Looking for Speaker Recommendations $10,000 - $12,000 Purchase Range Max [Used and/or Demo]

[GA Audiophile]

Looking at ~ $20k speakers new since I want to buy used or demo. Mainly stream. Receiver is McIntosh MAC7200 [200 wpc] and current speakers are ML Theos. Not changing receiver. WAF is a factor. Man Cave is about 280 SF. Anybody have any experience with Focal Sopra 2 or Fyne 703SP? Any recommendations? I am 70 yo so my high frequency hearing is likely shot - LOL - but I'm good with openness, clarity and soundstage, etc. Thank you ALL for any comments.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

RBH, KEF, Revel, Focal, Dynaudio, Monitor Audio, Legacy Audio. If you can find the B&W 802D2 used for less than $8K, would be cool also.

I bought my B&W 802D2 brand new for $12K and sold it about a year later for $10K. I should have just kept them for the aesthetics alone.

 

[Cos]

Before I settled on my Persona I did spend a great deal of time demo'ing the Sopra 2. Amazing speakers. I was looking on the used market and almost pulled the trigger on multiple occaisions. Almost secured a pair for $8500, but was a day late and dollar short.

They are a little power hungry, but given that your McIntosh amp is rated 2, 4 or 8 ohms you should be fine, the Sopra are rated at 91 sensitivity and dip to a low of 3 ohms. Your room size is simmilar to my two channel room. Those speakers are deceptively large. They are WAF approved!

 

[Verdinut]

Before I settled on my Persona I did spend a great deal of time demo'ing the Sopra 2. Amazing speakers. I was looking on the used market and almost pulled the trigger on multiple occaisions. Almost secured a pair for $8500, but was a day late and dollar short.

They are a little power hungry, but given that your McIntosh amp is rated 2, 4 or 8 ohms you should be fine, the Sopra are rated at 91 sensitivity and dip to a low of 3 ohms. Your room size is simmilar to my two channel room. Those speakers are deceptively large. They are WAF approved!

IMO, a speaker with a swinging impedance value is not a good match for any tube amp, McIntosh brand included. Tube amp technology is compatible with speakers which have a more stable impedance, hence the reason for which they all have output impedance taps .

In recent years more frequently than ever before, we see badly built speakers with poorly designed drivers and passive crossovers, and there is no valid reason for such crappy stuff. A competent engineer can correct the problem when designing such product before it is released in the market. That situation was uncommon in the last century.

 

[shadyJ]

There are new speakers in that price range that are so good I wouldn't even bother with used. Persisten R7t, PSB Synchrony T800, Canton Reference 7, Monitor Audio Platinum, RBH Unrivaled, Revel PerformaBe, Kef Reference, etc. Why risk anything in the used market? All of these speakers are extremely good and within your budget new.

 

[Cos]

IMO, a speaker with a swinging impedance value is not a good match for any tube amp, McIntosh brand included. Tube amp technology is compatible with speakers which have a more stable impedance, hence the reason for which they all have output impedance taps .

In recent years more frequently than ever before, we see badly built speakers with poorly designed drivers and passive crossovers, and there is no valid reason for such crappy stuff. A competent engineer can correct the problem when designing such product before it is released in the market. That situation was uncommon in the last century.

I didn't think the MAC7200 uses tube amplification, it shows as a solid-state amp from the reviews.

 

[Verdinut]

I didn't think the MAC7200 uses tube amplification, it shows as a solid-state amp from the reviews.

That solid state 7200 is equipped with an output transformer (autoformer) and that makes it entirely similar to a tube amp. As a matter of fact, it has output speaker impedance taps. It definitely is not designed to drive speakers with large impedance variations. Also, because of the transformer, it has a rather high output resistance and a low damping factor. Some speakers require an amplifier with a high damping factor which you get with a real solid state amp without an output transformer.

