recommendations.

Would appreciate any info.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
If you like the ML get it. You don't have to have a three way to have a great speaker.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
I agree with TLS and if you're worried about not getting enough bass from the ML then it's time to start saving for a good quality internet direct (Hsu, SVS, Rythmik etc) subwoofer. Also bear in mind that the listening rooms themselves, and placement in the rooms, and the way that the salesman setup the speakers can make a huge difference. Salesmen often try to push a brand that offers the best commission or some sort of spiff (manufacturer kickbacks to the salesman) so be sure to double check that the EQ hasn't been played with. There is a fair chance that any of them will sound different in your listening room. That's why you need to make sure that you have a reasonable period to try them at home and return them if you don't like how they sound once you get them home.
 
L

live vinyl

Enthusiast
Good Advice

Thanks for helping out - Although I liked the sound on the ML's they lacked the bottom end the 3ways have. What towers can you recommend I listen to under 1k pair. The reason I mentioned the jbl's is I found a pair under 1k and didnt know if they were worth a shot.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
3 way has nothing to do with it; it is about how the speakers in question are designed. Regardless of how many drivers the speaker has, it is a single system. Two different speakers designed with different goals in mind are difficult to compare aside from one does what you want and the other does not.
 
L

live vinyl

Enthusiast
I've owned this system for 30 years so I am definitely a novice when it comes to speaker technology. I guess to state the purpose of the speaker and the environment in which it will be placed is a better way to go about finding out what type of speaker would be best.

I have a 15 x 15 hardwood floor area. The system is strictly for music (all types). I only have about 1k to upgrade the speakers. I have heard good things about my older Onkyo system so I am looking for a pair or two pair of speakers that would work well in this environment.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
In a room that size you may be better off going with decent quality 2-way bookshelves and a decent subwoofer with high level inputs. There are two reasons for towers 1) higher volume for a large room, 2) extended bass. A sub generally does bass better with less strain on your amp.

I'd also plan on throwing an area rug down on that floor to reduce reflections.
 
L

live vinyl

Enthusiast
I have the area rug already. Having the m-5140 I noticed I have 2 channels with 4 speaker lines. Can I use two lines for bookshelfs and the other channel for a passive sub?
On an unrelated note - I am beginning to notice that the true quality of sound is limited by the reproduction and source of the music. i.e vinyl, cd, and the people who reproduce it. I have noticed a real difference in the vinyl moreso the cd's. I prefer live albums because of the content. Have you noticed a recording company that stands out with their reporductions?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I have the area rug already. Having the m-5140 I noticed I have 2 channels with 4 speaker lines. Can I use two lines for bookshelfs and the other channel for a passive sub?
On an unrelated note - I am beginning to notice that the true quality of sound is limited by the reproduction and source of the music. i.e vinyl, cd, and the people who reproduce it. I have noticed a real difference in the vinyl moreso the cd's. I prefer live albums because of the content. Have you noticed a recording company that stands out with their reporductions?
That plan will not work. First A & B speakers use the same power amps, so your plan will drop he impedance to your amps too low and damage them. Passive subs will have no crossover, so your sub will be driven full range.

To integrate a sub with a two channel system that has no bass management (pretty much all) you need a pre amp/power amp combination. Then you take out the preamp outputs to the power amp and with a Y connector take one side of the Ys to your power amp, and the other to a 2/1 buffer amp and then to either a powered sub with crossover or an external crossover and another power amp to power a passive sub.

If you can get a powered sub with left and right inputs it will do the buffering for you and you can connect with Y connectors to your power amp and to the powered sub.

If you don't want this hassle, which by the way is not as complicated as it may at first seem, then you need a multichannel receiver, that has bass management. Of course you would only use the left and right speaker outputs, and connect to a powered sub via the LFE output.

You should note however this will not be the same as receiver bass management unless you use two way electronic crossovers. With just a low pass crossover your left and right speakers will run full range.

Unfortunately I think there should be an abundance of 2.1 receivers with bass management and preamp set up similarly, but for reasons I fail to understand there are not. If there were, that would be your solution. I suppose in modern manufacture it is cheaper to build a lot of receivers with 5 amps and have customers like you not use three of the two amps.

If I were in charge of a manufacturing line, the first thing I would do is make a slim elegant AV 2.1 pre/pro and a 2.1 AV receiver, with a smaller profile than current offerings.

But then again, if I were in charge an awful lot of things would be done differently from the way they are done now and everybody would be the better for it.