McIntosh MA7200 Integrated Amplifier

Offering 200 Watts per channel and 14 total inputs, the space-saving MA7200 Integrated Amplifier can easily become the core of your 2-channel home audio system.

www.mcintoshlabs.com

McIntosh Text: The MA7200 is full of other McIntosh technologies including Autoformers™ to deliver the full 200 Watts to each of your speakers regardless of their impedance, Power Guard®, Sentry Monitor™, Home Theater PassThru, bass and treble tone controls, High Drive headphone amplifier with Headphone Crossfeed Director (HXD®), and gold-plated speaker binding posts.

 

[Cos]

That solid state 7200 is equipped with an output transformer (autoformer) and that makes it entirely similar to a tube amp. As a matter of fact, it has output speaker impedance taps. It definitely is not designed to drive speakers with large impedance variations. Also, because of the transformer, it has a rather high output resistance and a low damping factor. Some speakers require an amplifier with a high damping factor which you get with a real solid state amp without an output transformer.

McIntosh MA7200 Integrated Amplifier

Offering 200 Watts per channel and 14 total inputs, the space-saving MA7200 Integrated Amplifier can easily become the core of your 2-channel home audio system.

www.mcintoshlabs.com

McIntosh Text: The MA7200 is full of other McIntosh technologies including Autoformers™ to deliver the full 200 Watts to each of your speakers regardless of their impedance, Power Guard®, Sentry Monitor™, Home Theater PassThru, bass and treble tone controls, High Drive headphone amplifier with Headphone Crossfeed Director (HXD®), and gold-plated speaker binding posts.

Well I learned something new today, it is confusing as the last part of it states it can drive your speakers regardless of impedance.

 

[Verdinut]

Well I learned something new today, it is confusing as the last part of it states it can drive your speakers regardless of impedance.

It's the common marketing bullshit.

 

[Cos]

It's the common marketing bullshit.

So solid state, uses their autoformer makes it act like a tube amp, seems like the only thing it will add is distortion lol. I am not technical, but does value does the autoformer even add then?

Edit: wow I Just went down a rabbit hole googling that question....

 

[Verdinut]

So solid state, uses their autoformer makes it act like a tube amp, seems like the only thing it will add is distortion lol. I am not technical, but does value does the autoformer even add then?

Well, that's the problem. It doesn't necessarily add distortion but it does not improve performance. If you want tight bass with any speaker, you want to avoid the use of an output transformer. This transformer is a must with an amp with tubes in the output stage, but in my opinion a real disadvantage for a solid state amp.

For the 7200 McIntosh state a damping factor of >40. Solid state amps usually have a DF of over 100 and some have a DF higher than 1000. A loudspeaker with a low Q (high magnet to moving mass weight ratio doesn't need a high damping whereas the high Q speaker will need a higher DF to respond to an amplifier's signal without overshooting.

 

[TLS Guy]

I didn't think the MAC7200 uses tube amplification, it shows as a solid-state amp from the reviews.

No, it is not a tube amp. But most Mac amps use autotransformers and are not direct coupled. An auto transformer is a single coil on an iron core with taps. Their use is controversial. The idea is to give not only DC offset protection which it does, by shunting DC to ground as the transformer is massive with very thick gauge wire in the transformer coil. The main purpose is to allow the amp to produce the same full power into four, eight and 16 ohm loads. The caveat is that the correct tap must be selected for the speaker in use. This means that you have to know the actual impedance of the speaker. As we all know, speaker manufacturers lie more often than not. So you need to have third party measurements to know the true impedance of the speaker in the major power band. If you don't know then you need to get a Dayton speaker tester and measure it yourself. If the manufacturer says the speaker is 8 ohms when in fact it is 4, then if you use the 8 ohm tap you will only get half the power unless you switch it to the 4 ohm tap.

There has been the issue of the resistance of the winding of these autotransformers as if it is on the high side, then the output will tend to follow the impedance curve of the connected speaker. This is the curse of tube amps. However, the damping factor of the unit in question here is 40, indicating an adequately low source resistance.

These auto transformers in order to have adequately low source resistance are massive, heavy and very expensive. Mcintosh seem to have an objection to speaker protection circuits, which I think is nonsense. So they rely on the low resistance of the auto transformer wiring to shunt any DC offset to ground and destroy the output devices of the channel in question rather than the woofer in the speaker. Whereas other amps will go into protection and shut down, until the device is repaired.

 

[Cos]

No, it is not a tube amp. But most Mac amps use autotransformers and are not direct coupled. An auto transformer is a single coil on an iron core with taps. Their use is controversial. The idea is to give not only DC offset protection which it does, by shunting DC to ground as the transformer is massive with very thick gauge wire in the transformer coil. The main purpose is to allow the amp to produce the same full power into four, eight and 16 ohm loads. The caveat is that the correct tap must be selected for the speaker in use. This means that you have to know the actual impedance of the speaker. As we all know, speaker manufacturers lie more often than not. So you need to have third party measurements to know the true impedance of the speaker in the major power band. If you don't know then you need to get a Dayton speaker tester and measure it yourself. If the manufacturer says the speaker is 8 ohms when in fact it is 4, then if you use the 8 ohm tap you will only get half the power unless you switch it to the 4 ohm tap.

There has been the issue of the resistance of the winding of these autotransformers as if it is on the high side, then the output will tend to follow the impedance curve of the connected speaker. This is the curse of tube amps. However, the damping factor of the unit in question here is 40, indicating an adequately low source resistance.

These auto transformers in order to have adequately low source resistance are massive, heavy and very expensive. Mcintosh seem to have an objection to speaker protection circuits, which I think is nonsense. So they rely on the low resistance of the auto transformer wiring to shunt any DC offset to ground and destroy the output devices of the channel in question rather than the woofer in the speaker. Whereas other amps will go into protection and shut down, until the device is repaired.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I find this interesting and wanted to learn. Case in point the Sopra 2 is rated at 8 Ohms but has extened dips below and as low as 3.1 would not really be considered an 8Ohms speaker?

Where the Perlisten R7t is much more flat and I think is rated at 4Ohms

So the PerListen would be better compatiable with the MAC7200?
- Sopra Measurements taken from SoundStage Network Speaker Measurements
- Perlisten taken from our own Shady J

 

[Verdinut]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I find this interesting and wanted to learn. Case in point the Sopra 2 is rated at 8 Ohms but has extened dips below and as low as 3.1 would not really be considered an 8Ohms speaker?
View attachment 67796

Where the Perlisten R7t is much more flat and I think is rated at 4Ohms

View attachment 67797

So the PerListen would be better compatiable with the MAC7200?
- Sopra Measurements taken from SoundStage Network Speaker Measurements
- Perlisten taken from our own Shady J

Yes, definitely.

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I find this interesting and wanted to learn. Case in point the Sopra 2 is rated at 8 Ohms but has extened dips below and as low as 3.1 would not really be considered an 8Ohms speaker?
View attachment 67796

Where the Perlisten R7t is much more flat and I think is rated at 4Ohms

View attachment 67797

So the PerListen would be better compatiable with the MAC7200?
- Sopra Measurements taken from SoundStage Network Speaker Measurements
- Perlisten taken from our own Shady J

The Sopra is NOT an 8 ohm speaker, that is a lie. Yes, the Perlisten would be the easier load.

 

[Madhuski]

Vote for the KEF vlade's. I replaced my Alcon's audio setup with a KEF blase based setup and have been pretty pleased

 

[mtrot]

Borreson X-6 would be at the upper end of your price range. I heard them at the Southwest Audio Fest in Dallas, pretty impressive. The ribbon tweeter is excellent. The X-3 are about half the price of the X-6 and I believe represent a great value in high end speakers.

X-6

X-3

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would get true full range 20Hz-20kHz Towers of Power like the RBH SFTR Reference Tower for about $8K. Won’t need separate subs.

5” AMT Tweeter, Dual 8” Midrange/woofers and Dual 12” Subwoofers.