As far as recordings, vinyl has always had a wide variation in quality. In the classical arena CDs are pretty much uniformly of high quality. I note a lot of complaints from the pop fraternity however.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I suggest getting an active sub not a passive one. I don't suggest powering your sub off a receiver. You can certainly replace the amp and probably be okay, but you could also look at upgrading too. That's up to you. I suggest you upgrade. Subwoofers have really advanced in the last 10 years.
 
L

live vinyl

Enthusiast
So you are basically managing two amps with the pre-amp through the y-connector. I have the onkyo P-3160 preamp that came with the system. Is this sufficient? If so, can you recommend a powered sub with l/r inputs? Would this essentially give me the ability to have 4 bookshelfs from the power amp and have a sub for the low end of the spectrum?
 
L

live vinyl

Enthusiast
I only have about 1k so I am trying to focus on one component at a time and upgrade what is most important first. My speakers are not in the best of shape but my amp and pre-amp are a good combo for there age according to the talk.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I only have about 1k so I am trying to focus on one component at a time and upgrade what is most important first. My speakers are not in the best of shape but my amp and pre-amp are a good combo for there age according to the talk.
Can you list all the equipment you have? I think you have a lot of old legacy equipment that is inherently not easily made compatible with the way things are now. You can use it is you pick a workaround I suggest. This takes some understanding and effort in your part. However you will not do it for $1000 and can not do it one piece at a time. At a minimum you need new speakers, and an active sub with left and right inputs, so you don't have the cost of a buffer amp. If you use bookshelves then you should use a two way active crossover.

I know you don't want to hear this, but it will be cheaper to get a new receiver speakers and sub. If you go this route get a receiver with pre outs so you can use your legacy power amp to power your speakers.

You can use legacy equipment, but you need to know what you are doing.

This is a legacy system I use on the first level of our home, that uses the first option I gave you. Pre/amp, Y to power amp and crossovers and two subs. It works very well, but then I have accumulated lots of legacy gear over the years.

 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
TLS' suggest is as always excellent but I think adding a modern powered subwoofer is being made to sound more complicated than it needs to be. As long as the sub has high level inputs you can run the speaker wires from the amp to the high level inputs and then from the high level outputs to the sub. The sub's built-in crossover will play the bass part and send the rest on to the speakers. If the OP had a huge room that might complicate sub placement but he has a 15x15' room. Sure he'll need to use a SPL meter to balance the sub output with the speakers' output but that's not rocket science. Of course a modern AV receiver automates all of that but he has older gear. Of course I agree with TLS that a modern AV receiver would probably be a good investment.
 
L

live vinyl

Enthusiast
Had a chance to listen to some Dahli and Totem bookshelfs to day. Made me realize how bad my setup was. Here is a list of equipment I have. After talking with you maybe I should use the pioneer in the audio room and bup out the P-3160.

Audio room - Onkyo T4120, P-3160, M-5140, DK-1800; Sony WE-805, TTusb10 turntable
Living room - Onkyo TXSR600 with onkyo surrounds and sub; Denon DVD-900; Pioneer VSX-D812-K
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Get a sub with RCA inputs and outputs.
From the pre-amp feed the RCA outputs into the sub.
Feed the outputs from the sub to your amp.
Set the crossover on your sub to 80hz.

You should have no trouble adding a sub to this setup. Especially a 1000 dollar one. Since it's a music setup I recommend a sealed sub.
SB12-NSD - SVS

Is my recommendation.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Get a sub with RCA inputs and outputs.
From the pre-amp feed the RCA outputs into the sub.
Feed the outputs from the sub to your amp.
Set the crossover on your sub to 80hz.

You should have no trouble adding a sub to this setup. Especially a 1000 dollar one. Since it's a music setup I recommend a sealed sub.
SB12-NSD - SVS

Is my recommendation.
I agree for a pure music setup a sealed sub is the way to go. I'm less fond of them for movies but they sound really great for music.

Something that you won't be able to listen to locally are Ascend Acoustics speakers. Their CMT-340SE are wonderful $600 speakers and their $800-1200 (depending on tweeter option and finish) Sierra-1 look as good as they sound.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I agree for a pure music setup a sealed sub is the way to go. I'm less fond of them for movies but they sound really great for music.

Something that you won't be able to listen to locally are Ascend Acoustics speakers. Their CMT-340SE are wonderful $600 speakers and their $800-1200 (depending on tweeter option and finish) Sierra-1 look as good as they sound.
The Ascends are nice. he could get the monitor pair for his audio setup. A pair of the 170s with an SB12-NSD would be a great listening room setup.
 
L

live vinyl

Enthusiast
I have a chance to listen to Triton 2 and JL sub tomorrow. Are these worth listening too compared to what you recommended? Are you refering to the Monitor rx-6 series? I really appreciate all the info! Its alot to take in when you start climbing out of the basement:)
 
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